Buu Saga Info

[Mjb1985]

Yea I'm not taking it that way at all. I think you are just offering your opinion and so am I and we are trying to gather facts and see what that could possibly determine. This is some nice clean fun.

Kibito's teleporting is interesting.

Goku suggesting that he could possibly find someone's ki on New Namek is interesting as well.

[Undertaker]

The guidebooks clear up a lot of ambiguity in the Buu Saga, but not all. Important things:

East Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo, which would logically make him low to mid Cell Games MSS tier.

Kibito is about equal to base Gohan.

Kibito is said to be nothing compared to East Kaioshin, further supporting the base saiyans being nowhere near Kaioshin.

Gohan was a SS2 when fighting Dabura.

Vegeta is stronger than pre-ROSAT Gotenks, but weaker than post (duh). Likely referring to SS Gotenks and SS2 Vegeta in both cases.

It refers to base form and he surpassed Vegeta but the others as well after Rosat. Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin. The Daiz is full of flaws. Piccolo said it so they use it like Goten and Gohan being even while sparring so it says they are equals. Kaioshin wanted to gang up on Yakon who is barely ahead of Base Goku. Kaioshin said he might not win without the Z Fighters meaning he might not be able to beat Pui Pui while Vegeta beat him handily

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura is shown in the Manga. Kibito is weaker than Base Gohan. Dabura beat him in a sec. SSJ Gohan is far stronger than Kaioshin since he pulled out the Z Sword. The guidebooks are wrong.

[Undertaker]

@ Undertaker and Mjb1985, the manga never shows nor states Buu fighting the Kaioshins in the Kaioshin Realm. It's just as likely that the Kaioshins sensed Buu causing destruction in the mortal realm, and went to stop him themselves. Buu also couldn't teleport then, so how would he have gotten there?
The anime does show him fighting in the Kaioshin Realm, but if you want to include that, you need to include Buu sensing Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 as well, which validates the point I'm trying to make.

I don't think Piccolo can sense Kaioshin's ki. No one else can.

The new movie states that gods have a special ki that cannot normally be sensed, but remember, Piccolo was once God of Earth. It makes sense for him to be able to sense Kaioshin's power while the others cannot.

Kami is not a god. He is just titled as the god of Earth but he is not a real god. Piccolo just knew he was a great god but he never sensed his ki.

[Mjb1985]

While I agree with everything you said regarding power , it doesn't mean the guidebooks are wrong about everything. Your interpretation is different from that and there's nothing wrong with that , but there's no right or wrong here. Kami is stated to be God numerous times as well as Dende.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin. The Daiz is full of flaws.

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura is shown in the Manga. Kibito is weaker than Base Gohan. Dabura beat him in a sec. SSJ Gohan is far stronger than Kaioshin since he pulled out the Z Sword. The guidebooks are wrong.

Yeah yeah I know, guidebooks with approval of author <<<<<< bullshit fan opinions.

Also Kaioshin totally didn't hold down SS2 Gohan with telekinesis. And Chiaotzu totally couldn't do that when his enemy was six times stronger than him. And Kaioshin totally knew how strong Pui Pui was. And he totally didn't sense SS2 Gohan.
.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kaioshin was able to feel the Earthlings when they got killed by Super Buu while Goku was in disbeliefe so you are disproven again. The teleport he used has nothing to do with ki sensing. He went there because that was the last place he was and he saw Kaioshin.

Kaioshin was also unable to tell the power gap between Pui-Pui and Vegeta, and between Yakon and Goku. He's unreliable.
I think you need to read up on what we've gone over in this thread over the last couple of hours. We've addressed the point on teleportation quite a few times already.

The guidebooks clear up a lot of ambiguity in the Buu Saga, but not all. Important things:

East Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo, which would logically make him low to mid Cell Games MSS tier.

Kibito is about equal to base Gohan.

Kibito is said to be nothing compared to East Kaioshin, further supporting the base saiyans being nowhere near Kaioshin.

Gohan was a SS2 when fighting Dabura.

Vegeta is stronger than pre-ROSAT Gotenks, but weaker than post (duh). Likely referring to SS Gotenks and SS2 Vegeta in both cases.

It refers to base form and he surpassed Vegeta but the others as well after Rosat. Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin. The Daiz is full of flaws. Piccolo said it so they use it like Goten and Gohan being even while sparring so it says they are equals. Kaioshin wanted to gang up on Yakon who is barely ahead of Base Goku. Kaioshin said he might not win without the Z Fighters meaning he might not be able to beat Pui Pui while Vegeta beat him handily

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura is shown in the Manga. Kibito is weaker than Base Gohan. Dabura beat him in a sec. SSJ Gohan is far stronger than Kaioshin since he pulled out the Z Sword. The guidebooks are wrong.

First, lose the hostility. This is a manga/anime forum; there is no reason to be hostile here.
Second, it just says Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta after training. It does not specify which forms.
Third, unless you believe that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo, there is no way that Kaioshin would lose to Pui-Pui.
Fourth, we don't know if the Z sword is dependent on strength or not. I personally believe that it was cursed to not be able to be lifted by Kaioshins.
Fifth, you may not put much stock in the guidebooks, but others do. No need to bash them for doing so.

