"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

NamekianSaiyan, Gohan does have the capability to have the warrior mentality. I'm pretty sure Piccolo says he hasn't had it for a long time, which implies he used to. If Piccolo can't bring him back to the fighter that he used to be, then he's a horrible teacher.

Kanassa, trust me. You're not the only one. I guarantee there are tons of people who hate Gohan being relevant. You guys probably are the minority though.

Kanassa's quote didn't exactly say he didn't like that Gohan is relevant though.

True. He just doesn't like him being as relevant as Goku. Still a lot of people would agree. I don't think he is as relevant as Goku though.

That is not what I said.

My post had nothing to do with relevancy, it was simply that I didn't like from a narritive point of view GOhan's character getting this powerful after the Cell saga, Buu Saga and all the time pre-ROF

[Draconic]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Tell you what, to prove your point that consistent narrative means little let's take War & Peace and put all its pages in random order and see how much of a literary masterpiece it turns out to be.

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Reading the spoilers gohan becomes super strong again in 6 hours of basic training with piccolo?

What was the point of watching goku and vegeta train again?

Where is the narrative consistency

But Vegeta and Goku aren't trianing...? Anyway Vegeta said it in episode 29 that Gohan as the highest potential of all so if anything they are sticking to the previous narrative.

[Gafonso6]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Tell you what, to prove your point that consistent narrative means little let's take War & Peace and put all its pages in random order and see how much of a literary masterpiece it turns out to be.

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

How about this? Consitency isn't the death of creativity, consistency IMO the death of Dragon Ball.

[TheMikado]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Tell you what, to prove your point that consistent narrative means little let's take War & Peace and put all its pages in random order and see how much of a literary masterpiece it turns out to be.

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

Fine, let's not even do that then. Just randomly number and air the episodes and see how much sense it makes. Narrative consistency is there for a reason, because the show is serialized. Arguing against narrative consistency because its a "kids show" is a total cope out when the basics of narrative consistency at taught in preschool.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Show what your are really saying is that that Dragonball is not for anyone with a concept of sequential order and is really only suitable for infants and those with IQ level below that which is necessary to understand "narrative consistency".

[amuroray]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Arguably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum

Narrative consistency is the basis for every great story, children show or not. literally nothing matters in this show. How is that fun?

[TheMikado]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Arguably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum

Narrative consistency is the basis for every great story, children show or not. literally nothing matters in this show. How is that fun?

Its one of the more common arguments on this forum for some reason. Its really and truly bizarre.

[amuroray]

Reading the spoilers gohan becomes super strong again in 6 hours of basic training with piccolo?

What was the point of watching goku and vegeta train again?

Where is the narrative consistency

But Vegeta and Goku aren't trianing...? Anyway Vegeta said it in episode 29 that Gohan as the highest potential of all so if anything they are sticking to the previous narrative.

Pretty much the whole of super has been goku and vegeta training no stop in training conditions no other character has been through bar beerus. They are literally gods. Gohan went on a camping trip and a few hours later his on par with those lot. Android 17 has been fighting nobodies for how long and bam hes on par with goku.

Com on it makes zero sense and i have wasted all that time watching goku and vegeta train.

[Draconic]

How the fuck does consistency equal sequencing? It's exactly why your example made no sense.

[LowRyder2005]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Tell you what, to prove your point that consistent narrative means little let's take War & Peace and put all its pages in random order and see how much of a literary masterpiece it turns out to be.

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

His example looks quite on point, to me. "Consistency" means following an appealing, palatable or simply logically acceptable progression. If you take a literary masterpiece, dissect it and then reassemble it without any semblance of its former logical progression, the former masterpiece will lose all of its literary value.

Honestly, I believe you might just be confusing "consistency" with "inability to create something new or interesting", or treating the two as mutually exclusive concepts.

