Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Draconic]

How are they multiplying the GodKi when Going from Base to Base SSG God Ki? The argument right now is that they can turn it off and on even in base I.e. Goku can be regular normal weak base or God Tier base when ever he wants. That has nothing to do with SSJ transformations.

He has no Base and "Base God". His base has God ki. His SSJ form multiplies his normal ki, while SSGSS multiplies the God ki. It follows the same logic Dragon Ball always did. No one should make up new theories when the old explanation still applies. There is no argument when one side doesn't have... well... arguments.

Lol, sorry, but if you think there's no arguments for our side then you have no idea what you're talking about.

1. This would cheapen the idea of Buu being the ultimate threat to the universe if guys like Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta etc. can beat him in one hit. We know for a fact at this point that Base Goku post SSG >>>>>>>> Kid Buu.
2. Piccolo's ridiculous power boost. He went from Cell Junior level in RoF to OHKOing Super Vegito! Wtf.
3. Goku's comment to Frost in the manga that he can become stronger by training. If Frost is RoF Frieza level, it means he trains. And you don't tell someone who trains to train, it just makes no logical sense.
4. It cheapens the idea of godly ki if there are too many people with it running around. Beerus, Whis, Hit, Goku and Vegeta and maybe Monaka are enough. We don't need Piccolo having godly ki out of nowhere, Cabba, Magetta, Frost etc. as well. It, again, cheapens the idea of Buu being the greatest threat to the universe.
5. Goku really wanted Buu to fight in the tournament, meaning he would have done well against U6, even though he doesn't train at all and eats and sleeps all day. How would a guy who doesn't train get a ridiculous power boost that would allow him to gain godly ki? I don't think so.
6. Frieza is a bigger prodigy than Goku and he never trained in his life, so he got more out of training than Goku did with Whis. How was it that Base Goku surpassed Final Form Frieza when Final Form Frieza was stronger than Base Goku as Beerus pointed out in BoG?

1. Buu was already Goku's bitch when he first appeared. He was only ever a threat because Goku wanted the kids to shine.
2. He trained. It's not like he got to that power without explaination. As bullshit as it might be, it's DB we are talking about.
3. That can be interpreted as "keep training".
4. Being strong doesn't mean you need to necessarily have God ki.
5. Because Buu is undestructible. He regenerated even from blasts from Beerus. He might not be the strongest of the team, but he does have other abilities that would help in a tournament.
6. Goku trained for three more years and was already stronger than Freeza's 4th form anyway. Frost is not as strong as Golden Freeza, however. He falls somewhere between the 4th form and the Golden form.

Also, none of those are relevant to Goku's two base theory.

[Bullza]

I don't see why Goku would become a lot weaker in base after training with Whis.

Well it'd just be because he doesn't have the full God power running through him unlike when he fought Beerus.

But it still makes no sense: Piccolo was Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level back in RoF. How did he get such a big jump? By your reasoning, why didn't he just go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and take on Buu by himself back during the Buu Saga?

Who could say. We know he trained and got stronger, you'd think he shouldn't be as strong as he seems to be but it could simply be a matter of writing and making Piccolo be as strong as he needs to be.

Back during before the Android saga he trained and jumped up so much he was almost Super Saiyan tier. It'd be similar to that I suppose.

Why did it go dormant though? When Goku fought Frieza and first went SSJ, he learned how to draw out SSJ by himself with no loss in power. Why can't he draw out the vast majority of the god power according to you?

Who can say about the why's. He can draw out all his God power but when he does it he becomes a SSJB now apparently. We can only go off a few facts.

1. Base Goku fighting Beerus was God tier

2. Base Goku was stronger after fighting Beerus than he was before fighting him.

3. SSJ Cabba is much stronger than Base Goku but even he still isn't God tier.

4. That'd mean Base Goku fighting in the Tournament isn't God tier.

5. That would mean that current Base Goku is not as strong as Base Goku who fought Beerus.

So the only conclusion I can come to is that he hasn't got all the God power he did when he could go toe to toe with Beerus but he still has enough God power to be a match for Frieza.

[Chiki]

Well it'd just be because he doesn't have the full God power running through him unlike when he fought Beerus.

Why though?

Who could say. We know he trained and got stronger, you'd think he shouldn't be as strong as he seems to be but it could simply be a matter of writing and making Piccolo be as strong as he needs to be.

Back during before the Android saga he trained and jumped up so much he was almost Super Saiyan tier. It'd be similar to that I suppose.

