"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Again: "Blasting News" is not an accurate source. Toriyama said nothing about of 17 and 18 than just they are capable of getting stronger if they train, mostly because they're human based. He said nothing similar to Freeza being a mutant with untapped power who never trained for the androids.

I don't know what Blasting News is, but he's referring to this.

Yes, I knew about this producer interview, but Toriyama saying 'x' character has a great potential it could mean a lot of things, it's a vague statement. He didn't said 17 was a prodigy or anything like Freeza.

#17 was stronger than Freeza when he was reborn as an Android, so it actually is all perfectly logical.

[TheMathemagician]

Yep

Episode 88 is going to cause chaos in this fanbase no matter what as it has both Piccolo and Gohan in it.

I'm sure no one cares or will be glad to see me go, but I'm dipping out before that. I probably won't be back until the actual tournament starts or when the manga drops. I can't take it anymore. I want to know what happens but I think a lot of us should just take a break and cool are heads. It's something a lot of us love but man is it causing strife everywhere.

I may not necessarily agree with that you have to say at times, but I find your opinion very much valued here. But if you feel you must, hopefully circumstances are different upon your return.

[Lapislettuce]

Again Toriyama stated that 17 has a huge potencial ! you don't know his characters better than his ! i don't get why you're still insisting on the fact that Frieza was so special when he was already waaaaay weaker than 17 and 18 at one point and Toriyama is acknowledging 17's powers why still complaining ? just why there so many bs that happened in the past that people ignored because they were happy about it.

Again: "Blasting News" is not an accurate source. Toriyama said nothing about of 17 and 18 than just they are capable of getting stronger if they train, mostly because they're human based. He said nothing similar to Freeza being a mutant with untapped power who never trained for the androids.

I don't know what Blasting News is, but he's referring to this.

Thank you man ! some people love to whine for the purpouse of whining without even knowing their facts.

[kinisking]

Again: "Blasting News" is not an accurate source. Toriyama said nothing about of 17 and 18 than just they are capable of getting stronger if they train, mostly because they're human based. He said nothing similar to Freeza being a mutant with untapped power who never trained for the androids.

I don't know what Blasting News is, but he's referring to this.

Yes, I knew about this producer interview, but Toriyama saying 'x' character has a great potential it could mean a lot of things, it's a vague statement. He didn't said 17 was a prodigy or anything like Freeza.

Dude, by itself it might be vague but if you put together what you know from the episode and what you know from that the answer is obvious. The interview isn't vague either , they're talking about strength and then talk about potential. 17 is more talented than Goku at gaining strength. From the perspective of Goku, his gains in 13 or so years might be bullshit. But, the dude is just more talented. I mean Gokus gains in comparison to other races is absolute bullshit too.

[namekiansaiyan]

I don't know what Blasting News is, but he's referring to this.

Yes, I knew about this producer interview, but Toriyama saying 'x' character has a great potential it could mean a lot of things, it's a vague statement. He didn't said 17 was a prodigy or anything like Freeza.

Dude, by itself it might be vague but if you put together what you know from the episode and what you know from that the answer is obvious. The interview isn't vague either , they're talking about strength and then talk about potential. 17 is more talented than Goku at gaining strength. From the perspective of Goku, his gains in 13 or so years might be bullshit. But, the dude is just more talented. I mean Gokus gains in comparison to other races is absolute bullshit too.

Talent does not equal who has the most potential for most power.

You can't compare 17 to Goku.

[kinisking]

Yes, I knew about this producer interview, but Toriyama saying 'x' character has a great potential it could mean a lot of things, it's a vague statement. He didn't said 17 was a prodigy or anything like Freeza.

Dude, by itself it might be vague but if you put together what you know from the episode and what you know from that the answer is obvious. The interview isn't vague either , they're talking about strength and then talk about potential. 17 is more talented than Goku at gaining strength. From the perspective of Goku, his gains in 13 or so years might be bullshit. But, the dude is just more talented. I mean Gokus gains in comparison to other races is absolute bullshit too.

Talent does not equal who has the most potential for most power.

You can't compare 17 to Goku.

I don't know man, it seems like you want me to word it in a way that doesn't hurt your feelings about Piccolo. I worded it correctly. I even said more talented in gaining strength specifically.

