Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Hit is actually strong you need to be a SSB to beat him at the very least besides him Ko Vegeta proves he has the strength behind his hax

How do you figure that?? It's looks like SSJ alone would do the job they way Base Goku is fighting unless Hit has a technique that increased his power by x50. I mean Base Goku made Hit Bleed. SSJ Vegeta didn't even do that to Cabba but one punch KOed him in SSB.

[Saiyan007]

So now that we know Hit is gimmicky and not raw power and monaka is a fraud that makes Goku and Vegeta the two most powerful by a wide margin. Also the throwing Vegeta scraps bit is getting REALLY OLD.

Hit is actually strong you need to be a SSB to beat him at the very least besides him Ko Vegeta proves he has the strength behind his hax

How do you figure that?? It's looks like SSJ alone would do the job they way Base Goku is fighting unless Hit has a technique that increased his power by x50. I mean Base Goku made Hit Bleed. SSJ Vegeta didn't even do that to Cabba but one punch KOed him in SSB.

He hurt a SSJB Vegeta that alone puts him on that level pressure points or not.He has to get passed Vegeta's durability to perform those pressure points,Gohan can't use pressure points on SSJB vegeta because he's not strong enough to get passed SSJB Vegeta's durability.

Also Hit was supressed against Goku

The Next Episode Preview for DBS ep.39:
Hey, this is Goku! I tried to look all cool by saying I'd beaten the Time-Skip, but when Hit gets down to business he's stronger than I imagined! Just what you'd expect from the best in Universe 6! But I'm gonna take him on with my trump card I've been hiding this whole time! Next week on Dragon Ball Super: "A Fully-Developed ‘Time-Skip’ Counterattack!? Is It Coming!? Goku’s New Technique!" Definitely check it out!

[dbzfan7]

GT's power scale was more consistent than this. Would it kill them to spare a few lines to tell us what exactly is going on? I know "power levels" is anathema for many people, but at the very least there should be some consistency in how strong these characters are relative to each other. Right now it seems like anyone can do anything.

I know I was just laughing while watching the EP. Though even before it I already concluded the series was saying fuck all and did whatever it wanted.

[Chiki]

The pressure point attacks I can understand, but can Hit actually alter time like that?

It appears so.

Bulma tells Jaco to arrest Hit for breaking the galactic laws against time control, but both he and the Galactic King decide to ignore it

Now that I think about it, Goku didn't have an aura which means his base power didn't change. Theory finally deconfirmed?

Are you for real? The two bases theory never says that the aura thing is consistent. Animators could be lazy or maybe Toriyama neglected to tell them to do it. It's not meant to be like an SS transformation.

Half of this comes down to knowledge though. Vegeta didn't know about Hit's time skip ability and Goku did. That gives Goku a huge advantage regardless of how much stronger Vegeta might have been.

Yes it does. But if you guys are right about there not being two bases, then Base Goku should not have been able to touch Hit because the power gap is too great, even if it comes down partially to technique. I mean, SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so how the f could Base Cabba be able to touch Hit at all, even if he knew Hit's technique? Impossible.

I don't see how even the two base theory can fix this power inconsistency now. Vegeta was done in 3 hits and then in walks some kind of base Goku.... Like Hit power doesn't immediately make him ultra powerful too and base Goku proves that.

Like someone else said. According to the two base theory:

1. The gap between Base w/ godly ki and SSB is not that great (maybe like x2 multiplier or even less than that)
2. Goku figured out Hit's technique so he did a lot better. SSB Vegeta got screwed over because he didn't know Hit's technique.

Time skip and hitting pressure points.

Did you watch Hokuto no Ken? You can't hit someone's pressure points if you're not strong enough. SSB Vegeta's ki shield (the existence of which prevents his clothes and bones from being torn apart by ki blasts millions of times stronger than nuclear bombs) should be preventing Hit from touching his pressure points if the power difference between them is that great to begin with.

Goku putting up a better fight had nothing to do with strength. It had to do with him figuring out how to counter Hit's time skipping, which was something Vegeta wasn't able to do.

Do you think Base Cabba who got owned by SSB Vegeta in one hit would be able to fight Hit?

[TheMikado]

He hurt a SSJB Vegeta that alone puts him on that level pressure points or not.He has to get passed Vegeta's durability to perform those pressure points,Gohan can't use pressure points on SSJB vegeta because he's not strong enough to get passed SSJB Vegeta's durability.

Also Hit was supressed against Goku

The Next Episode Preview for DBS ep.39:
Hey, this is Goku! I tried to look all cool by saying I'd beaten the Time-Skip, but when Hit gets down to business he's stronger than I imagined! Just what you'd expect from the best in Universe 6! But I'm gonna take him on with my trump card I've been hiding this whole time! Next week on Dragon Ball Super: "A Fully-Developed ‘Time-Skip’ Counterattack!? Is It Coming!? Goku’s New Technique!" Definitely check it out!