I never understood why people think Piccolo was almost as strong as SS Goku before he fused with Kami. He has little to no feats. Dr. Gero was pretty weak and the only reason Vegeta hesitated to fight him was because 1. his energy was absorbed a lot by Android 19 and 2. Dr. Gero had the same energy absorption crap so he didn't want to risk it.

Who can say about the why's. He can draw out all his God power but when he does it he becomes a SSJB now apparently. We can only go off a few facts.

1. Base Goku fighting Beerus was God tier

2. Base Goku was stronger after fighting Beerus than he was before fighting him.

3. SSJ Cabba is much stronger than Base Goku but even he still isn't God tier.

4. That'd mean Base Goku fighting in the Tournament isn't God tier.

5. That would mean that current Base Goku is not as strong as Base Goku who fought Beerus.

So the only conclusion I can come to is that he hasn't got all the God power he did when he could go toe to toe with Beerus but he still has enough God power to be a match for Frieza.

You're presupposing your view to prove your own view. Here's the problem: you think Goku lost most of his god power after fighting with Beerus. But 3 only follows if Base Goku.. lost most of his god power after fighting Beerus. There seems to be some circular reasoning here.

I'm also not sure what 2 means btw.

Also, none of those are relevant to Goku's two base theory.

I'm not responding to your posts anymore because tbh you don't understand the debate at hand.

[Hugo Boss]

Two questions: why godly ki doesn't change Base Goku's color as it changes Super Saiyan's? Wouldn't it be simpler to distinguish the forms?

I don't know why, it's because of Toriyama's design choices. Goku still kept godly ki after he lost SSG (evidenced by his ability to compete with 70% Beerus) but he lost his red hair at the same time.

The only thing I could say for this is that when he absorbed the God Ki, he was as strong as SSG but he just looked like plain old Gold haired SSJ. So if he reverted to Base and kept the God Ki on, why would it be any different? I think the result of SSJB having blue hair is just the form itself, multiplying the God Ki 50x and mixing the form's yellow hair with whatever color the God Ki's aura is. It would have made more sense if it were Super Saiyan White which is what Toriyama originally planned. I think you could put it in the same category as to why fusion's give those vests. It was stated that Goku lost the form but kept the power so that would explain his base looking normal with God Ki. After he trained with it, he became equal to SSG in his base, and went beyond that by multiplying it with Super Saiyan. I think you could also say that SSJB having Blue hair is just to separate it from normal SSJ. Also because Toriyama probably didn't think there would be a form beyond SSG or if he'd ever use the form again.

We don't know if Goku kept godly ki during that fight, Beerus only said Goku kept Super Saiyan God's power, which isn't exactly the same thing. Everyone could sense Goku's ki. Therefore, it wasn't godly ki they were sensing. In fact, some weeks ago, we were still wondering if SS and SSB were suposed to overwrite each other, but now it has been showed they are different states, with SSB having godly ki and more power.

I think the look is very important when you want to distinguish a form from another. Even Gohan didn't look exactly as he was in his Base form when he became Ultimate. I would expect Beyond God Goku should have at least some visual trait different from Base. We have SSB with a different hair color and aura, but this Beyond God form apparently is exactly the same as Base. It doesn't look as simple and consistent as Toriyama claims.

[Xeztin]

I think a lot are thinking that Super Saiyan Blue is a new form on its own but I don't think it is. it's the same old normal Super Saiyan we've all grown to love over the years and it's just multiplying Goku's Base W/God ki. For those that say Goku's base can't have God ki, how does SSJB become stronger than SSG? Super Saiyan is just a multiplier and if the base is weak, so is Super Saiyan. It makes no sense to me to say his base can't have God Ki but SSJ can since SSJ's overhaul power is dependent on the persons base form. Wouldn't Frieza's true form had stomped Goku's base if he wasn't using God Ki? why didn't he go normal instead of SSJB? We know that Goku likes to save his trump card for last, (Showing Beerus all 3 SSJ forms, not using SSJB in tourney) so why would he go all out? I think it was because the Earth was at stake, and he knew he had no chance without God Ki so he used it in his base from the very start. Freeza was even shocked about him staying in base when Goku replied "i think I'll stay like this". He saved his trump card for last which was SSJB. Also it was stated that Goku lost the SSG form but kept the power, and since SSG was basically a base Goku, I believe that was his base with God KI. I think at the time in that fight, he wasn't used to the Ki and the only way he could bring it out full power was using Super Saiyan. After training with it, I think he learned how to become as powerful as SSG in his base (without the form since he lost it) and used Super Saiyan to multiply it. If base equals SSG and he goes Super Saiyan then that whole Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan thing would make sense. I don't see how SSJB could be stronger than SSG if his base can't use God Ki. Also I'm not sure but I think Beerus stated he sensed the God Ki burning inside Goku.

