Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Draconic]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

The reason is we now know they can turn the God Ki on and off like a light switch due to SSB Vegeta vs Cabba.
This combined with the only way all the different power levels and scenarios make sense is that Goku and Vegeta now have the ability to increase any form they are using by x400-500 at will.. Just as long as they stay well below Beerus power as according to Toriyamas comments.

He is multiplying the God ki already inside him like everyother transformation.

[TheMikado]

Did Goku turn part of his ki off in the past when he was using SSJ/SSJ2 instead of SSJ3? No. There is no reason to assume he does now. The "turning God ki on and off" theory has no evidence to back it up.

The reason is we now know they can turn the God Ki on and off like a light switch due to SSB Vegeta vs Cabba.
This combined with the only way all the different power levels and scenarios make sense is that Goku and Vegeta now have the ability to increase any form they are using by x400-500 at will.. Just as long as they stay well below Beerus power as according to Toriyamas comments.

He is multiplying the God ki already inside him like everyother transformation.

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

[Draconic]

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

He has no Base and "Base God". His base has God ki. His SSJ form multiplies his normal ki, while SSGSS multiplies the God ki. It follows the same logic Dragon Ball always did. No one should make up new theories when the old explanation still applies. There is no argument when one side doesn't have... well... arguments.

[Chiki]

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

He has no Base and "Base God". His base has God ki. His SSJ form multiplies his normal ki, while SSGSS multiplies the God ki. It follows the same logic Dragon Ball always did. No one should make up new theories when the old explanation still applies. There is no argument when one side doesn't have... well... arguments.

Lol, sorry, but if you think there's no arguments for our side then you have no idea what you're talking about.

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.
2. Piccolo's ridiculous power boost. He went from Cell Junior level in RoF to OHKOing Super Vegito! Wtf.
3. Goku's comment to Frost in the manga that he can become stronger by training. If Frost is RoF Frieza level, it means he trains. And you don't tell someone who trains to train, it just makes no logical sense.
4. It cheapens the idea of godly ki if there are too many people with it running around. Beerus, Whis, Hit, Goku and Vegeta and maybe Monaka are enough. We don't need Piccolo having godly ki out of nowhere, Cabba, Magetta, Frost etc. as well. It, again, cheapens the idea of Buu being the greatest threat to the universe.
5. Goku really wanted Buu to fight in the tournament, meaning he would have done well against U6, even though he doesn't train at all and eats and sleeps all day. How would a guy who doesn't train get a ridiculous power boost that would allow him to gain godly ki? I don't think so.
6. Frieza is a bigger prodigy than Goku and he never trained in his life, so he got more out of training than Goku did with Whis. How was it that Base Goku surpassed Final Form Frieza when Final Form Frieza was stronger than Base Goku as Beerus pointed out in BoG?

[TheMikado]

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

He has no Base and "Base God". His base has God ki. His SSJ form multiplies his normal ki, while SSGSS multiplies the God ki. It follows the same logic Dragon Ball always did. No one should make up new theories when the old explanation still applies. There is no argument when one side doesn't have... well... arguments.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, your Logic makes even less sense.

Final Form Frieza RoF ~ Base Goku ~< Buu ~=SSJ3

Meaning base Goku would have had to have his power increase x400-x500 times or 50,000% base just to get to that level.
This is based on the "canonical" multiplier numbers.

So in the scenario above Goku at a power lever of:
1 Pre-BoG base
500 Post Base 1 Normal Ki/499 God Ki?

If the SSJ multiplier only applies on the 1 Normal ki Goku's total power level would be X550 his original pre-BoG base.
This only yields a 9% increase in total power from his base.

The problem with this is SSJ3 was already X400 so in your scenario this would only increase Goku's power from SSJ by 27%.

This is a problem because SSJ3 used less than 10% of Beerus power and the SSJ form used 60%.
Mathematically you would have to resolve the 600% increase from SSJ3 to Vs Beerus SSJ
and the 27% mathematically increase we get from your methods.