What so what makes you think Hit wasn't surpressed against SSB Vegeta? According to your own rules he would need to be strong enough to hit them but he didn't look like he had powered up or down between Vegeta and Goku.

[Saiyan007]

What so what makes you think Hit wasn't surpressed against SSB Vegeta? According to your own rules he would need to be strong enough to hit them but he didn't look like he had powered up or down between Vegeta and Goku

does it matter if he looked like he powered up?He doesn't have to

They can raise thier power levels in an instant just look at Goku vs Recoome and burter and jeice

[TheMikado]

What so what makes you think Hit wasn't surpressed against SSB Vegeta? According to your own rules he would need to be strong enough to hit them but he didn't look like he had powered up or down between Vegeta and Goku

does it matter if he looked like he powered up?He doesn't have to

They can raise thier power levels in an instant just look at Goku vs Recoome and burter and jeice

He would have to instantaneous raise or lower his power levels by 5000% alone just to account for SSJ not even SSB. Not character in the history of any Dragonball series has done that instantaneously without a power up or noticeable change. I guess I'll just chalk it up to another ability we have to make up for the story to make any sense.

[Saiyan007]

He would have to instantaneous raise or lower his power levels by 5000% alone just to account for SSJ not even SSB. Not character in the history of any Dragonball series has done that instantaneously without a power up or noticeable change. I guess I'll just chalk it up to another ability we have to make up for the story to make any sense.

He simply can raise his power level to whatever it seems fit no need to make up some convoluted explanation

[Bullza]

But if you guys are right about there being two bases, then Base Goku should not have been able to touch Hit because the power gap is too great, even if it comes down partially to technique. I mean, SSB Vegeta owned SSJ Cabba in one hit, so how the f could Base Cabba be able to touch Hit at all, even if he knew Hit's technique? Impossible.

He should be able to touch because he's predicting what he's going to do. It's not like they're fighting back and forth like normal and he's keeping with him, he's intercepting the attack before it happens, he's overcoming speed by predicting his opponents moves.

It's entirely possible that Base Cabba could have touched Hit though it entirely depends on if he has the skill that Goku has to predict his opponents moves.

Most of what's going on here has very little to do with power for once. It's knowledge and skill for a change.

But more important than anything is like I said there was no indication that he could turn on and off his God Ki. If that theory was the truth then why aren't the writers making that clear to anyone?

[TheMikado]

He would have to instantaneous raise or lower his power levels by 5000% alone just to account for SSJ not even SSB. Not character in the history of any Dragonball series has done that instantaneously without a power up or noticeable change. I guess I'll just chalk it up to another ability we have to make up for the story to make any sense.

He simply can raise his power level to whatever it seems fit no need to make up some convoluted explanation

This isn't convoluted, this is unprecedented. The difference in power that we are talking about is a magnitude of even greater order than that between Buu and Nameck Freeza. This type of power jump you're talking about isn't common without it being explicitly stated and almost always haves a visual cue to match it.

[Chiki]

He should be able to touch because he's predicting what he's going to do. It's not like they're fighting back and forth like normal and he's keeping with him, he's intercepting the attack before it happens, he's overcoming speed by predicting his opponents moves.

It's entirely possible that Base Cabba could have touched Hit though it entirely depends on if he has the skill that Goku has to predict his opponents moves.

Most of what's going on here has very little to do with power for once. It's knowledge and skill for a change.

But more important than anything is like I said there was no indication that he could turn on and off his God Ki. If that theory was the truth then why aren't the writers making that clear to anyone?

The gap between Base Cabba and Hit is way too big. Even with full knowledge of technique Base Cabba just wouldn't be able to do any damage to Hit.

SSB Vegeta got owned by Hit, who owned SSJ Cabba in one hit (no pun intended). Base Cabba got owned by SS Vegeta. Even if Cabba did predict Hit's moves, I doubt he could muster enough power to even block them. On the other hand, SS Vegeta tanked SS Cabba's most powerful attack with his head like it was nothing. Do you really think Base Cabba can do any damage to Hit when he couldn't even do damage to SS Vegeta's head as an SS?

Look, by your logic, Base Goku shouldn't even be able to do damage to SS Vegeta because he is equal to Base Cabba. But he here is putting up a good fight against Hit who owned SSB Vegeta.

Base Goku is far far above SS Cabba, period. I think after this ep the two bases theory is so obvious that there's just no room for debate.

There's a lot of confusing things that the writers aren't explaining to begin with, like Piccolo's insane power boost if the two bases theory is wrong. This is not a problem with the two bases theory.

[TheMikado]

^ I agree, where do you put Base Goku in this in relation to SSB?

[Chiki]

^ I agree, where do you put Base Goku in this in relation to SSB?

I think the gap is pretty small since SSG Goku is a 6 and his power didn't drop down much, but SSB Goku is still below Beerus. Let's say Base Goku w/ SSG power is a 6 in Champa arc, then SSB Goku would be an 8 or a 9. So a x1.5 or less boost.

[TheMikado]

^ I agree, where do you put Base Goku in this in relation to SSB?

