"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

I'd like to point out "You can enjoy bullshit". I am very excited of what is happening with Gohan, but it still may be total bullshit. Just like you can enjoy something that is bad, you can enjoy something that is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand the ramifications, I understand why what Gohan may be doing is bullshit, but I can enjoy it. Mainly cause I've been waiting so long for it. And while his potential I doubt would fix the possible problem, at least his potential has been built up and isn't like those other two where it's "Oh hey we suddenly have big potential from outta nowhere. Where was this potential this whole time? Fuck if I know."

Also for consistency, refer to Doctor's post in my signature.

[Lapislettuce]

Already explained his motivation in my previous comment and he already said he's been training and Toriyama already already said he has an enormous potential since you guys like using the word "potential" to explain Gohan's huge power ups all the time,and if you think people are going to be okay then you're wrong,i've seen multipe memes on the internet calling out the hypcrisy of the fandom and i've also seen youtube comments who are calling it out too and calling bs on that,just because you're baised doesn't mean all the other fans are dear.

That kind of motivation compared to Freeza's and Gohan's is puny. He barely even said anything relating to "I dont want to lose again" all that he wants to maintain his job by protecting the animals, yeah thats easy to say "I've seen it in other forums etc etc" I dont care about those other forums, I'm talking about the people here, funny because I've seen a lot from 17 that some people didnt even want to watch his 2nd part episode because of the crap they pulled with him, I'm not the one being bias here dear.

That's actually false information considering the second episode increased than the previous one but this is irrelevant,some people are actually calling it out the ones who aren't are just as biased as you are lol so what's your point ? the larger public i see is calling out the hypocrisy,i'm not not gonna argue with you any longer you already made up your mind that training in the mountain for 2 hours makes more sense than training for 13 years a treaining that hasn't even been mentioned yet so you already lost all credibility in the first place,just be honest and say i'm a gohan fan and i don't care what kind of asspull they're gonna pull as long as he's one of the strongest,i would respect you much more for your honesty at least.

[TheMikado]

I'd like to point out "You can enjoy bullshit". I am very excited of what is happening with Gohan, but it still may be total bullshit. Just like you can enjoy something that is bad, you can enjoy something that is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand the ramifications, I understand why what Gohan may be doing is bullshit, but I can enjoy it. Mainly cause I've been waiting so long for it. And while his potential I doubt would fix the possible problem, at least his potential has been built up and isn't like those other two where it's "Oh hey we suddenly have big potential from outta nowhere. Where was this potential this whole time? Fuck if I know."

Also for consistency, refer to Doctor's post in my signature.

Thanks that's all that needs to be said. I like B$. It's why I like 80s movies and 90's action flicks. They are total B$ but entertaining. I'd never try to argue that Ghostbusters or Gremlins was played through with the up most care and consistency even between movies. Your enjoyment just needs to exceed the B$, that's about it.

[Lapislettuce]

I'd like to point out "You can enjoy bullshit". I am very excited of what is happening with Gohan, but it still may be total bullshit. Just like you can enjoy something that is bad, you can enjoy something that is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand the ramifications, I understand why what Gohan may be doing is bullshit, but I can enjoy it. Mainly cause I've been waiting so long for it. And while his potential I doubt would fix the possible problem, at least his potential has been built up and isn't like those other two where it's "Oh hey we suddenly have big potential from outta nowhere. Where was this potential this whole time? Fuck if I know."

Also for consistency, refer to Doctor's post in my signature.

How many times his "potential" will be unlocked ? how many potential does this dude have ? and how can you say "those two" as if they were the same beings with the same potential ? you literally make no sense,17's potential has already been mentioned in GT and since Toriyama said it recently then it means it's something they got from him.

[SansrivaaL]

That's actually false information considering the second episode increased than the previous one but this is irrelevant,some people are actually calling it out the ones who aren't are just as biased as you are lol so what's your point ? the larger public i see is calling out the hypocrisy,i'm not not gonna argue with you any longer you already made up your mind that training in the mountain for 2 hours makes more sense than training for 13 years a treaining that hasn't even been mentioned yet so you already lost all credibility in the first place,just be honest and say i'm a gohan fan and i don't care what kind of asspull they're gonna pull as long as he's one of the strongest,i would respect you much more for your honesty at least.

Why are you so ticked off because of your bias towards 17 that nothing negative should be said about him? I even said I didnt like the idea of Gohan surpassing Goku and complaining that the consistency of the story is fucked up so I dont know where you're getting the "I'm so bias I want Gohan's meat"
Read and try to understand this while not being bias towards 17.
17 trained for what? he was a go with the flow guy that doesnt even mind the destruction of the earth despite having a family, do you really think 17 would prioritize training and his selfish views on being strong instead of his families well being?
While Gohan just re unlocked his Ultimate form thats already above SSJ3. So like I've been saying, the reason why Gohan's is much easier to swallow is because he didnt leap so much, 17 was gone for a decade with no interaction with anyone and he instantly pops out leaping through 3 SSJ levels out of nowhere.
Since you like using AT's statement, Gohan has this potential in him way back in the start of Z when he was born, the hype continued throught the arcs, 17's was where? when was it acknowledged in the show itself other than AT's statement in an interview? thats all he's got, an out of nowhere last ditch call that wasnt even called in the series even now. All that "hey I've been training. In the woods. Fighting poachers."
Also try to calm down while having a conversation with someone, just because you dont like what I see doesnt mean you should taunt me by saying "just admit that youre a Gohan bias fan, I'll respect you more" I dont need your respect.