[namekiansaiyan]

Dude, by itself it might be vague but if you put together what you know from the episode and what you know from that the answer is obvious. The interview isn't vague either , they're talking about strength and then talk about potential. 17 is more talented than Goku at gaining strength. From the perspective of Goku, his gains in 13 or so years might be bullshit. But, the dude is just more talented. I mean Gokus gains in comparison to other races is absolute bullshit too.

Talent does not equal who has the most potential for most power.

You can't compare 17 to Goku.

I don't know man, it seems like you want me to word it in a way that doesn't hurt your feelings about Piccolo. I worded it correctly. I even said more talented in gaining strength specifically.

What has this got to do with Piccolo. Everyone here says that all I talk about is him but about 80% of the time it is people mentioning Piccolo in a reply to me instead. When my username appears on this website it does not mean Piccolo will be discussed.

The second time you mentioned talent was said in a way that he is more talented overall.

[FortuneSSJ]

1) Goten and Trunks might be protecting the island. It explains why they're on the manga poster with 17.

2) 17 says power isn't all it takes to protect the island. It kind of ties in with the tournament. I thought that was neat.

When Goku recommended them, I scratched my head. They are strong but they lack maturity for the job.
Trust for example, that last Minotaurus of his species to Goten and Trunks and be confident that nothing bad can happen is just beyond optimism.

If anything Bulma should be there to keep them in check. Both of them alone is just asking for problems to happen.

[pacz360]

Alright people let's be real here 17 getting this strong especially when you try to apply z logic is stupid but guess what it ain't following that it follows it's own logic.
In super Frieza went from untrained ssj to blue tier in four months
Trunks accomplished this in two days
17 who had ten years worth of training plus limitless stamina makes it much easier for him to reach god tier levels of power.
Comparing it to z it won't be consistent but in super it practically is.

[kinisking]

Talent does not equal who has the most potential for most power.

You can't compare 17 to Goku.

I don't know man, it seems like you want me to word it in a way that doesn't hurt your feelings about Piccolo. I worded it correctly. I even said more talented in gaining strength specifically.

What has this got to do with Piccolo. Everyone here says that all I talk about is him but about 80% of the time it is people mentioning Piccolo in a reply to me instead. When my username appears on this website it does not mean Piccolo will be discussed.

The second time you mentioned talent was said in a way that he is more talented overall.

So you're saying the fact that you felt a need to make a distinction between talent for power and talent overall has nothing to do with Piccolo's lack of talent in the former (at least in comparison to Goku and 17)? Sorry, hard to believe.

Well context clues, I specifically mentioned power two sentences back. The whole thing was about gaining power too. It's obvious what I was talking about.

[Noah]

#17 was stronger than Freeza when he was reborn as an Android, so it actually is all perfectly logical.

Again: Different beings with different biologies, also it never was stated that Artificial Humans were prodigies with untapped power, so yeah, not really a good argument. 17 is stronger now because the plot needs him to be there's no connection with Freeza.

Dude, by itself it might be vague but if you put together what you know from the episode and what you know from that the answer is obvious. The interview isn't vague either , they're talking about strength and then talk about potential. 17 is more talented than Goku at gaining strength. From the perspective of Goku, his gains in 13 or so years might be bullshit. But, the dude is just more talented. I mean Gokus gains in comparison to other races is absolute bullshit too.

Still doesn't change the fact that is bad writing, I'm not denying what the producer interview means, my critic is to the overall plot of this series:

Training for years in DBZ never made characters leap in power as drastically as it can in Super UNLESS some new form of training was introduced (i.e. King Kai's methods, gravity chambers, the RoSAT, etc.). 7 years after the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta JUST managed to become as strong as SSJ2 Kid Gohan! If you told me Android 17 had been training with Whis or got some new cybernetic upgrades, it'd seem more plausible, but this is just lazy.

Basically, Android 17 being stronger than a SSJB isn't what's irritating. It's the laziness behind the writing that is. They just state things like "he's way stronger now!" But that's all we ever get.

And:

Fans are really satisfied that 17 was able to overcome SSJ2, SSJ3 and likely SSJG/SSJB by just training the old fashioned way in the woods? Not only is this an insult to Goku's strength and hard work, but to all the shit that happened in the Buu saga. He's basically surpassed all the fighters in the Buu Saga in a single episode. It's fucking bonkers.