[LowRyder2005]

He trained. It's not like he got to that power without explaination. As bullshit as it might be, it's DB we are talking about.

Most people are having a hard time accepting this theory for one reason and one reason only: it wrecks the entire narrative, both actively and retroactively. So, between a convoluted theory and one which goes against any logic whatsoever, the former feels like the lesser evil.
By all means and accounts, let's even highball Super Saiyan Gohan and say he's as strong as his Chou self (this, in turn, trying to overlook how everyone treats Buu: Buu is the first choice and not Gohan, everyone wanting Buu on their team to beat Freeza's army and so on, all indicating that Mr. Buu is supposed to be above anyone who isn't Goku, Vegeta and most likely Gotenks). Let's say he sparred with Ultimate Gohan during those months. Now:

* Piccolo never had such a big increase. This would be like him going from Super Saiyan level to Super Saiyan 4 in six months of random training. He would literally have gotten hundreds of times stronger.
* Numerically, Piccolo would have had a training regime two or three times more effective than Whis' own training regime + three years of ROSAT for Super Saiyan God level Goku and Vegeta.
* If Piccolo just sparred with Gohan, he would have curbstomped Super Buu just by training in the ROSAT alongside Gotenks.

While Akira Toriyama may not be overly concerned with the coherence of his narrative, Piccolo becoming "Super Saiyan Namek God Piccolo" the way it was presented to us, the public, would be far beyond your average plothole.
Now, whatever Goku's and Frost's level may actually be, assuming Piccolo is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku is beyond any rationale. I prefer to think that Frost was so fatigued he could barely defeat Perfect Cell (but, again, assuming everyone is God tier, you would have Frost - vs. Piccolo - at his... some 1% or 2%? It's a big stretch, but it works far better than the absurd power-up Piccolo would have received outtanowhere).

[TheMikado]

^ And this my friends is the core dilemma. We see forms like SSJ2 being hard won through blood sweat and tears in training and only a 2x boost. Emotional fusions with last selves and the even the ultimate transformation SSJ was so legendary that it last literally occurred 1000 years ago and have an insane multiplier of x50 and took over s year of training in the afterlife, months if extreme training in space and then the death of a close friend to unlock.

If Frost is indeed God Tier, it will require Piccolo to have an off screen power up of around x200 after a few months in the woods training with Gohan and no one even noticing it, yet the entire earth shaking when Goku boosts his power by x4 to hit SSJ3.....

We all understand it's a cartoon but there are certain things which are within the realm of believability in the universe and world building you create in that narrative. If while building your narrative things began to feel out of place in a world which you are given full freedom to create then you have failed as a story writer.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Here is what I see.

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God* through his fight with Beerus, and made it his own (as we saw in DBZ: Battle of Gods). Permanently (as we were shown in DBZ: Resurrection "F" manga adaptation & Dragon Ball Heroes). After he absorbed the power, he became insignificantly weaker than SSG (as it was stated in DBZ: Battle of Gods), and his regular Super Saiyan form made him exactly as strong as SSG (as it was stated in Dragon Ball Super), meaning that it gave him a really small boost in power. But after doing training as a Super Saiyan, his regular Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue (as it was explained in DBZ: Dokkan Battle). In Champa arc, Goku & Vegeta have been fighting as regular Super Saiyans, which once again gives them a x50 boost instead of a small one, and they can go from regular Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue. Their regular & Super Saiyan forms also fall at a level close to guys like Botamo, Piccolo, Frost, Magetta, and Cabba. So, from what I see, their transformations work like this:

Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue
Regular form -> Regular form with SSG power -> Super Saiyan Blue

Even looking at the Dragon Ball Super anime alone, not only there is almost nothing that contradicts any of this**, but there are even implications that suggest all of these.

*Despite what most people believe, the SSG power & god ki are not the same thing. It was stated that SS Goku was as strong as SSG Goku in BoG arc, yet everyone could sense his ki, which means that he doesn't have godly ki.
**The only thing against it is that time where Whis & the Oracle Fish talk as if regular Super Saiyan would give Goku & Vegeta, who had SSG power in their regular form, a big boost... but this episode wasn't written by Toriyama, and Toriyama wasn't involved with it as far as we know, so it could be a mistake that was made by Toei's scriptwriter.