[amuroray]

When the "narrative consistency" meant characters being thrown in the dust, lame fights and shitty conflicts like pretty much everything in Z post-Freeza, you bet people are happy when someone decides to throw that shit out the window.

Consistency is the death of creativity. Good luck neither Toei nor Toriyama give a shit about that (and never have). If you can't enjoy a stupid kid show, don't watch it. Some watch Dragon Ball to have fun, not to satisfy their pretentiousness or put down others.

Pointing out how some thing doesn't make sense, doesn't make you smarter than anybody. Especially since time and time again people who do are either looking too much into things or are outright wrong. But hey, let's call everything shit, messed up or stupid. That doesn't shut down any kind of discussion.

Arguably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum

Narrative consistency is the basis for every great story, children show or not. literally nothing matters in this show. How is that fun?

Its one of the more common arguments on this forum for some reason. Its really and truly bizarre.

Its crazy mate. Things have to mean something or theres no point to the show.

[precita]

Where do people get the idea Gohan is surpassing Goku in this episode? It might happen as Super progresses, but there's no reason to think it happens in this training ep

[Draconic]

Tell you what, to prove your point that consistent narrative means little let's take War & Peace and put all its pages in random order and see how much of a literary masterpiece it turns out to be.

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

His example looks quite on point, to me. "Consistency" means following an appealing, palatable or simply logically acceptable progression. If you take a literary masterpiece, dissect it and then reassemble it without any semblance of its former logical progression, the former masterpiece will lose all of its literary value.

Honestly, I believe you might just be confusing "consistency" with "inability to create something new or interesting", or treating the two as mutually exclusive concepts.

No, consistency means following a set of rules or principles. The greatest artists have had their work make an impact by spinning this logic on it's head and either not follow the rules of their medium or changing them to fit their vision. That doesn't mean putting pages in random order, that means changing ideas, introducing new ones or sometimes even dropping everything and just doing what feels right.

[Lapislettuce]

We got SSJB Goku V Krillin and SSJB Goku V 17... SSJB Goku V Ultimate Gohan wouldnt hurt as much as those did, especially since Ultimate Gohan was the most powerful non fused character back in the days Goku would originally need a level above SSJ3 to match him up.

Excuse me ? 17 has been training for over a decade,Gohan has just gained his mystic form back and i'm supposed to believe that he can match Goku or even surpass him ? the fandom is just biased towards non saiyan are simple as that,hypocrisy makes me sick.

Training for... what exactly? what motivated him? protecting animals? because motivation plays a big factor on how much you gain sometimes especially with Saiyans who goes with rage well, Freeza had the motive to kill Goku and was really obsessed with it, Gohan has this tournament where all of em could die if they lose, 17 is what? I woulda accepted it if it went well with his boost like have Bulma add a new bio part inside him to make him stronger.

17 had over a decade to upgrade his strength and he's not 16 he's not a machine he doesn't need Bulma's upgrades,Toriyama already said 17 has an enormous potencial he also pointed out that 17 and 18 could both train to obtain their powers and they both don't need to sleep,don't need to eat and can't get weaker they can only win in strength ,as far as motivation goes 17 enjoyed feeling like the strongest and moreover he was humiliated so that alone is a motivation to train not to mention he said it many times that he protects that island on his own and hasn't been sitting his ass all this time,so how does that makes less sense than training for 2 hours in the mountains ? i have nothing againts Gohan but if people weren't salty with 17's boost me and other fans wouldn't be slaty now when Gohan will get his boost. have a good day.

[namekiansaiyan]

Can't wait for Goku to turn Blue against Piccolo and Gohan.

And what on earth could Tien do, he's even weaker than Krillin...

By the end of the epsiode Tien will be stronger than Krillin.

What is wrong with Goku turning SS Blue against Piccolo and Gohan?

Where do people get the idea Gohan is surpassing Goku in this episode? It might happen as Super progresses, but there's no reason to think it happens in this training ep

He probably won't be stronger than Goku.

