Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[h0kuten]

Clearly Beerus used a-lot more power against Goku.

All you're showing is one scene of Beerus using one flick to take out someone that we know already is weaker than Ssj3 Goku. That's hardly anything special at all. There's arguably more force in the blows he used to take out Gohan and Gotenks than there were for the ones that took out Goku, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.

Besides, Buu's actually irritated him a fair bit with not giving him a pudding, so if anything, he's going to hold back less against Buu than he would Goku, not more.

Actually I'm proving Beerus used more power against Goku to debunk the 'Vegeta had better feats', clearly he didn't. My argument isn't baseless or driven by speculation because I brought actual evidence to the table.

[Darkprince410]

Clearly Beerus used a-lot more power against Goku.

All you're showing is one scene of Beerus using one flick to take out someone that we know already is weaker than Ssj3 Goku. That's hardly anything special at all. There's arguably more force in the blows he used to take out Gohan and Gotenks than there were for the ones that took out Goku, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.

Besides, Buu's actually irritated him a fair bit with not giving him a pudding, so if anything, he's going to hold back less against Buu than he would Goku, not more.

Actually I'm proving Beerus used more power against Goku to debunk the 'Vegeta had better feats', clearly he didn't. My argument isn't baseless or driven by speculation because I brought actual evidence to the table.

But your feats are valueless, since you can't tell by Beerus's actions which he's putting more power behind. Given that we know the character's penchant for destruction when he gets angry, the fact that he's angry during his brief encounter with Buu and the others would actually support the idea he's using more power against them than he was against Goku.

Alternately, he could be varying his strength in relation to how powerful he can tell his enemy is, so that would completely devalue the example you gave in terms of feats. Because let's face it, any blow powerful enough to incapacitate the likes of Gohan would effortlessly kill the likes of weaker characters like Kuririn.

[h0kuten]

The feats don't show Beerus using more power against the Z-Fighters than with Goku, they show the opposite.

Androids don't have Chi and 18 attacked from behind Beerus, so he couldn't follow her movements. At best he reacted to hearing her. Debunking that theory.

Also, let's face this, a blow from Buu should have killed Satan but it didn't.

[Darkprince410]

The feats don't show Beerus using more power against the Z-Fighters than with Goku, they show the opposite.

Androids don't have Chi and 18 attacked from behind Beerus, so he couldn't follow her movements. At best he reacted to hearing her. Debunking that theory.

Also, let's face this, a blow from Buu should have killed Satan but it didn't.

The feats don't show that Beerus used more power against Goku than he did the Z Senshi either. The feats itself are 100% inconclusive, so there's no reason to use them as facts.

[h0kuten]

The feats don't show Beerus using more power against the Z-Fighters than with Goku, they show the opposite.

Androids don't have Chi and 18 attacked from behind Beerus, so he couldn't follow her movements. At best he reacted to hearing her. Debunking that theory.

Also, let's face this, a blow from Buu should have killed Satan but it didn't.

The feats don't show that Beerus used more power against Goku than he did the Z Senshi either. The feats itself are 100% inconclusive, so there's no reason to use them as facts.

Do you have feats of Gohan out performing Vegeta? Or Gotenks receiving something more dangerous than several kicks to the size of the head (which can actually kill someone) or punches to the face?

[Darkprince410]

The feats don't show Beerus using more power against the Z-Fighters than with Goku, they show the opposite.

Androids don't have Chi and 18 attacked from behind Beerus, so he couldn't follow her movements. At best he reacted to hearing her. Debunking that theory.

Also, let's face this, a blow from Buu should have killed Satan but it didn't.

The feats don't show that Beerus used more power against Goku than he did the Z Senshi either. The feats itself are 100% inconclusive, so there's no reason to use them as facts.

Bring feats to prove your point.

My point is, is that there's literally no way to tell how much strength he's putting in to some of Beerus's blows, however you look at it. He's not announcing how much power he's using or anything like that, so it's mere speculation that he was using more power against Goku than he was against Gohan and Gotenks. One can easily argue that since Gohan and Gotenks took actual "real" blows from Beerus (a kick, slaps, etc) that he was putting more effort into them than he was against Goku.

Besides, no matter how you look at it, he was holding back when he was hitting some of the weaker individuals, so he was clearly fluctuating his strength in relation to theirs. Just in the same way that Mr. Satan survived Buu's punch, the Z Senshi are surviving Beerus's blows because he's pulling his punches to not outright kill them.

