The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[CatouttaHell]

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... r_saiyan_3

Oh, and Goku said "better".

The SEG says the Super Saiya-jin 3 boost is 4x and doesn't say the boost varies for anyone, so if SSjin 3 draws out one's powers to their limits then does that mean every Saiya-jin's hidden power is 4x their SSjin 2 power? Considering what the SEG says it's likely it's trying to say it draws out the power of Super Saiya-jin transformations to its limits and that there's nowhere to go beyond this. Otherwise it's a huge contradiction between guidebooks.

And "better" has been used many times in place of "stronger."

[dbgtFO]

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... r_saiyan_3

Oh, and Goku said "better".

Well yeah, but at the end of the story he says they'll get stronger.

[Kaboom]

Considering what the SEG says it's likely it's trying to say it draws out the power of Super Saiya-jin transformations to its limits and that there's nowhere to go beyond this.

Yeah, the rather generic line from the Daizenshuu doesn't have to mean anything beyond, "this is the highest and strongest Super Saiyan transformation."

[jackjack]

The SEG says the Super Saiya-jin 3 boost is 4x and doesn't say the boost varies for anyone, so if SSjin 3 draws out one's powers to their limits then does that mean every Saiya-jin's hidden power is 4x their SSjin 2 power? Considering what the SEG says it's likely it's trying to say it draws out the power of Super Saiya-jin transformations to its limits and that there's nowhere to go beyond this. Otherwise it's a huge contradiction between guidebooks.

And "better" has been used many times in place of "stronger."

Does it matter? The same book still states Gohan's potential > Goku's.

Well yeah, but at the end of the story he says they'll get stronger.

The quote I'm seeing just says better, so please be more specific.

[dbgtFO]

Well yeah, but at the end of the story he says they'll get stronger.

The quote I'm seeing just says better, so please be more specific.

I'm referring to one of Goku's last lines, before the manga ends on page 17:
http://www.daizex.com/multimedia/images ... ations.txt
It's weird though because both Daizex and TripleRach have translated it as Goku saying Uub'll become stronger and not that both of them will, as Goku says in the danish and Viz translations.

[TripleRach]

I'm referring to one of Goku's last lines, before the manga ends on page 17:
http://www.daizex.com/multimedia/images ... ations.txt
It's weird though because both Daizex and TripleRach have translated it as Goku saying Uub'll become stronger and not that both of them will, as Goku says in the danish and Viz translations.

Anything on that version of my site is really, really old and full of errors that I'm (slowly but surely) trying to clean up. For future reference, I would recommend taking the things there with a grain of salt.

That being said, I decided to get the actual book out and take a 2011 look at it. The line is "もっと強くなるぞーっ!!" There's no subject, so the line is most literally something like, "Gonna get stronger!!" It's a judgment call as to who exactly Gokuu is referring to, but in context I (still) think it makes the most sense that it's only referring to Oob, since he's the one that will be trained. I assume Julian probably thought the same thing.

[dbgtFO]

Anything on that version of my site is really, really old and full of errors that I'm (slowly but surely) trying to clean up. For future reference, I would recommend taking the things there with a grain of salt.

Noted.

That being said, I decided to get the actual book out and take a 2011 look at it. The line is "もっと強くなるぞーっ!!" There's no subject, so the line is most literally something like, "Gonna get stronger!!" It's a judgment call as to who exactly Gokuu is referring to, but in context I (still) think it makes the most sense that it's only referring to Oob, since he's the one that will be trained. I assume Julian probably thought the same thing.

Huh, well in that case I agree, in context it does make the most sense that it was solely referring to Uub.

[jackjack]

And the line doesn't even exist in the kanzenban release, if I'm not mistaken. (I was wondering why I couldn't find it in my manga lol.)

[In Brightest Day]

Saiyan arc Yamcha vs. the four remaining Saibamen.