To Further complicate this, if we take the same 500x base Goku and apply the multiplier to only his God Ki. (x499)
Goku should be x24,950 in SSB or over 60 times more powerful than a SSJ3.
Even if we assume Goku SSJ3 only was equivalent to 2% of Beerus total power, your method would mean Goku should be a 12 on the 6-10-15 scale and stronger than Beerus.

However we know ALL the above can't happen because Toriyama said that not only will then not surpass Beerus at this point but they wont even come close.

So if you want to disprove a theory, please make one which reconciles the above scenarios. I don't like the two base theory either at all but it is literally the only way to make anything make sense. We have to make up abilities that we aren't even sure exist.

[namekiansaiyan]

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

He has no Base and "Base God". His base has God ki. His SSJ form multiplies his normal ki, while SSGSS multiplies the God ki. It follows the same logic Dragon Ball always did. No one should make up new theories when the old explanation still applies. There is no argument when one side doesn't have... well... arguments.

Lol, sorry, but if you think there's no arguments for our side then you have no idea what you're talking about.

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.
2. Piccolo's ridiculous power boost. He went from Cell Junior level in RoF to OHKOing Super Vegito! Wtf.
3. Goku's comment to Frost in the manga that he can become stronger by training. If Frost is RoF Frieza level, it means he trains. And you don't tell someone who trains to train, it just makes no logical sense.
4. It cheapens the idea of godly ki if there are too many people with it running around. Beerus, Whis, Hit, Goku and Vegeta and maybe Monaka are enough. We don't need Piccolo having godly ki out of nowhere, Cabba, Magetta, Frost etc. as well. It, again, cheapens the idea of Buu being the greatest threat to the universe.
5. Goku really wanted Buu to fight in the tournament, meaning he would have done well against U6, even though he doesn't train at all and eats and sleeps all day. How would a guy who doesn't train get a ridiculous power boost that would allow him to gain godly ki? I don't think so.
6. Frieza is a bigger prodigy than Goku and he never trained in his life, so he got more out of training than Goku did with Whis. How was it that Base Goku surpassed Final Form Frieza when Final Form Frieza was stronger than Base Goku as Beerus pointed out in BoG?

Just because something is hard to believe, it does not mean it is not true and that you have to make things up so it is not true.
In dragonball power levels always increas from one arc to the next. There is no point characters commenting on other characters power unless it is really strong like Super Saiyan Blue.

[Doctor.]

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.

Freeza.

[Chiki]

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.

Freeza.

Yes, the only god tiers are Goku, Beerus, Whis, Vegeta, Freeza, Hit and probably Monaka. Adding a bunch of others like Cabba and Piccolo to that list would be lame.

Just because something is hard to believe, it does not mean it is not true and that you have to make things up so it is not true.
In dragonball power levels always increas from one arc to the next. There is no point characters commenting on other characters power unless it is really strong like Super Saiyan Blue.

Yep, it doesn't mean it is true, but that still gives me a much stronger reason to take my view seriously.

For example, I find it hard to believe that Piccolo's training after RoF put him above Base Goku w/ SSG power during Champa arc, when he was like Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level during RoF. I find it so hard to believe I think it's nonsense. That's why I take my view more seriously than the alternative view (Piccolo became a God after RoF, somehow, who knows how).

[Xeztin]

I believe Goku gained a 2nd Ki after absorbing the God Ki, and he has access to his normal or God ki upon his free will. He absorbed it in his fight against Beerus and was as strong as SSG in his normal SSJ form and later on he mastered the God Ki giving us SSJB (Stronger than SSG). I do believe that there is a "Base with God Ki" form as well meaning Goku or Vegeta can use the ki in any of their forms. The reason I say this is because Goku fought Freeza's mastered true form 100 percent power in his base when even Freeza himself asked Goku if he were going to going SSJ. He replied with " I think I'll stay like this". When Freeza went into his Gold form Goku's base was obviously overpowered and he jumped straight into SSJB. Goku strikes me as the guy that'd leave his trump card for last like he did in the Champa arc and like he showed off SSJ 1-3 to Beerus. So why didn't he go SSJ before SSJB? I Think it's because he knew he had no chance without God ki even against Freeza's true form so he turned his God Ki on in base saving SSJB for his trump card.
To me that implies that Base W/O God Ki< Normal SSJ < Base W/God Ki < SSJB (Super Saiyan W/God ki)