[h0kuten]

Hercule survived Buu's attacks. Clearly not everything is meant to be studied down to molecule level. The feats are there so we can determine who is stronger than who. It's really as simple as that.

Tienshinhan~Tossed aside
18~ Chop to neck
Piccolo~2 Pressure Points
Good Buu~Shoved + headbutt
Gotenks Ssj Post~Spanked a dozen times
Ultimate Gohan~ Heavy kick to stomach
Vegeta ~kicked several times to the face plus several punches to the face

As you can see they progress in accordance to strength.

Also do you see the huge distinction between Vegeta (whose proven to be 4x Goku's inferior) and everyone else?

[Darkprince410]

(the H-word) survived Buu's attacks. Clearly not everything is meant to be studied down to molecule level. The feats are there so we can determine who is stronger than who. It's really as simple as that.

Tenshinhan~Tossed aside
18~ Chop to neck
Piccolo~2 Pressure Points
Good Buu~Shoved + headbutt
Gotenks Ssj Post~Spanked a dozen times
Ultimate Gohan~ Heavy kick to stomach
Vegeta ~kicked several times to the face plus several punches to the face

As you can see they progress in accordance to strength.

Also do you see the huge distinction between Vegeta (whose proven to be 4x Goku's inferior) and everyone else?

But you can't tell at all how much force was behind any of those blows. If you go by what you're describing, then Gohan is undoubtedly stronger than Goku, since Gohan took a heavy kick to the stomach after getting his head slammed against Mr. Buu's head, whereas Goku took a simple flick to the forehead and a weak chop to the back of the neck. So if you're going by how the feats play out, then Gohan was definitively stronger than Goku during Battle of Gods before the God ritual, so your point is moot.

[h0kuten]

(the H-word) survived Buu's attacks. Clearly not everything is meant to be studied down to molecule level. The feats are there so we can determine who is stronger than who. It's really as simple as that.

Tenshinhan~Tossed aside
18~ Chop to neck
Piccolo~2 Pressure Points
Good Buu~Shoved + headbutt
Gotenks Ssj Post~Spanked a dozen times
Ultimate Gohan~ Heavy kick to stomach
Vegeta ~kicked several times to the face plus several punches to the face

As you can see they progress in accordance to strength.

Also do you see the huge distinction between Vegeta (whose proven to be 4x Goku's inferior) and everyone else?

But you can't tell at all how much force was behind any of those blows. If you go by what you're describing, then Gohan is undoubtedly stronger than Goku, since Gohan took a heavy kick to the stomach after getting his head slammed against Mr. Buu's head, whereas Goku took a simple flick to the forehead and a weak chop to the back of the neck. So if you're going by how the feats play out, then Gohan was definitively stronger than Goku during Battle of Gods before the God ritual, so your point is moot.

There was only enough force for us to determine who is stronger than who.

Gohan is already proven to be far weaker than Vegeta Ssj2 whose also confirmed to be 4x Goku's inferior.

[Darkprince410]

There was only enough force for us to determine who is stronger than who.

Gohan is already proven to be far weaker than Vegeta Ssj2 whose also confirmed to be 4x Goku's inferior.

No, there isn't enough force for us to determine who is stronger than who. You only say there was enough force because you want those feats to be a legitimate indicator as to who was stronger than who among the Z Senshi. Beerus was clearly and undeniably altering how much force he was putting into his blows in order to keep from killing everyone, so you can't reasonably say that he was putting the same amount of effort into his blows across the board. Given your logic, Bulma must be extremely powerful if she was able to survive a slap to the face from him, when in reality we know that she survived because he pulled his punch. So there is no reason at all to assume that he wasn't pulling his punches proportionally for everyone else as well, and as such, you don't know whether or not Beerus put considerably more force behind the blows he inflicted on Gohan than he did on Vegeta.

The only way their battle against Beerus would work to determine the strengths of the Z Senshi in relation to one another is if it's established that Beerus was using the same amount of strength all throughout. However, there's no evidence supporting that he was, and plenty supporting that he was pulling his punches according to how strong his opponent was.