[Undertaker]

While I agree with everything you said regarding power , it doesn't mean the guidebooks are wrong about everything. Your interpretation is different from that and there's nothing wrong with that , but there's no right or wrong here. Kami is stated to be God numerous times as well as Dende.

They are titled as god because they are the ones who se everything above Earth but they are not real gods like the Kaioshin.

[Kamiccolo9]

While I agree with everything you said regarding power , it doesn't mean the guidebooks are wrong about everything. Your interpretation is different from that and there's nothing wrong with that , but there's no right or wrong here. Kami is stated to be God numerous times as well as Dende.

They are titled as god because they are the ones who se everything above Earth but they are not real gods like the Kaioshin.

Says who? God usually means god. Unless there is some other definition I am unaware of. Kami was seen to be able to freely move between realms, which no normal living character has been able to do.

[Mjb1985]

I don't think that guidebook + authors opinion trumps your opinion. Anyone can have their opinion on any subject and it's their opinion. No one is right or wrong , just different. There are some factual things but generally what we've been talking about is highly speculative and far, far away from strictly factually speaking. So chill out man. Give your opinion, state why and play the game.

[Undertaker]

Kaioshin was able to feel the Earthlings when they got killed by Super Buu while Goku was in disbeliefe so you are disproven again. The teleport he used has nothing to do with ki sensing. He went there because that was the last place he was and he saw Kaioshin.

Kaioshin was also unable to tell the power gap between Pui-Pui and Vegeta, and between Yakon and Goku. He's unreliable.
I think you need to read up on what we've gone over in this thread over the last couple of hours. We've addressed the point on teleportation quite a few times already.

The guidebooks clear up a lot of ambiguity in the Buu Saga, but not all. Important things:

East Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo, which would logically make him low to mid Cell Games MSS tier.

Kibito is about equal to base Gohan.

Kibito is said to be nothing compared to East Kaioshin, further supporting the base saiyans being nowhere near Kaioshin.

Gohan was a SS2 when fighting Dabura.

Vegeta is stronger than pre-ROSAT Gotenks, but weaker than post (duh). Likely referring to SS Gotenks and SS2 Vegeta in both cases.

It refers to base form and he surpassed Vegeta but the others as well after Rosat. Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin. The Daiz is full of flaws. Piccolo said it so they use it like Goten and Gohan being even while sparring so it says they are equals. Kaioshin wanted to gang up on Yakon who is barely ahead of Base Goku. Kaioshin said he might not win without the Z Fighters meaning he might not be able to beat Pui Pui while Vegeta beat him handily

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura is shown in the Manga. Kibito is weaker than Base Gohan. Dabura beat him in a sec. SSJ Gohan is far stronger than Kaioshin since he pulled out the Z Sword. The guidebooks are wrong.

First, lose the hostility. This is a manga/anime forum; there is no reason to be hostile here.
Second, it just says Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta after training. It does not specify which forms.
Third, unless you believe that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo, there is no way that Kaioshin would lose to Pui-Pui.
Fourth, we don't know if the Z sword is dependent on strength or not. I personally believe that it was cursed to not be able to be lifted by Kaioshins.
Fifth, you may not put much stock in the guidebooks, but others do. No need to bash them for doing so.

Kaioshin never knew how strong Vegeta was. Regardless, you are making invalid points. He can feel everything which is why he can teleport anywhere. That's shown when he feels the Earthlings were vanished. You are disproven and nothing was addressed.

It says Gotenks is surpassed Vegeta and the others

Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta.

Probably refers to Base Gotenks as it shows his image next to it and we know Base Gotenks was implied to be greater than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta before Rosat

Piccolo is just stronger than Kaioshin. Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin.

Conjuncture. Nothing says the Kaioshins were cursed. The same Kaioshin said that Gohan has unbelievable power which is why he wanted him to free the Z Sword. They talk about power.

Guidebooks contradict the Manga. They can be used when they don't but many parts do so it's stupid to use them

[Bussani]

Kibito's ability allows him to teleport to any planet. So Buu can teleport to any planet he wants. We just need to figure out if its based on ki sensing or not.

Like Kamiccolo, I think if he knew where he was going, he could just go. Like, "I'm on Earth now, and I want to go to the Kaioshin realm. I know where that is," zip, he goes there. If he wanted to go to Goku and didn't know where he was, on the other hand, he'd have to sense him somehow. Kibito(shin) has his godly powers to see across the universe, of course, and I'm not sure Buu could copy those just by watching him teleport. But who knows? Buu makes the impossible possible.

In the end, I wouldn't question it if Buu had sensed them in the Kaioshin realm. That was my first thought when I originally read the manga, anyway, because of how he seems to look around before realizing where he needed to go. But as always, it's not the only possibility.