In the Champa arc, Goku or Vegeta could have blown away the tourney so far if they just used their God Ki, but they obviously wanted a challenge.

[Bullza]

What's wrong with Base Goku just simply having a portion of God power?

It'd explain why he's stronger than SSJ3 tier but not close to God tier.

It explains why he's stronger than Frieza. It explains why he ain't close to God tier. It explains why Botamo, Cabba, Frost and Piccolo aren't God tier. It explains Whis' comparison. It explains why they the others can sense him etc

[kinisking]

Can someone here give me hardcore evidence that base goku>ss3 boo arc? I was arguing to my brother about it and he would not give up. He kept saying there's a possibility that Freeza was only using less than 50% against base goku in the movie.

[Xeztin]

What's wrong with Base Goku just simply having a portion of God power?

It'd explain why he's stronger than SSJ3 tier but not close to God tier.

It explains why he's stronger than Frieza. It explains why he ain't close to God tier. It explains why Botamo, Cabba, Frost and Piccolo aren't God tier. It explains Whis' comparison. It explains why they the others can sense him etc

I don't think it's possible to have a portion of God ki. In my opinion you either have it or you don't. I do believe you can master the God Ki or train with it to get stronger just like mortal ki. Goku (imo) has access to both his normal "Mortal" ki plus the God Ki.
I believe that Base W/O God Ki < Normal SSJ (50x base) < Base W/God KI< SSJ (50x base W/God KI) and the God Ki turns SSJ's hair blue.

The God Ki would obviously make both his base and SSJ form far stronger because his base has God Ki turned on, and his SSJ form is multiplying that. So in a sense I would add that Base Goku with God Ki = The Red Super Saiyan God < Super Saiyan Blue (SSJ 50x base).
To me that would mean "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" because if his base is = to SSG than going Super Saiyan would mean "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan."

[dbgtFO]

Can someone here give me hardcore evidence that base goku>ss3 boo arc? I was arguing to my brother about it and he would not give up. He kept saying there's a possibility that Freeza was only using less than 50% against base goku in the movie.

Freeza is surprised Goku is so much stronger than Majin Buu and Goku doesn't disagree. That's about it.

[Hugo Boss]

Two questions: why godly ki doesn't change Base Goku's color as it changes Super Saiyan's? Wouldn't it be simpler to distinguish the forms?

Can someone here give me hardcore evidence that base goku>ss3 boo arc? I was arguing to my brother about it and he would not give up. He kept saying there's a possibility that Freeza was only using less than 50% against base goku in the movie.

Freeza is surprised Goku is so much stronger than Majin Buu and Goku doesn't disagree. That's about it.

Couldn't Freeza be factoring Goku still had Super Saiyan up his sleeve?

[Bullza]

I don't think it's possible to have a portion of God ki.

The way the series has played out sorta implies he does though.

Base Goku is much stronger after his fight with Beerus than he was before. However going by what Whis said he isn't worth dirt compared to Beerus. Yet he was fighting toe to toe with a serious Beerus in Base form in the movie so that doesn't make sense.

That pretty much tells us that

Base Goku during the Beerus fight > Base Goku ever since the Beerus fight > Base Goku before he became a SSJG

[Xeztin]

Two questions: why godly ki doesn't change Base Goku's color as it changes Super Saiyan's? Wouldn't it be simpler to distinguish the forms?