[SansrivaaL]

17 had over a decade to upgrade his strength and he's not 16 he's not a machine he doesn't need Bulma's upgrades,Toriyama already said 17 has an enormous potencial he also pointed out that 17 and 18 could both train to obtain their powers and they both don't need to sleep,don't need to eat and can't get weaker they can only win in strength ,as far as motivation goes 17 enjoyed feeling like the strongest and moreover he was humiliated so that alone is a motivation to train not to mention he said it many times that he protects that island on his own and hasn't been sitting his ass all this time,so how does that makes less sense than training for 2 hours in the mountains ? i have nothing againts Gohan but if people weren't salty with 17's boost me and other fans wouldn't be slaty now when Gohan will get his boost. have a good day.

What makes it different? the leap, 17 jumped from below ascended SSJ level to low God tier, thats 3 leaps all from training in the woods for protecting animals, that is not a good enough motivation compared to whats at stake here and Freeza's, they all had a goal in mind, what was 17's? he also wasnt training 24/7 either, he has a job I highly doubt he would prioritze training over his job, he didnt even care about earth's destruction, he is more of a go with the flow guy compared to his previous self. I think theres barely anyone here that doesnt like Gohan fighting against a SSJB, its that if Gohan beats SSJB in a fair match its not because of bias, its because Gohan's already above SSJ3, whats logically next after that? so yeah ofc Goku goes SSJB since Gohan got his ultimate form back.

[Lapislettuce]

17 had over a decade to upgrade his strength and he's not 16 he's not a machine he doesn't need Bulma's upgrades,Toriyama already said 17 has an enormous potencial he also pointed out that 17 and 18 could both train to obtain their powers and they both don't need to sleep,don't need to eat and can't get weaker they can only win in strength ,as far as motivation goes 17 enjoyed feeling like the strongest and moreover he was humiliated so that alone is a motivation to train not to mention he said it many times that he protects that island on his own and hasn't been sitting his ass all this time,so how does that makes less sense than training for 2 hours in the mountains ? i have nothing againts Gohan but if people weren't salty with 17's boost me and other fans wouldn't be slaty now when Gohan will get his boost. have a good day.

What makes it different? the leap, 17 jumped from below ascended SSJ level to low God tier, thats 3 leaps all from training in the woods for protecting animals, that is not a good enough motivation compared to whats at stake here and Freeza's, they all had a goal in mind, what was 17's? he also wasnt training 24/7 either, he has a job I highly doubt he would prioritze training over his job, he didnt even care about earth's destruction, he is more of a go with the flow guy compared to his previous self. I think theres barely anyone here that doesnt like Gohan fighting against a SSJB, its that if Gohan beats SSJB in a fair match its not because of bias, its because Gohan's already above SSJ3, whats logically next after that? so yeah ofc Goku goes SSJB since Gohan got his ultimate form back.

Already explained his motivation in my previous comment and he already said he's been training and Toriyama already already said he has an enormous potential since you guys like using the word "potential" to explain Gohan's huge power ups all the time,and if you think people are going to be okay then you're wrong,i've seen multipe memes on the internet calling out the hypcrisy of the fandom and i've also seen youtube comments who are calling it out too and calling bs on that,just because you're baised doesn't mean all the other fans are dear.

[TheMikado]

How the fuck does consistency equal sequencing? It's exactly why your example made no sense.

Consistency vs Sequence - What's the difference?
http://wikidiff.com/consistency/sequence

As nouns the difference between consistency and sequence is that consistency is local coherence while sequence is a set of things next to each other in a set order; a series.

Coherence

Definition of coherence
1
: the quality or state of cohering: such as
a : systematic or logical connection or consistency The essay as a whole lacks coherence.
b : integration of diverse elements, relationships, or values

Sequence is an aspect of coherence and consistency. You cannot truly have consistency without sequence.

A consistent AND coherent narrative should flow and is a basic fundamental skill taught in pre-school.