Those people got a reason to be not be satisfied with all this stuff, is not that hard to understand.

[kinisking]

One is mad that he surpassed the fighters in a single episode, which is untrue. Just because his training was off screen doesn't mean it isn't acceptable. Even I ignored that, I still don't see the problem with him surpassing the boo saga fighters. He's had more time to train than the others. People seem to be mad that his gains are higher than the others. Did anyone complain when Goku as a kid was stronger than the massive majority of people on Earth ? Wasn't he insulting their hard work ?

The other dude is comparing apples to oranges. He's comparing human and Saiyan growth to Android growth. We know saiyans evolve faster than humans, so I don't see the problem with androids evolving faster than saiyans. Not everyone needs or should need transformations to become stronger.

[Simere]

It's never the same thing when the protagonist's efforts are cheapened.

[kinisking]

It's never the same thing when the protagonist's efforts are cheapened.

Well, they should accept and admit that they're biased before they act like it's a flaw in the writing.

[SaiyanGod117]

It's never the same thing when the protagonist's efforts are cheapened.

Well, they should accept and admit that they're biased before they act like it's a flaw in the writing.

It is a flaw in the writing.

[Simere]

It's never the same thing when the protagonist's efforts are cheapened.

Well, they should accept and admit that they're biased before they act like it's a flaw in the writing.

It is a flaw in the writing.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. It's not something that should generally be done... unless the point of the story is to cheapen what the protagonist did.

[perucho1990]

What has this got to do with Piccolo. Everyone here says that all I talk about is him but about 80% of the time it is people mentioning Piccolo in a reply to me instead. When my username appears on this website it does not mean Piccolo will be discussed.

The second time you mentioned talent was said in a way that he is more talented overall.

I believe it has to do with how people see you are too bias toward Piccolo, feels like if Piccolo was in 17s place you will be the first one to defend him, and in the past iirc you were saying that Gohan didnt deserve to get a powerup/being relevant again.

And now both Gohan and Piccolo will get powerups, just wait 1 more week for their episode. Maybe we could get development in Piccolo wanting to be useful again, I remember when he said "curse our powerlessness" in the Cell Saga.

[TheMikado]

One is mad that he surpassed the fighters in a single episode, which is untrue. Just because his training was off screen doesn't mean it isn't acceptable. Even I ignored that, I still don't see the problem with him surpassing the boo saga fighters. He's had more time to train than the others. People seem to be mad that his gains are higher than the others. Did anyone complain when Goku as a kid was stronger than the massive majority of people on Earth ? Wasn't he insulting their hard work ?

The other dude is comparing apples to oranges. He's comparing human and Saiyan growth to Android growth. We know saiyans evolve faster than humans, so I don't see the problem with androids evolving faster than saiyans. Not everyone needs or should need transformations to become stronger.

I think people are comparing android to android. 18 doesn't seem to have gained any strength at all but I'm fairly certain we've seen her spar and train with Krillin several times which should be more effective forms of training than some remote island but that seems to happen a lot in DB. Anyway it's weird to see 17 get huge gains while not surviving or contributing at all through any of the previous arcs while 18 had the motivation, the resources, the sparring partner in her husband, access to the RoSAT the gravity chamber, lived in roshis house, seen a bunch of enemies the gang faced but doesn't seem to have grown at all. Yet we have 17 oblivious to everything figting off power 5 poachers for years and he's got the motivation and drive to do intense training and some super potential that must be unique to him.

This isn't really an android question because 18 has gotten nothing so far it is a why is 17 so special question? And the answer is the producer likes him, wants to sell toys and that's why he's now powered up and relevant.

[kinisking]

One is mad that he surpassed the fighters in a single episode, which is untrue. Just because his training was off screen doesn't mean it isn't acceptable. Even I ignored that, I still don't see the problem with him surpassing the boo saga fighters. He's had more time to train than the others. People seem to be mad that his gains are higher than the others. Did anyone complain when Goku as a kid was stronger than the massive majority of people on Earth ? Wasn't he insulting their hard work ?

The other dude is comparing apples to oranges. He's comparing human and Saiyan growth to Android growth. We know saiyans evolve faster than humans, so I don't see the problem with androids evolving faster than saiyans. Not everyone needs or should need transformations to become stronger.