Despite all these, I don't get why people prefer to ignore official sources (I get why people doubt the video-games, even though they don't contradict anything in this case, but disregard Toriyama's movies & own words in favor of Toei's anime?!) and make up their own fan-theories that Goku lost part of his SSG power, Piccolo magically reached the level of gods while being weaker than Majin Boo at the same time, and all of the U6 fighter being at the level of gods even though a few of them are lazy fighters. And then, the same people complain about DB Super being inconsistent with battle powers... Well, whatever.

[Bullza]

Why though?

Who can say, I don't know but King Kai's dialogue about him learning to become a Super Saiyan God on his own makes it sound like during his time training he learned how to bring out all that power once again.

He had the power against Beerus, it went somewhat dormant afterwards and then he re-obtained this power without going the ritual.

Here's the problem: you think Goku lost most of his god power after fighting with Beerus.

I do. It's obvious that Base Goku, Vegeta, Cabba and all these others Piccolo, Magetta and Frost are not above a 6. They are clearly not God tier and so should not be as strong as the Base Goku who held his own against Beerus.

So peoples reasoning for this is that he has two base forms one with and without God Ki. However it's just a theory, one that I come up with first at that.

It was mentioned that maybe the white aura signified he has God Ki on but no it doesn't seem that way at all.

Goku shows up on Beerus' planet and comments on Vegeta's strenght and how he's unrecognisable so that'd suggest he'd have God Ki turned on but why would he have it turned on then but not when he's fighting people?

What real evidence is there to say that he can turn it on and off in base form? Him being stronger than Frieza is the only indication but we don't know that Frieza was God tier himself and we don't know how much of Goku's training accounted for him being stronger.

Plus as I said the two base theory is unlikely just for how confusing it would be.

[TheMikado]

Here is what I see.

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God* through his fight with Beerus, and made it his own (as we saw in DBZ: Battle of Gods). Permanently (as we were shown in DBZ: Resurrection "F" manga adaptation & Dragon Ball Heroes). After he absorbed the power, he became insignificantly weaker than SSG (as it was stated in DBZ: Battle of Gods), and his regular Super Saiyan form made him exactly as strong as SSG (as it was stated in Dragon Ball Super), meaning that it gave him a really small boost in power. But after doing training as a Super Saiyan, his regular Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue (as it was explained in DBZ: Dokkan Battle). In Champa arc, Goku & Vegeta have been fighting as regular Super Saiyans, which once again gives them a x50 boost instead of a small one, and they can go from regular Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue. Their regular & Super Saiyan forms also fall at a level close to guys like Botamo, Piccolo, Frost, Magetta, and Cabba. So, from what I see, their transformations work like this:

Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue
Regular form -> Regular form with SSG power -> Super Saiyan Blue

So I'm totally not understanding this, what would base SSJ be on the 6-10-16 God scale? About a 0.12 and I would put Frost at about a 5 on that God scale. Even if Piccolo got to their base level which is SSJ3 level but inncreasing his power a very generous x4, he still would be 50x weaker or about 5000% weaker than Frost.

[LightBing]

Here is what I see.

Spoiler:

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God* through his fight with Beerus, and made it his own (as we saw in DBZ: Battle of Gods). Permanently (as we were shown in DBZ: Resurrection "F" manga adaptation & Dragon Ball Heroes). After he absorbed the power, he became insignificantly weaker than SSG (as it was stated in DBZ: Battle of Gods), and his regular Super Saiyan form made him exactly as strong as SSG (as it was stated in Dragon Ball Super), meaning that it gave him a really small boost in power. But after doing training as a Super Saiyan, his regular Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue (as it was explained in DBZ: Dokkan Battle). In Champa arc, Goku & Vegeta have been fighting as regular Super Saiyans, which once again gives them a x50 boost instead of a small one, and they can go from regular Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue. Their regular & Super Saiyan forms also fall at a level close to guys like Botamo, Piccolo, Frost, Magetta, and Cabba. So, from what I see, their transformations work like this:

Regular form -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan Blue
Regular form -> Regular form with SSG power -> Super Saiyan Blue

Even looking at the Dragon Ball Super anime alone, not only there is almost nothing that contradicts any of this**, but there are even implications that suggest all of these.