Goku isn't sure if he can teleport to New Namek due to their low chi and distance. Seems possible if they had high chi he could. New Namek must be awfully far.

Yeah, Piccolo's even surprised that Goku seems to think he could feel their ki from so far away. In the end, it isn't so much the distance or the small ki that stumps him, but simply not knowing which direction to focus in, which Kaio helps him out with. I think Goku's ki sensing gets pretty impressive as the story goes on.

I like to compare ki sensing to a sense we already understand, such as hearing. Hearing and voices are a really good analogy, since, like ki, everyone has a unique voice that can be quiet or loud, calm or angry. And like ki sensing, hearing can vary from person to person--or to go beyond persons, we could say that a dog can pick up on a voice from much farther away than a human can. There are other little similarities, like how picking out a familiar voice in a crowd is easier than picking out an unfamiliar one, or how you can hear something better if you stop and actually focus on it than if you're distracted or not thinking about it.

[Undertaker]

While I agree with everything you said regarding power , it doesn't mean the guidebooks are wrong about everything. Your interpretation is different from that and there's nothing wrong with that , but there's no right or wrong here. Kami is stated to be God numerous times as well as Dende.

They are titled as god because they are the ones who se everything above Earth but they are not real gods like the Kaioshin.

Says who? God usually means god. Unless there is some other definition I am unaware of. Kami was seen to be able to freely move between realms, which no normal living character has been able to do.

They are not real gods. They are just titled like gods. Dende is a mere Namekian, he doesn't become a god just because he was Kami's replacement.

[dbzfan7]

For the Z sword theory I'm gonna use a video game (yes it isn't official, but it kinda supports the whole Kaioshins can't pull out the Z sword theory)

In Shin Budokai 2 (In Trunks future world) when Gohan (past) tried to pull out the Z Sword he couldn't because only the Gohan of Trunks' time could do it. When Future Gohan tries he pulls it out easily even though he is weaker then the past Gohan.

[Kamiccolo9]

Even if Kibito could "feel everything and teleport anywhere," that just supports my theory. Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta and teleported to them. He didn't need to sense their ki to teleport, but he did need to sense them to know where to teleport. Otherwise he would just be jumping around blindly looking for the highest powers he could. Incidentally, this is exactly what happened in the anime. You can tell he sensed them, because right before teleporting, he's looking around into space, then he stops and grins, and jumps right to them. He obviously found them.

They are not real gods. They are just titled like gods. Dende is a mere Namekian, he doesn't become a god just because he was Kami's replacement.

So tell me then. What defines a god in the Dragonball universe? Other than being specifically referred to as a god multiple times by various characters, including Kaio himself?

[Mjb1985]

Kami is a god and has god eyes or he just magically can see things others can't from the lookout. If Kami has eyes good enough to see everything on the planet , wouldn't the Kaioshin be able to see everything in the universe? That is , technically his job.

I get the feeling Kibito just looks at something and bam he's there. Now regarding Kid Buu , perhaps he inherited that ability. How pointless would it be for Kid Buu to be able to teleport anywhere be could see and only be able to see 1,000 yards? That would be a pointless technique then.


Kaioshin does specifically mention strength as his reason for getting Gohan to get the sword.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kami is a god and has god eyes or he just magically can see things others can't from the lookout. If Kami has eyes good enough to see everything on the planet , wouldn't the Kaioshin be able to see everything in the universe? That is , technically his job.

I get the feeling Kibito just looks at something and bam he's there. Now regarding Kid Buu , perhaps he inherited that ability. How pointless would it be for Kid Buu to be able to teleport anywhere be could see and only be able to see 1,000 yards? That would be a pointless technique then.


Kaioshin does specifically mention strength as his reason for getting Gohan to get the sword.

Buu should be able to teleport anywhere. But unless he senses who he's looking for, he is stuck randomly teleporting to different places until he finds them. In the anime, he teleported to the places with the highest powers until he sensed Goku and Vegeta.

[Mjb1985]

I think Buu can just look and find them. He doesn't have to sense , although he can do that too. I don't think Kibito requires sensing to teleport. Kaioshin doesn't seem to worry about the Namekians low level of chi.

Kaioshin looks , he sees and he's there. More or less I assume.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think Buu can just look and find them. He doesn't have to sense , although he can do that too. I don't think Kibito requires sensing to teleport. Kaioshin doesn't seem to worry about the Namekians low level of chi.

Kaioshin looks , he sees and he's there. More or less I assume.

That's how characters in Dragonball find people though. They sense ki. No one has ever just "known" where another fighter was by simply looking around.
And once again, I'm not saying that he needs to sense ki to teleport, but unless he does so, he doesn't know where to teleport.
And what's to say that he can't sense them? Goku was sensed by accident, but he was almost literally gushing out ki, and we never see a character actually try to sense into or out of the Kaioshin Realm until Pure Buu.

[dbzfan7]

Why did this become about teleporting? Still better then the church of Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why did this become about teleporting? Still better then the church of Goku.

Haha, well, anything's better than Super Buu vs Pure Buu debates