How strong was Dabura?

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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:03 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:YOU can THINK all you want. You have 0 proof backing up your claims.
The same goes for you though.
You can't argue that when you're trying to convey a baseless theory. You're trying to convince me Toriyama did in fact contemplate a design change. In order to do that you need proof. I have no reason to believe he contemplated a design change, just like I have no reason to believe Krillin can fart mustard out his nipples.
Saiga wrote:The qualities of a Super Saiyan 2 are themselves only what YOU think they are.
No, no they're not. SSJ2 has staples in it's design laid out through the entire series.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:05 pm

Saiga wrote:The qualities of a Super Saiyan 2 are themselves only what YOU think they are.
Well...I'm not sure I would go that far. They are pretty consistently drawn with sparks after about the point where Goku does his thing for Fat Buu, and also during the Goku vs. Vegeta fight. I'm just thinking that the sparks didn't show for Gohan because Mr. Toriyama wanted an artistic statement showing that Gohan was having trouble accessing his full power.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:You're trying to convince me Toriyama did in fact contemplate a design change
Actually what I was trying to do was point out that Gohan not having sparks wasn't proof that he wasn't an SSJ2 since Mr. Toriyama was tinkering with the design.
Last edited by Fionordequester on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:05 pm

It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks :mrgreen: .
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:07 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks :mrgreen: .
Except perhaps Gohan, while Mr. Toriyama had neither given a name to SSJ2 yet. And then there's the theory that he was changing the SSJ design when the tournament happened, so he could've gone back and forth on that.

Anyways, I think I'm done here for now. Until you can come up with proof that Gohan looking different against Dabura wasn't just a simple case of Mr. Toriyama trying to decide how to draw SSJ2 Gohan, we're only going in circles here.
Last edited by Fionordequester on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:08 pm

No, you have no proof there. It's a baseless assumption that goes against every time a SSJ2 shows up in this series. You have no say here. You need to learn what baseless means. My viewpoint is based on all the other times a SSJ2 has shown up in this series. I have proof, you don't.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:17 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks :mrgreen: .
This, again, isn't a fact, it's an interpretation. Vegeta at the end of his fight with Goku has no sparks, and even though people claim he powered down to Super Saiyan, Goku was still a Super Saiyan 2 right up until Vegeta knocked him out. Even after he's knocked out and has no sparks, he's still a Super Saiyan 2 before he reverts to base.

The only official material that claims that sparks make the SS2 is the GT Perfect Files, which actually make a mistake in this claim (they say no-one in GT turned SS2 because they lacked sparks, yet we see Goku clearly transform into one) which really hurts their position on this.

It's funny, the people who say Gohan wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 sound exactly like the GT Perfect Files do on the matter - "Gohan/Goku wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 because of the lack of sparks, despite him being a Super Saiyan 2 being confirmed by Daizenshuu 7/His fight with Rilld".

Unless you can find an official statement that sparks make the Super Saiyan 2, that applies to the manga and doesn't contradict itself, what you're saying is your interpretation.
Last edited by Saiga on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Ignoring all the guidebooks and other self-conflicted extra sources, this is what I see.
  • [1] At the tournament, Gohan clearly says that he's going to use his "above Super Saiyan" form, and then has a very specific and plainly-drawn appearance when he uses it.
    [2] A short time later, he transforms to fight Dabra, but does not have the same appearance previously attributed with "above Super Saiyan" this time.
    [3] A little later still, Goku and Vegeta have the same appearance as Gohan against Dabra, but then transform and adopt the "above Super Saiyan" appearance. They are specifically noted to be fighting at such an "above Super Saiyan" level.
    [4] Some time later again, Goku does this, adding further clarification to the whole thing.
I don't know about anyone else, but to me this just SCREAMS "intentional design consistency."
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Super Saiyan 2 aura is accompanied by sparks in over 90% of the panels. Imo it's safe to say no sparks, no dice.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:Super Saiyan 2 aura is accompanied by sparks in over 90% of the panels. Imo it's safe to say no sparks, no dice.
It's also just as safe to say sparks aren't necessary, because there is evidence to support that viewpoint as well.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Saiga wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks :mrgreen: .
This, again, isn't a fact, it's an interpretation. Vegeta at the end of his fight with Goku has no sparks, and even though people claim he powered down to Super Saiyan, Goku was still a Super Saiyan 2 right up until Vegeta knocked him out. Even after he's knocked out and has no sparks, he's still a Super Saiyan 2 before he reverts to base.

The only official material that claims that sparks make the SS2 is the GT Perfect Files, which actually make a mistake in this claim (they say no-one in GT turned SS2 because they lacked sparks, yet we see Goku clearly transform into one) which really hurts their position on this.

It's funny, the people who say Gohan wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 sound exactly like the GT Perfect Files do on the matter - "Gohan/Goku wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 because of the lack of sparks, despite him being a Super Saiyan 2 being confirmed by Daizenshuu 7/His fight with Rilld".

