The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[shonenhikada]

can anyone provide solid proof roshi got stronger between 21st-22nd, which is quite odd since this flow of pattern does not occur for the rest of the series.

[Piccolo Daimao]

can anyone provide solid proof roshi got stronger between 21st-22nd, which is quite odd since this flow of pattern does not occur for the rest of the series.

It's as clear as day. He went from about as strong as 21st TB Gokuu, to almost as strong as 22nd TB Tenshinhan, who was about as strong as 22nd TB Gokuu, who was much stronger than 21st TB Gokuu. It's not odd; he just got back in shape because he didn't want to risk losing to his pupils again.

[shonenhikada]

can anyone provide solid proof roshi got stronger between 21st-22nd, which is quite odd since this flow of pattern does not occur for the rest of the series.

It's as clear as day. He went from about as strong as 21st TB Gokuu, to almost as strong as 22nd TB Tenshinhan, who was about as strong as 22nd TB Gokuu, who was much stronger than 21st TB Gokuu. It's not odd; he just got back in shape because he didn't want to risk losing to his pupils again.

Just did a little reading up on some of these chapter statement

chapter 131 is taking place in Goku's fight with tien so that statement context is in regards to goku not Mr. Roshi against tien.

Chapter: 131, P11.1
Chaozu: “This is the first time I’ve seen Ten-san fighting all-out…I want to see how the match will end too…”

Most likely from this panel on top right
http://108.60.201.122/46%2F131_46_%2F111112.jpg
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-131/


Its no indicator Tien went all out against Roshi or their even on the same level.

Also

Chapter: 115, P14.2-3
Kuririn: “You were watching?!”
Kame-sennin: “Yup! All three of you displayed your progress magnificently! Any one of you may win the top prize this time!”

Chapter: 117, P7.3-5, 8.1
Context: The first round of the 22nd tournament began with a ferocious exchange of blows!
Kuririn: “Wh-whoa…!”
Goku: “They’re both amazing--!”
Announcer: “Wh-wh-what happened?!! All that action…and so fast…!!!”
Yamcha (thinking): “I…I never imagined he’d be so good…”
Tenshinhan (thinking): “Interesting… Evidently he wasn’t just full of hot air after all… It’s been some time since I encountered such formidable resistance…”

Chapter: 118, P14.1
Context: Tenshinhan won the match with Yamcha.
Chaozu: “You won!”
Tenshinhan: “Of course. But you know, these Turtle School fellows are much better than I expected. Don’t be complacent. Of course, this Yamcha was probably the best Kame-sen’nin has to offer…so it’s already plain that I’ll be the champion…and you’ll be runner up!”

Despite Yamcha, krillin starting out late Roshi states they have just as much a chance as goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

How does that prove that Muten Roushi didn't improve between the 21st and 22nd TBs? Seriously, this shouldn't even be a debate. Roushi was even with Gokuu back at the 21st TB, barely winning due to his longer legs. Then Gokuu trains under Karin, powers up, and gets even stronger by the 22nd TB. Tenshinhan at the 22nd TB's about as strong as Gokuu at the 22nd TB, and Roushi put up a good fight against him, so no matter how much Ten was holding back, that still shows how much Roushi gained in those three years.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What Daimao said is enough to prove Roshi gained more power in-between the Budokai's, but if you don't want to believe it, we can just go with this:

Chapter: 113, P14.1-2
Goku: “I hope I beat you this time--!”
Jackie Chun: “Ho ho ho! It seems you’ve trained even more, eh? This will be fun.”
Jackie Chun (thinking): “You’ve got to be kidding. I’m Muten Roshi; I can’t lose no matter what. I’ve been training in secret myself!”

There. He actually tells us he was training.

[Kaboom]

If the argument's about whether or not Muten Roshi actually got any stronger... yeah, that should finish it. Even if not, can we get off this particular tangent, please?

[dbgtFO]

Just did a little reading up on some of these chapter statement

chapter 131 is taking place in Goku's fight with Tenshinhan so that statement context is in regards to goku not Mr. Roshi against Tenshinhan.

Chapter: 131, P11.1
Chaozu: “This is the first time I’ve seen Ten-san fighting all-out…I want to see how the match will end too…”

Yes I know that, it's not like I said the comment was said during Ten's fight with Roshi or anything. The point about bringing up that statement was to show, that Tenshinhan didn't give it his all against Yamcha, which I was talking about in that post.

Its no indicator Tenshinhan went all out against Roshi or their even on the same level.

No that statement obviously isn't, but refer back to my post and check out the second quote I brought up you should understand that Tenshinhan was giving it more against Roshi, than he was against Yamcha.

Despite Yamcha, krillin starting out late Roshi states they have just as much a chance as goku.

...Until they find out how strong Goku had gotten.

@Kaboom

Gladly, I just wanted to address shonenhikada's misconceptions about my points first to get this discussion wrapped up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Future Cell Vs Present #17 and #18

This is the Cell Trunks fought in his timeline. Based on what he says to Trunks, he's on a level beyond the Androids of that time. Since I'm not sure how strong this Cell is, I'm wondering how he compares to the more powerful Androids from the present. Strong enough to take them both? Or would they be too much for him to handle?

[dbgtFO]

My take on it is that Future Cell is decently ahead of the future androids, but is inferior to the stronger present pair, so #18 should be enough to defeat him single-handedly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Muten Roshi said it himself that he got stronger in the manga?

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, Turlast already posted the quote, but a manga page is also good, but maybe you should have put a black bar on the name of that website..

[DBZGTKOSDH]

maybe you should have put a black bar on the name of that website..

What are you talking about?