I think the gap is pretty small since SSG Goku is a 6 and his power didn't drop down much, but SSB Goku is still below Beerus. Let's say Base Goku w/ SSG power is a 6 in Champa arc, then SSB Goku would be an 8 or a 9. So a x1.5 or less boost.

The problem I have with that is that Toriyama said that not only would they not surpass Beerus but at this time there's no plans for them to be even close. Even without the rumored Kaioken SSB that's too close to Beerus power levels based on the Toriyama interview.

[Chiki]

^ I agree, where do you put Base Goku in this in relation to SSB?

I think the gap is pretty small since SSG Goku is a 6 and his power didn't drop down much, but SSB Goku is still below Beerus. Let's say Base Goku w/ SSG power is a 6 in Champa arc, then SSB Goku would be an 8 or a 9. So a x1.5 or less boost.

The problem I have with that is that Toriyama said that not only would they not surpass Beerus but at this time there's no plans for them to be even close. Even without the rumored Kaioken SSB that's too close to Beerus power levels based on the Toriyama interview.

But they have been kinda close, ever since BoG when Beerus needed to use 70% of his power. And Goku has gotten a new transformation since then, so he should be a decent amount closer, unless you agree with Birusu16 and you think Goku has gotten stronger in tiny decimals since then (like Champa arc SSB Goku is a 6.3 or something lol after a year of training and a new transformation). But it's obvious that that view is wrong since you don't get a mere 6+0.3 boost after training for a year and getting a new transformation.

Also, Goku and Vegeta probably aren't going to reach Beerus level unless something new happens (new transformation, new method of training, new enemy to train with and push them etc.) because Vegeta already said they were at the limits of their power. It's not going to happen for a while probably.

[Bullza]

The gap between Base Cabba and Hit is way too big. Even with full knowledge of technique Base Cabba just wouldn't be able to do any damage to Hit.

Then base Goku shouldn't have either but he did. He, Vegeta and Cabba are all on the same level.

SSB Vegeta got owned by Hit, who owned SSJ Cabba in one hit (no pun intended). Base Cabba got owned by SS Vegeta. Even if Cabba did predict Hit's moves, I doubt he could muster enough power to even block them.

SSJB Vegeta got owned by Hit because he didn't know what was going on.

SSJB Vegeta is equal to SSJB Goku. SSJB Goku does not look to be getting owned by what could be a powered up Hit. If Goku had fought him first maybe it'd be the other way around.

If SSJB Vegeta landed a solid punch on Hit then maybe he'd have knocked him out but he never touched him.

Maybe a characters level of power doesn't matter when it comes to striking pressure points and that's why SSJB and base seem to be able to withstand the same attacks to an extent.

I think after this ep the two bases theory is so obvious that there's just no room for debate.

Of course it's not obvious there's no indication that this base Goku is hundreds of times more powerful than the base Goku who fought Botamo. None.

[Doctor.]

Considering nobody commented on Goku's power increasing and base Goku made Hit bleed, I think we can assume the two base theory was debunked this episode.

Or just go with the flow and accept that battle powers at this point are fucked beyond redemption.

[TheMikado]

But they have been kinda close, ever since BoG when Beerus needed to use 70% of his power. And Goku has gotten a new transformation since then, so he should be a decent amount closer, unless you agree with Birusu16 and you think Goku has gotten stronger in tiny decimals since then (like Champa arc SSB Goku is a 6.3 or something lol after a year of training and a new transformation). But it's obvious that that view is wrong since you don't get a mere 6+0.3 boost after training for a year and getting a new transformation.

Also, Goku and Vegeta probably aren't going to reach Beerus level unless something new happens (new transformation, new method of training, new enemy to train with and push them etc.) because Vegeta already said they were at the limits of their power. It's not going to happen for a while probably.

We know this because we care about the story and overall narrative but Toriyama says their not. Even the line about Goku and Vegeta teaming up to beat Beerus seems to indicate they're above 50% Beerus. If they are basically 8 or 9 and can't go any further according to Toriyama who says they shouldn't even be close where are we supposed to go from here?

[Chiki]

Then base Goku shouldn't have either but he did. He, Vegeta and Cabba are all on the same level.

Do you really think Base Cabba can make Hit bleed when he couldn't do any damage to SS Vegeta's head as an SS? Come on, judging from your previous posts I know you're a reasonable guy.

Considering nobody commented on Goku's power increasing and base Goku made Hit bleed, I think we can assume the two base theory was debunked this episode.

LOL it's the opposite. If Goku's power increased due to SSG power, then it would be due to godly ki which cannot be felt to begin with.

[TheMikado]

Considering nobody commented on Goku's power increasing and base Goku made Hit bleed, I think we can assume the two base theory was debunked this episode.

Or just go with the flow and accept that battle powers at this point are fucked beyond redemption.

This is the only other option but that mean people have to come to terms that Super and Toriyama to a certain extent have this entire series poorly written as far as power levels and probably nothing can save them for the rest of the entire series.