[dbgtFO]

Looking at those gifs of Goku vs Beerus and Mr. Buu vs Beerus, it looks like Beerus is more powerful against Buu, thanks to him actually having an aura, while not at any point against Goku(pre God), Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks

[Birusu16]

Looking at those gifs of Goku vs Beerus and Mr. Buu vs Beerus, it looks like Beerus is more powerful against Buu, thanks to him actually having an aura, while not at any point against Goku(pre God), Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks

I don't really think that means anything. He was lacking an aura multiple times during his fight against SSJG Goku yet he was using far more power against him than he ever did against SSJ3 Goku or the Z-Fighters.

[MisterGuyMan]

Has this been discussed?

Because this completely clears it up for me. Goku is stronger than Gohan and has been since the defeat of Kid Buu. Roshi also points out the enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku not Gohan. I rewatched the Beers/Vegeta fight and Vegeta was blocking and dodging attacks too. Beers' finger flick against SS3 Goku created craters on the ground on a hyper dense planet. There's really no reason to assume Gohan was tanking more powerful hits.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Has this been discussed?

Because this completely clears it up for me. Goku is stronger than Gohan and has been since the defeat of Kid Buu. Roshi also points out the enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku not Gohan. I rewatched the Beers/Vegeta fight and Vegeta was blocking and dodging attacks too. Beers' finger flick against SS3 Goku created craters on the ground on a hyper dense planet. There's really no reason to assume Gohan was tanking more powerful hits.

I guess this clears up my interpretation of Goku/Vegeta becoming stronger during/after the battle of Boo by a large portion. Beerus did say that they have the highest potential. My point is, Gohan/Gotenks were stronger than Goku/Vegeta during the Evil Boo portions. But during, or at the very least, after Pure boo, miles of their potential tapped in causing them to surpass that league of power. This can also possibly clarify that Pure Boo was at least stronger than Evil Boo (Base). Goku never did actually say Gohan/Gotenks can beat Pure boo, only that they come and aid them in the fight. Though Pure boo being weaker than Evil boo (base) does still work with this.

[Truhan]

I have a totally made up explanation:
- Old Kaioshin told Goku that he should fuse with the earrings at base, and only then transform into SSJ.
- Vegito was a SSJ when he defused into Base Vegeta and Base Goku, which means they are 50 times stronger than they were.

End of story xD

[Darkprince410]

Has this been discussed?
Because this completely clears it up for me. Goku is stronger than Gohan and has been since the defeat of Kid Buu. Roshi also points out the enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku not Gohan. I rewatched the Beers/Vegeta fight and Vegeta was blocking and dodging attacks too. Beers' finger flick against SS3 Goku created craters on the ground on a hyper dense planet. There's really no reason to assume Gohan was tanking more powerful hits.

The #1 can be taken multiple ways though. For example, when Goku was actually fighting Pure Buu and Vegeta was having his inner monologue about motives for fighting, he referred to Goku as being #1 there as well, but he proclaimed Goku as being #1 there not because Goku was the strongest, but because he was the best fighter, and the motives he had for combat.

In addition, given that Goku didn't beat Buu with his own strength at all (he used the Genki Dama to actually defeat him), then it'd make no sense for Vegeta's statement to be in reference to Goku's actual strength. It'd be like, if in the Freeza Saga, Kuririn took out Freeza with a ki-enzan, and then Vegeta started calling him #1 because he took out Freeza.

In Vegeta's case here, it can still be falling back on the same thing as before during his inner monologue during the battle with Buu, that because Goku was the one that defeated Buu, there's no doubt that he's the best fighter. Not necessarily the strongest, but simply the best. In addition, later on, during that same episode, Vegeta makes the comment about surpassing Goku and everyone else so that he would become the strongest, which wouldn't make sense if Goku being #1 was an indicator of him being the strongest. If Goku were indeed the strongest, then he'd only need to pass him up to become the new strongest. However, given that he states that there are others as well would readily mean that Goku wasn't the strongest.

Goku never did actually say Gohan/Gotenks can beat Pure boo, only that they come and aid them in the fight.

No, that's not what he said in the original dialogue. In the original, he indicates that they would be the ones fighting, and doesn't bring up anything suggesting that they'd be helping him and Vegeta fight.

Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”

Nothing about them helping Goku fight or anything like that. Besides, Goku was at the point where he couldn't even hold a charge as Ssj3, so he wouldn't be able to fight in any real capacity anyway, so he'd clearly be the one helping them if he was going to fight alongside them, not the other way around.