Can someone here give me hardcore evidence that base goku>ss3 boo arc? I was arguing to my brother about it and he would not give up. He kept saying there's a possibility that Freeza was only using less than 50% against base goku in the movie.

Freeza is surprised Goku is so much stronger than Majin Buu and Goku doesn't disagree. That's about it.

Couldn't Freeza be factoring Goku still had Super Saiyan up his sleeve?

The only thing I could say for this is that when he absorbed the God Ki, he was as strong as SSG but he just looked like plain old Gold haired SSJ. So if he reverted to Base and kept the God Ki on, why would it be any different? I think the result of SSJB having blue hair is just the form itself, multiplying the God Ki 50x and mixing the form's yellow hair with whatever color the God Ki's aura is. It would have made more sense if it were Super Saiyan White which is what Toriyama originally planned. I think you could put it in the same category as to why fusion's give those vests. It was stated that Goku lost the form but kept the power so that would explain his base looking normal with God Ki. After he trained with it, he became equal to SSG in his base, and went beyond that by multiplying it with Super Saiyan. I think you could also say that SSJB having Blue hair is just to separate it from normal SSJ. Also because Toriyama probably didn't think there would be a form beyond SSG or if he'd ever use the form again.

I don't think it's possible to have a portion of God ki.

The way the series has played out sorta implies he does though.

Base Goku is much stronger after his fight with Beerus than he was before. However going by what Whis said he isn't worth dirt compared to Beerus. Yet he was fighting toe to toe with a serious Beerus in Base form in the movie so that doesn't make sense.

That pretty much tells us that

Base Goku during the Beerus fight > Base Goku ever since the Beerus fight > Base Goku before he became a SSJG

In my opinion, I think that's just Goku getting stronger in his base just like every previous fight before this one. I don't think it's possible to have half normal Ki so I treat God Ki the same way. I don't treat God Ki as being special other than it just being a naturally stronger Ki. I believe that was just Goku fighting with Beerus, getting used to the Ki and getting stronger as he trained with it just like everyone did with normal ki. If we are to believe the Kai's have God Ki then they should be on par with Beerus but they are not, I think its because they didn't train with it like Goku did with his normal Ki and is now doing with his God Ki. I believe God Ki and normal Ki are the same thing, it's just one is more naturally stronger than the other even if you never train with it . For example, the Kai's are stronger than normal humans but they've never trained in their life. One born with God Ki is naturally stronger than one born with Normal Ki, but obviously if you train with normal ki long enough, you can surpass someone with God Ki like Freeza. Goku couldn't even do that though, so I believe it's a rare case and Freeza is just a genetic powerhouse mutant. I think when Goku absorbed the God Ki he was equal to SSG in his SSJ form, after training with it and getting stronger with the God Ki just like he did with the normal ki, he became equal to SSG in base and when he used SSJ to multiply that God Ki he became SSJB.

[Chiki]

What's wrong with Base Goku just simply having a portion of God power?

It'd explain why he's stronger than SSJ3 tier but not close to God tier.

It explains why he's stronger than Frieza. It explains why he ain't close to God tier. It explains why Botamo, Cabba, Frost and Piccolo aren't God tier. It explains Whis' comparison. It explains why they the others can sense him etc

Because of Piccolo's ridiculous power boost, Buu's ridiculous power boost without training at all (Goku wanted him in the tourney), Cabba and Magetta and Botamo and Piccolo being gods, etc. arguments I already brought up.

Can someone here give me hardcore evidence that base goku>ss3 boo arc? I was arguing to my brother about it and he would not give up. He kept saying there's a possibility that Freeza was only using less than 50% against base goku in the movie.

Beerus owned SSJ3 Goku in a couple hits. Base Goku did well against Beerus in the movie and maybe Super too, I forget.

Two questions: why godly ki doesn't change Base Goku's color as it changes Super Saiyan's? Wouldn't it be simpler to distinguish the forms?

I don't know why, it's because of Toriyama's design choices. Goku still kept godly ki after he lost SSG (evidenced by his ability to compete with 70% Beerus) but he lost his red hair at the same time.