[shonenhikada]

Just did a little reading up on some of these chapter statement

chapter 131 is taking place in Goku's fight with Tenshinhan so that statement context is in regards to goku not Mr. Roshi against Tenshinhan.

Chapter: 131, P11.1
Chaozu: “This is the first time I’ve seen Ten-san fighting all-out…I want to see how the match will end too…”

Yes I know that, it's not like I said the comment was said during Ten's fight with Roshi or anything. The point about bringing up that statement was to show, that Tenshinhan didn't give it his all against Yamcha, which I was talking about in that post.

Its no indicator Tenshinhan went all out against Roshi or their even on the same level.

No that statement obviously isn't, but refer back to my post and check out the second quote I brought up you should understand that Tenshinhan was giving it more against Roshi, than he was against Yamcha.

Despite Yamcha, krillin starting out late Roshi states they have just as much a chance as goku.

...Until they find out how strong Goku had gotten.

@Kaboom

Gladly, I just wanted to address shonenhikada's misconceptions about my points first to get this discussion wrapped up.

Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer [Kame-sennin] is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

He doesn't indicate he fought harded against yamcha he merely stating that roshi is stronger than his master.

Chapter: 118, P14.1
Context: Tenshinhan won the match with Yamcha.
Chaozu: “You won!”
Tenshinhan: “Of course. But you know, these Turtle School fellows are much better than I expected. Don’t be complacent. Of course, this Yamcha was probably the best Kame-sen’nin has to offer…so it’s already plain that I’ll be the champion…and you’ll be runner up!

All these are compliments nothing else on the people he beat. lol.

[dbgtFO]

Tenshinhan's comment on Yamcha before having witnessed Goku's power is proof of Yamcha's superiority?

As for the Roshi thing, I said the 2nd quote in that post on the previous page, the one where Roshi says Tenshinhan is far greater than he imagined. Since Roshi had already witnessed the power, that was used to defeat Yamcha and he was amazed by how much Tenshinhan exceeded his expectations, Tenshinhan was using more of his power against Roshi, than he was against Yamcha.

Is that what you are still disputing?

Because I'm having trouble understanding, what you mean...

[shonenhikada]

Tenshinhan's comment on Yamcha before having witnessed Goku's power is proof of Yamcha's superiority?

As for the Roshi thing, I said the 2nd quote in that post on the previous page, the one where Roshi says Tenshinhan is far greater than he imagined. Since Roshi had already witnessed the power, that was used to defeat Yamcha and he was amazed by how much Tenshinhan exceeded his expectations, Tenshinhan was using more of his power against Roshi, than he was against Yamcha.

Is that what you are still disputing?

Because I'm having trouble understanding, what you mean...

No that quote was merely showing that Tien tends to compliment people he beat, but does not directly show that said person is more powerful than the other as evident that goku is clearly more powerful than yamcha but tien states he's probably the best which was proven false character statement.

"As for the 22nd Budokai, that's just plain wrong. Roshi did better than Yamcha against Tenshinhan, Tenshinhan schooled Yamcha and broke his leg where he wasn't sure if he could defeat Roshi"

Your second quote merely has this statement in quotation above, which is opinionated. If you can find me tenshihan saying he's unsure he could defeat roshi i will accept that, and continue our discussion from there.

[dbgtFO]

So what are you debating now? Because it sounds like you are agreeing with Saiga about Yamcha compared to Roshi now, which was what I was strengthening.

Ah now I see...

When I mention the second quote I'm not talking about the forum goers, I was talking about quotes from the manga. In that post on the previous page I had some quotes from the manga, which is what I was referring to.

[shonenhikada]

So what are you debating now? Because it sounds like you are agreeing with Saiga about Yamcha compared to Roshi now, which was what I was strengthening.

I'm stating there is nothing suggesting Roshi>Yamcha as evident that Tien was holding back for both of them. This is what I'm debating. I'm asking if you can kindly find me the quote of Tien saying he is unsure he can beat Roshi as evidence so we can continue our debate from there.

I'm confuse which quote your referring to as nothing i've seen Roshi>Yamcha at this time.

[dbgtFO]

Right.
As I mentioned on the previous page, this quote implies Yamcha </= Tsuru-sennin < Kame-sennin.

Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer [Kame-sennin] is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

This quote tells us Tenshinhan was using way more of his power against Kame-sennin, than he was against Yamcha.

Chapter: 123, P13.5
Kame-sennin: “What a guy…He took my technique head-on…He’s got power far greater than I imagined…Like I thought, a new generation of young people is on its way…”

As the chapter title says Roshi matches this power.

[shonenhikada]

Right.
As I mentioned on the previous page, this quote implies Yamcha </= Tsuru-sennin < Kame-sennin.

Chapter: 123, P13.4
Tenshinhan: “This geezer [Kame-sennin] is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”

This quote tells us Tenshinhan was using way more of his power against Kame-sennin, than he was against Yamcha.

Chapter: 123, P13.5
Kame-sennin: “What a guy…He took my technique head-on…He’s got power far greater than I imagined…Like I thought, a new generation of young people is on its way…”

As the chapter title says Roshi matches this power.

Sorry but I'm not seeing how this proves he use more of his power just that roshi is impressive with the level of the new generation. Also using chapter title doesn't prove anything as they weren't clearly evenly match since roshi lost and even forfeited because he knew he couldn't win.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

"He's got power far greater than I imagined"=Tien's displaying more power than he did against Yamcha

Tien was very impressed with Roshi, while he treated Yamcha like a joke. If they were about the same, Tien would have no reason to make a big deal out of Roshi surpassing his master. Roshi's stronger.