Unless you can find an official statement that sparks make the Super Saiyan 2, that applies to the manga and doesn't contradict itself, what you're saying is your interpretation.
Saiga, goddammit, stop being logical!
You have no say here. You need to learn what baseless means. My viewpoint is based on all the other times a SSJ2 has shown up in this series. I have proof, you don't.
He has basic story logic and statements as well as official backing. You have your own interpretation of certain visual elements, which you say are above official statements on the matter, and insult anyone who disagrees. Then you go and insult people who disagree with official material in the very next breath.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:26 pm

I don't think there is any evidence that suggests sparks are not required.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:30 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:I don't think there is any evidence that suggests sparks are not required.
Daizenshuu 7 stating a sparkless Gohan was Super Saiyan 2, sparks being missing occasionally in the manga, and sparks never being said to be required in the first place.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:34 pm

Saiga wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks :mrgreen: .
This, again, isn't a fact, it's an interpretation. Vegeta at the end of his fight with Goku has no sparks, and even though people claim he powered down to Super Saiyan, Goku was still a Super Saiyan 2 right up until Vegeta knocked him out. Even after he's knocked out and has no sparks, he's still a Super Saiyan 2 before he reverts to base.

The only official material that claims that sparks make the SS2 is the GT Perfect Files, which actually make a mistake in this claim (they say no-one in GT turned SS2 because they lacked sparks, yet we see Goku clearly transform into one) which really hurts their position on this.

It's funny, the people who say Gohan wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 sound exactly like the GT Perfect Files do on the matter - "Gohan/Goku wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 because of the lack of sparks, despite him being a Super Saiyan 2 being confirmed by Daizenshuu 7/His fight with Rilld".

Unless you can find an official statement that sparks make the Super Saiyan 2, that applies to the manga and doesn't contradict itself, what you're saying is your interpretation.
Really? You wanna argue that just because Goku and Vegeta didn't have sparks for a few panels, sparks aren't required for a SSJ2? Yeah ok. Yeah, the anime is pretty inconsistent with the sparks, what's your point? The anime isn't the manga. No, I don't think I need a guide book to tell me what's shown in the manga :| . Seriously you don't need a guide book to hold your hand do you? I'm not trying to come off as rude here, but you're being completely blind here.
RandomGuy96 wrote:He has basic story logic and statements as well as official backing. You have your own interpretation of certain visual elements, which you say are above official statements on the matter, and insult anyone who disagrees. Then you go and insult people who disagree with official material in the very next breath.
I'll argue with official material when it blatantly contradicts the manga. The Daizenshuu aren't the end all be all sources of information. It makes mistakes like Tenshinhan fighting C-19.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:37 pm

That may be enough evidence for you but for me there is no substitute for the manga. I don't agree with that statement in the guidebook. The manga is clear in that Gohan is a Super Saiyan imo.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:39 pm

I like how every time someone says "I'm not trying to be rude", it's immediately followed up by "but you're the biggest piece of poop I ever saw".
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:40 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote: Really? You wanna argue that just because Goku and Vegeta didn't have sparks for a few panels, sparks aren't required for a SSJ2? Yeah ok. Yeah, the anime is pretty inconsistent with the sparks, what's your point? The anime isn't the manga. No, I don't think I need a guide book to tell me what's shown in the manga :| . Seriously you don't need a guide book to hold your hand do you? I'm not trying to come off as rude here, but you're being completely blind here.
It's not just that it's a few panels, but also the context implies that they didn't have sparks because they were weakened - which would fit into Gohan lacking them. And I wasn't using the anime in relation to the manga, but to the GT Perfect Files.

The manga does not ever state that sparks are a requirement. That's what I'm talking about. Finding a guidebook that does say that is different to just looking at the manga, so there's no need to be so rude. And how can you not think using such remarks as "holding my hand" and calling me blind are anything but rude?
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:43 pm

I suggest reading the manga again, their sparks don't disappear upon taking a beating :| . GT Perfect Files are based on the anime...
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:59 pm

Yea I don't think weakened Ssj2 makes sense. First of Gohan would be at full strength so he wouldn't be weakened and I doubt there is any requirement of power that allows you to have Ssj2 have sparks or not. That doesn't make any sense to me.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:03 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I suggest reading the manga again, their sparks don't disappear upon taking a beating :| . GT Perfect Files are based on the anime...
According to you.

And yes, I know about the GT Perfect Files being based on the anime. That doesn't really mean anything, though. I'm saying they can't be relied on because they're proven wrong by the very same topic they're talking about.
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Re: How strong was Dabura?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:08 pm

Saiga wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I suggest reading the manga again, their sparks don't disappear upon taking a beating :| . GT Perfect Files are based on the anime...
According to you.

And yes, I know about the GT Perfect Files being based on the anime. That doesn't really mean anything, though. I'm saying they can't be relied on because they're proven wrong by the very same topic they're talking about.
How is it according to me? You have eyes, don't you notice the sparks? they're there, you can't just pretend they don't exist to satisfy your personal preference. Wait, you want me to give you guide proof for what reason? If you're attempting to invalidate guidebooks, why would guide proof be any good to you?
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