Base Goku is much stronger after his fight with Beerus than he was before. However going by what Whis said he isn't worth dirt compared to Beerus. Yet he was fighting toe to toe with a serious Beerus in Base form in the movie so that doesn't make sense.

If Beerus is a 10 and Base Goku is a 4-5, then Beerus would still be able to own Goku, making the comparison valid but very exaggerated.

Base Goku during the Beerus fight > Base Goku ever since the Beerus fight > Base Goku before he became a SSJG

That makes no sense though.

[Bullza]

I think that's just Goku getting stronger in his base just like every previous fight before this one.

I'm talking about before he trained though. Vegeta needed to do 6 months of intense training with Whis to get back up to Goku's level. So that means that Base Goku was more powerful than he was before but he wasn't quite as strong as when he fought Beerus.

I see it as Goku having a small portion of the God power since the Beerus fight and when he withdraws all of that power and combines it with SSJ he becomes a SSJB.

[Bullza]

Because of Piccolo's ridiculous power boost, Buu's ridiculous power boost without training at all (Goku wanted him in the tourney), Cabba and Magetta and Botamo and Piccolo being gods, etc. arguments I already brought up.

What do you mean? I'm saying they aren't God level and that they didn't have such ridiculous power boosts. Piccolo would have still seen a big jump but he certainly wouldn't be God level. Buu didn't even take part so doesn't have to have any boost.

Beerus owned SSJ3 Goku in a couple hits. Base Goku did well against Beerus in the movie and maybe Super too, I forget.

Yeah so at that point Base Goku was God tier. But then later Whis said that Goku was practically nothing compared to Beerus so wasn't God tier.

If Beerus is a 10 and Base Goku is a 4-5, then Beerus would still be able to own Goku, making the comparison valid but very exaggerated.

True but after putting up a good fight against a pretty serious Beerus it doesn't make all that much sense to say he's like a couple meter tall staff compared to a several hundred meter tall tree.

That makes no sense though.

It can do. When Goku was fighting Beerus he was currently in the heat of Battle and the in the process of absorbing the power into his being. Beerus said that the God power was still running through him.

Then we have to assume that after that fight the vast majority of that God power went dormant. Through his training with Whis he then learned to bring out all that power on his own which was something that King Kai said when Goku became a SSJB.

[Chiki]

What do you mean? I'm saying they aren't God level and that they didn't have such ridiculous power boosts. Piccolo would have still seen a big jump but he certainly wouldn't be God level. Buu didn't even take part so doesn't have to have any boost.

Sorry, I forgot about the specifics of your view for a moment.

I agree that Goku has a portion of god power, but you think his power went down a lot more than I do. I don't see why Goku would become a lot weaker in base after training with Whis. That's just weird. Yes, you can claim he channels his god power mostly into SSB instead, but I see no reason why he can't also choose to do that in base.

In addition, the arguments that I gave you in accident earlier can still be used against you. It's true, Piccolo's jump isn't to god level anymore. But it still makes no sense: Piccolo was Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level back in RoF. How did he get such a big jump? By your reasoning, why didn't he just go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and take on Buu by himself back during the Buu Saga? He probably knew the limits of his power. There's just no way he could have had a big jump that put him well above SSJ3 Goku.

True but after putting up a good fight against a pretty serious Beerus it doesn't make all that much sense to say he's like a couple meter tall staff compared to a several hundred meter tall tree.

It's possible that he was including himself, Vados, and gods we haven't met yet. We know Beerus himself isn't that strong either.

Then we have to assume that after that fight the vast majority of that God power went dormant. Through his training with Whis he then learned to bring out all that power on his own which was something that King Kai said when Goku became a SSJB.

Why did it go dormant though? When Goku fought Frieza and first went SSJ, he learned how to draw out SSJ by himself with no loss in power. Why can't he draw out the vast majority of the god power according to you?