I think people are comparing android to android. 18 doesn't seem to have gained any strength at all but I'm fairly certain we've seen her spar and train with Krillin several times which should be more effective forms of training than some remote island but that seems to happen a lot in DB. Anyway it's weird to see 17 get huge gains while not surviving or contributing at all through any of the previous arcs while 18 had the motivation, the resources, the sparring partner in her husband, access to the RoSAT the gravity chamber, lived in roshis house, seen a bunch of enemies the gang faced but doesn't seem to have grown at all. Yet we have 17 oblivious to everything figting off power 5 poachers for years and he's got the motivation and drive to do intense training and some super potential that must be unique to him.

This isn't really an android question because 18 has gotten nothing so far it is a why is 17 so special question? And the answer is the producer likes him, wants to sell toys and that's why he's now powered up and relevant.

Firstly, 18 was made weaker than 17 on purpose because of how rebellious he was. Also, I don't think 18 ever trained consistently. She might have sparred with Krillin every now and then but I don't think she ever committed herself fully. Even Krillin stopped training. Also, 17 is much more prideful in his strength than 18. 18 also has the misfortune of bring a wife in DB.

Any time super does anything, people are going to mention the toys huh ? I don't see why that matters.

[TheMikado]

One is mad that he surpassed the fighters in a single episode, which is untrue. Just because his training was off screen doesn't mean it isn't acceptable. Even I ignored that, I still don't see the problem with him surpassing the boo saga fighters. He's had more time to train than the others. People seem to be mad that his gains are higher than the others. Did anyone complain when Goku as a kid was stronger than the massive majority of people on Earth ? Wasn't he insulting their hard work ?

The other dude is comparing apples to oranges. He's comparing human and Saiyan growth to Android growth. We know saiyans evolve faster than humans, so I don't see the problem with androids evolving faster than saiyans. Not everyone needs or should need transformations to become stronger.

I think people are comparing android to android. 18 doesn't seem to have gained any strength at all but I'm fairly certain we've seen her spar and train with Krillin several times which should be more effective forms of training than some remote island but that seems to happen a lot in DB. Anyway it's weird to see 17 get huge gains while not surviving or contributing at all through any of the previous arcs while 18 had the motivation, the resources, the sparring partner in her husband, access to the RoSAT the gravity chamber, lived in roshis house, seen a bunch of enemies the gang faced but doesn't seem to have grown at all. Yet we have 17 oblivious to everything figting off power 5 poachers for years and he's got the motivation and drive to do intense training and some super potential that must be unique to him.

This isn't really an android question because 18 has gotten nothing so far it is a why is 17 so special question? And the answer is the producer likes him, wants to sell toys and that's why he's now powered up and relevant.

Firstly, 18 was made weaker than 17 on purpose because of how rebellious he was. Also, I don't think 18 ever trained consistently. She might have sparred with Krillin every now and then but I don't think she ever committed herself fully. Even Krillin stopped training. Also, 17 is much more prideful in his strength than 18. 18 also has the misfortune of bring a wife in DB.

Any time super does anything, people are going to mention the toys huh ? I don't see why that matters.

I don't mention the toys often but the producer is a big fan of 17. My point is they don't say why 17 is so special especially compared to 18. Yes we are aware he has a higher power level but no where in universe does it ever state higher starting power level = higher quickly achieving potential. This is a brand new thing that the fan base pieced together after RoF. Anyway my point has been the same, we need to seperate the head canon from the facts. We don't know if it's because he's an android, or because he has a higher starting power level, or really what the specific reason is for why he can power up like that, nor do we really know specifically how he did it.

The fact is it's getting tiresome that when someone says, hey that didn't make sense. You get 6 or 7 different head canons coming out explanation what the "facts" are. Sure we can piece together any number of reasons or s combination there of. That doesn't excuse the fact that we aren't actually told why or how he got that strong.

So people care about the journey and some people only care about the destination. I'm a journey kind of person, so I feel very shortchanged by not knowing his story on how or why he is the way he is today. By contrast I loved the manga show Trunks/Dabura and made me appreciate his struggle much much more. The journey is important to some of us, why would you want to take that away from us?