Cohesion and Coherence in Preschool Children's Picture-Elicited Narratives.
Shapiro, Lauren R.; Hudson, Judith A.
Factors that may influence the picture-elicited narrative production of 4-year-old children were examined. Subjects were 70 children of 4 years of age who told narratives about two familiar events: baking cookies and going to the beach. Of the sample, 22 children in a description condition described each of 6 line drawings for each event. Another 22 children in a standard condition narrated stories without previewing the pictures. In The remaining 26 children, in a preview condition, previewed the pictures before narrating stories. For half of the children in each condition, the pictures included a problem-resolution sequence; for the other half, the pictures included an uneventful sequence. Findings revealed that 4-year-olds differentiated between descriptions and stories in the complexity of their narratives and in their use of tense and pronouns. The episodic structure of the narratives influenced measures of linguistic cohesion with the result that children produced more coherent stories and tended to use a more complex pronoun strategy in the problem-resolution version. The preview condition, in comparison to the description condition, resulted in improved stories. It is concluded that 4-year-olds are capable of narrating problem-resolution stories when pictures are used as aids. (Author/RH) https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED317284

I also recommend you cite your sources...

To link this all together, you made the argument that consistency isn't necessary for a children's show and stifles creativity.
Actually research shows that coherence and sequencing are aspects of consistency and that children are able to understand and explain the concepts of consistency, coherence, and sequencing.

[SansrivaaL]

Already explained his motivation in my previous comment and he already said he's been training and Toriyama already already said he has an enormous potential since you guys like using the word "potential" to explain Gohan's huge power ups all the time,and if you think people are going to be okay then you're wrong,i've seen multipe memes on the internet calling out the hypcrisy of the fandom and i've also seen youtube comments who are calling it out too and calling bs on that,just because you're baised doesn't mean all the other fans are dear.

That kind of motivation compared to Freeza's and Gohan's is puny. He barely even said anything relating to "I dont want to lose again" all that he wants to maintain his job by protecting the animals, yeah thats easy to say "I've seen it in other forums etc etc" I dont care about those other forums, I'm talking about the people here, funny because I've seen a lot from 17 that some people didnt even want to watch his 2nd part episode because of the crap they pulled with him, I'm not the one being bias here dear.

[LowRyder2005]

Tell you what, not only does you hyperbole make very little sense, but comparing War and Peace to Dragon Ball is stupid.

His example looks quite on point, to me. "Consistency" means following an appealing, palatable or simply logically acceptable progression. If you take a literary masterpiece, dissect it and then reassemble it without any semblance of its former logical progression, the former masterpiece will lose all of its literary value.

Honestly, I believe you might just be confusing "consistency" with "inability to create something new or interesting", or treating the two as mutually exclusive concepts.

No, consistency means following a set of rules or principles. The greatest artists have had their work make an impact by spinning this logic on it's head and either not follow the rules of their medium or changing them to fit their vision. That doesn't mean putting pages in random order, that means changing ideas, introducing new ones or sometimes even dropping everything and just doing what feels right.

Again, I don't how if I can word it better than I did, but his example was perfectly fine because "consistence" is also a synonym of "coherence". If you drastically alter the logical progression of a series of given events, you lose any semblance of coherence (alas, rendering something "inconsistent"); now, unless you're a dadaist or someone with similar principles, I suppose, this usually doesn't work in favor of the writer when trying to build a story. You'd probably hear about well-received novels written by monkeys with typewriters, wouldn't you?

But anyway, without going too in-depth with the semanthics, I believe you're arguing against yourself here: one can also be "consistent" in "improving" or "revolutionizing" something. Hence, the idea that "consistency" is necessarily something equivalent to stagnation, aversion to change, or anything inherently bad is quite simply a gross extremization.

I'd also argue that it's far too noble a defense for Super's narrative, which is most likely the product of simple carelessness and negligence on its writing team's part, but let's just leave it at that.