*Despite what most people believe, the SSG power & god ki are not the same thing. It was stated that SS Goku was as strong as SSG Goku in BoG arc, yet everyone could sense his ki, which means that he doesn't have godly ki.
**The only thing against it is that time where Whis & the Oracle Fish talk as if regular Super Saiyan would give Goku & Vegeta, who had SSG power in their regular form, a big boost... but this episode wasn't written by Toriyama, and Toriyama wasn't involved with it as far as we know, so it could be a mistake that was made by Toei's scriptwriter.

Despite all these, I don't get why people prefer to ignore official sources (I get why people doubt the video-games, even though they don't contradict anything in this case, but disregard Toriyama's movies & own words in favor of Toei's anime?!) and make up their own fan-theories that Goku lost part of his SSG power, Piccolo magically reached the level of gods while being weaker than Majin Boo at the same time, and all of the U6 fighter being at the level of gods even though a few of them are lazy fighters. And then, the same people complain about DB Super being inconsistent with battle powers... Well, whatever.

With all due respect, don't you see your hypocrisy by saying people are ignoring official sources, whilst doing the same. Mainly the Whis line. The line is pretty direct, I admit to ignoring it, based almost on all the same grounds as you. Not really ignoring but giving more weight to Beerus line, that can't be proven wrong in BoG.

I'll add this possible contradiction to Base = SSJG.
Champa called Goku and Vegeta weaklings when they were with the heavy suits, assuming the tournament was already won. I don't think it would make sense for them to be holding back at the time, they were training to get stronger and Whis wouldn't give them weights that wouldn't challenge them.
Then when Goku was fighting Botamo, while still digesting food. Champa says he's exactly the same as before(with the weighs).
Yet Goku still powers up to SSJ, getting a decent increase based on his fight with Frost. Leaving very little room for the two base theory.

By the way, I'm not trying to antagonize you. I like how you actually try to back up what you're saying, with actual quotes and events and not fairy dust. But I had to call you out on that one.

The biggest argument to be made against the two base theory is it's confusing nature, which has people like us, who dissect the show guessing. Mr.Toriyama right before the show said he expected it to be simple like Dragon Ball was. Were we have characters pointing out power gains constantly and were the transformations all have visual cues. This is made for children, the author said it himself.
Simplicity!

[Chiki]

I don't want to make premature conclusions just yet, but Episode 38 is airing and apparently Base Goku is putting up a better fight against Hit than SSGSS Vegeta, pretty much confirming the two Bases theory. We'll be able to make a better conclusion once it comes out and gets translated properly.

[ZombieVito]

Two bases theory confirmed.

[Lord Beerus]

Okay, from the latest episode it as though Goku in his base form was able to make Hit bleed, now unless there is more to this, it seems as though the Goku is his base form... is stronger than SSJB?

What.

It seems as though the Godly ki on/off switch deal is officially a thing.

[Saiyan007]

it just proves thier bases forms are god tier

[Chiki]

Okay, from the latest episode it as though Goku in his base form was able to make Hit bleed, now unless there is more to this, it seems as though the Goku is his base form... is stronger than SSJB?

What.

It seems as though the Godly ki on/off switch deal is officially a thing.

That's what you nonbelievers get.

[Bullza]

Yeah.....it certainly makes it more confusing again. I wouldn't necessarily say that alone confirms the two base theory. Goku realised Hit's trick so regardless of being stronger or weaker he should put up a better fight just from knowledge alone.

There was no indication at all that this Goku was stronger than the one who fought Botamo, there was no white aura, no power up scene and we'll see with the subtitles but it doesn't look like he made any comment about it either.

On the other hand Goku was able to make Hit bleed and it doesn't look like he's going to just lay him out with one blow as a SSJB either. So if Hit can withstand SSJB Goku's attacks then should Base Goku be making him bleed if he's hundreds of times weaker? Goku was also able to withstand his attacks and you'd think just one would be enough.

So yeah I really don't know.

[pacz360]

This really doesn't confirm the two base theory :/

[Lord Beerus]

Monaka is pretty much a weakling.

From Herms on Twitter:

''Whis reveals that Monaka is simply a "total amateur" and that Beerus lied to Goku and Vegeta to help motivate them.''

I guess we can scratch him off the God scale.

[Birusu16]

I don't see how this confirms anything. Goku put up a better fight because he figured out how to counter Hit's ability. Vegeta had no idea how to counter it.