- Vegito was a SSJ when he defused into Base Vegeta and Base Goku, which means they are 50 times stronger than they were.

Not a very good explanation, given that Vegeta was also in his base form when fusing with Goku.

[Truhan]

- Vegito was a SSJ when he defused into Base Vegeta and Base Goku, which means they are 50 times stronger than they were.

Not a very good explanation, given that Vegeta was also in his base form when fusing with Goku.

You didn't get it. Goku didn't fuse with Vegeta, both as SSJ, because they would remain like that as Vegito. However, SSJ Vegito defused straight into Base Goku and Base Vegeta, which means that both are now 50 times stronger than they were.

Goku PL * Vegeta PL = Vegito PL
SSJ Vegito PL = 50 * Goku PL (SSJ) * 50 * Vegeta PL (SSJ)

However:

50 * Goku (Base) and 50 * Vegeta PL (Base) comes from them defusing straight from SSJ Vegito.

[Captain Space]

I have a totally made up explanation:
- Old Kaioshin told Goku that he should fuse with the earrings at base, and only then transform into SSJ.
- Vegito was a SSJ when he defused into Base Vegeta and Base Goku, which means they are 50 times stronger than they were.

End of story xD

Problem with this explanation is that the line where Goku says he's still weaker than Super Buu is after they defuse.

[h0kuten]

Has this been discussed?
Because this completely clears it up for me. Goku is stronger than Gohan and has been since the defeat of Kid Buu. Roshi also points out the enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku not Gohan. I rewatched the Beers/Vegeta fight and Vegeta was blocking and dodging attacks too. Beers' finger flick against SS3 Goku created craters on the ground on a hyper dense planet. There's really no reason to assume Gohan was tanking more powerful hits.

The #1 can be taken multiple ways though. For example, when Goku was actually fighting Pure Buu and Vegeta was having his inner monologue about motives for fighting, he referred to Goku as being #1 there as well, but he proclaimed Goku as being #1 there not because Goku was the strongest, but because he was the best fighter, and the motives he had for combat.

In addition, given that Goku didn't beat Buu with his own strength at all (he used the Genki Dama to actually defeat him), then it'd make no sense for Vegeta's statement to be in reference to Goku's actual strength. It'd be like, if in the Freeza Saga, Kuririn took out Freeza with a ki-enzan, and then Vegeta started calling him #1 because he took out Freeza.

In Vegeta's case here, it can still be falling back on the same thing as before during his inner monologue during the battle with Buu, that because Goku was the one that defeated Buu, there's no doubt that he's the best fighter. Not necessarily the strongest, but simply the best. In addition, later on, during that same episode, Vegeta makes the comment about surpassing Goku and everyone else so that he would become the strongest, which wouldn't make sense if Goku being #1 was an indicator of him being the strongest. If Goku were indeed the strongest, then he'd only need to pass him up to become the new strongest. However, given that he states that there are others as well would readily mean that Goku wasn't the strongest.

Goku never did actually say Gohan/Gotenks can beat Pure boo, only that they come and aid them in the fight.

No, that's not what he said in the original dialogue. In the original, he indicates that they would be the ones fighting, and doesn't bring up anything suggesting that they'd be helping him and Vegeta fight.

Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”

Nothing about them helping Goku fight or anything like that. Besides, Goku was at the point where he couldn't even hold a charge as Ssj3, so he wouldn't be able to fight in any real capacity anyway, so he'd clearly be the one helping them if he was going to fight alongside them, not the other way around.

- Vegito was a SSJ when he defused into Base Vegeta and Base Goku, which means they are 50 times stronger than they were.

Not a very good explanation, given that Vegeta was also in his base form when fusing with Goku.

#1 fighter can only be interpreted one way because it's not contradicted. The secondary statement has also been covered by me. Vegeta makes a clear distinction between Earth and the UNIVERSE.

[Truhan]

Problem with this explanation is that the line where Goku says he's still weaker than Super Buu is after they defuse.

Which doesn't contradict the fact that they are still at base or SSJ ^_^ It was a joke, either way, because if Goku is 50 times stronger, than his SSJ would be 2.500 times stronger than his Base state before Vegito, which not even SSJ3 would touch.