[CatouttaHell]

To each their own. I'm still sticking with the Daizenshuu line meaning SSjin 3 is the limit of Saiya-jin transformations. It actually pulling your power out to its limits makes no sense for two reasons. One is that the Super Exciting Guide says the SSjin 3 boost is 4x for EVERYONE. It doesn't say "this is for Goku" or "this is for Gotenks" just that it's the same for everyone. Something that draws out your hidden power to its limits should not be the exact same boost for everybody.

The second reason being that Goten has maybe the most potential of anybody in the series except for maybe Goku or Gohan. Gotenks is Goten fused with another brat who also has a lot of potential (though arguably much less.) It makes no sense for Goten to fuse with somebody else and be a good deal weaker than Gohan after the fusion's power is drawn to its limits.

[jackjack]

:þ

Guidebooks > fan opinions

[CatouttaHell]

The Super Exciting Guide said SSjin 3 is the same boost for everybody, which clearly means it's not just another "push your power to its limits" power-up. Would you expect Elder Kaioshin's power-up to be the exact same boost for both Goku and Gotenks? When you consider this, it's most likely the Daizenshuu meant that Super Saiya-jin 3 was the limit of Saiya-jin trasnformations, not some magical "push all of your hidden power out" power-up IMO. Otherwise there's a big contradiction in between the two guidebooks.

[jackjack]

You're gonna have to elaborate further, because I ain't seeing this "big contradiction". Your entire post is a head scratcher to me right now.

Would you expect Elder Kaioshin's power-up to be the exact same boost for both Goku and Gotenks?

Why is this relevant?

[CatouttaHell]

IF the Daizenshuu means that Super Saiya-jin 3 brings the power of a Saiya-jin to its limits, why would it be a 4x boost for everybody? Something that does that should not have the same boost for everybody. Hence why I go for the "SSjin 3 is the limit of Saiya-jin transformations" interpretation.

[Rocketman]

Perhaps Saiyan bodies hit their limits at 4x their SS2 power?

[Kid Buu]

Saiyan arc Yamcha vs. the four remaining Saibamen.

This is only if the Saiyaman refuse to self-destruct right? Otherwise, the later would win.

[jackjack]

The 4x boost just means you still have 75% of your full power hidden inside if you have SSJ2. No contradiction. The first thing the book tells us is SSJ3 being the strongest Super Saiyan transformation, and then it goes on to tell us something else only to imply what we've already been told? Not buying.

[CashmanX]

23rd Budoukai Goku vs Ulquiorra 2nd release.

[CatouttaHell]

The 4x boost just means you still have 75% of your full power hidden inside if you have SSJ2. No contradiction. The first thing the book tells us is SSJ3 being the strongest Super Saiyan transformation, and then it goes on to tell us something else only to imply what we've already been told? Not buying.

Doesn't make any sense to me man. Not to mention that would imply that Gotenks, who should have absurd potential due to being the fusion of the two prodigies Goten and Trunks, trained his power to his limits in one week. And that the fusion of Goten and Trunks at his limits is below just Gohan at his limits.

Not to mention Goku said in the manga that he'd become much better and told Vegeta that they'd have to train to be able to beat Pure Boo one-on-one. What else could he mean by those quotes if he was at his limits and couldn't get any stronger? "Better" means stronger. Vegeta said SSjin 2 Gohan was "better" when he defeated Cell when he was just standing there in front of Kibito. He hadn't seen him fight or do anything yet. There's at least a few more other instances in the manga where someone says "better" and obviously means stronger.

[jackjack]

Yeah, it was their fusion that hit the peak by unlocking SSJ3 quickly, not themselves individually. And Gohan was brought well above his limits, so for all we know his limits could've been below Gotenks' (but still above Goku's, I might add).

Better can be used when talking about strength, sure, but that's not the only thing that can get better; 16 describing Vegeta as better than Cell at everything comes to mind. Goku just needs to improve the efficiency of his of ki-leaking form, he would be able to defeat kid Boo without Vegeta's help. (Heck, he already thinks he can get the job done alone prior to fighting Boo, after which he only complains about how his opponent keeps regenerating back to full health, not that strength is too much to handle, whereas he himself has a ki drain to worry about.)