[Lapislettuce]

That's actually false information considering the second episode increased than the previous one but this is irrelevant,some people are actually calling it out the ones who aren't are just as biased as you are lol so what's your point ? the larger public i see is calling out the hypocrisy,i'm not not gonna argue with you any longer you already made up your mind that training in the mountain for 2 hours makes more sense than training for 13 years a treaining that hasn't even been mentioned yet so you already lost all credibility in the first place,just be honest and say i'm a gohan fan and i don't care what kind of asspull they're gonna pull as long as he's one of the strongest,i would respect you much more for your honesty at least.

Why are you so ticked off because of your bias towards 17 that nothing negative should be said about him? I even said I didnt like the idea of Gohan surpassing Goku and complaining that the consistency of the story is fucked up so I dont know where you're getting the "I'm so bias I want Gohan's meat"
Read and try to understand this while not being bias towards 17.
17 trained for what? he was a go with the flow guy that doesnt even mind the destruction of the earth despite having a family, do you really think 17 would prioritize training and his selfish views on being strong instead of his families well being?
While Gohan just re unlocked his Ultimate form thats already above SSJ3. So like I've been saying, the reason why Gohan's is much easier to swallow is because he didnt leap so much, 17 was gone for a decade with no interaction with anyone and he instantly pops out leaping through 3 SSJ levels out of nowhere.
Since you like using AT's statement, Gohan has this potential in him way back in the start of Z when he was born, the hype continued throught the arcs, 17's was where? when was it acknowledged in the show itself other than AT's statement in an interview? thats all he's got, an out of nowhere last ditch call that wasnt even called in the series even now. All that "hey I've been training. In the woods. Fighting poachers."
Also try to calm down while having a conversation with someone, just because you dont like what I see doesnt mean you should taunt me by saying "just admit that youre a Gohan bias fan, I'll respect you more" I dont need your respect.

I'm neither biased nor "attacking" as you're making it seem,i'm having a proper conversation with people who are finding excuses defending their favorite character's power boost while two weeks ago they were complaining about a character's power boost and at least the later had many years to improve,17 was already stronger than a super saiyan while he was UNTRAINED,it's not that hard to swallow unless you want it to be,Gohan's "Potential" has been unlocked so many times now that i can't even count,it's basically what they always pull with him,don't compare him to 17's "backstory" as Gohan was supposed to be the lead of dbz at first of course they would have more backstory to his "potential" that doesn't take anything away from 17's potential that Toriyama said it was enormous and that you obviously don't or can't acknowledge due to you being biased,my issue with you is how you think Gohan traning for 2 hours makes more sense than 17 who has never trained a day in his life a decade ago and was waay abover a super saiyan.

[Beyond]

Gohan's power up is likely going to be BS, but if they at least make sure Piccolo's method is more about the mind than the body, it'll mitigate the damage somewhat. Gohan's power being tied with his mental state, and Gohan going through a sort of psychological journey is the only way they can pull this off without it being complete BS. I mean it would still be suspect ,but it would at least make things interesting. It would also explain why Piccolo was the best person for the job. Goku and Whis wouldn't be able to do this for Gohan. Goku doesn't understand Gohan's feeling enough and Whis is kind of an asshole who has no bound with Gohan. Although Super isn't the type of show to do something like that. I didn't expect anything like 88 either though.

[TheMathemagician]

Gohan's power up is likely going to be BS, but if they at least make sure Piccolo's method is more about the mind than the body, it'll mitigate the damage somewhat. Gohan's power being tied with his mental state, and Gohan going through a sort of psychological journey is the only way they can pull this off without it being complete BS. I mean it would still be suspect ,but it would at least make things interesting. It would also explain why Piccolo was the best person for the job. Goku and Whis wouldn't be able to do this for Gohan. Goku doesn't understand Gohan's feeling enough and Whis is kind of an asshole who has no bound with Gohan. Although Super isn't the type of show to do something like that. I didn't expect anything like 88 either though.

I don't think I'll be able to mitigate it even with that since it'll be BS regardless of what happens if Gohan does reach or surpass Goku's level. It would make it interesting I agree with you there.

[dbgtFO]

I'm neither biased nor "attacking"

Oh, really?
Then by all means provide the source for this statement:

that doesn't take anything away from 17's potential that Toriyama said it was enormous

Toriyama saying #17's potential was "enormous", is certainly something I want confirmed!

[dbzfan7]

I'd like to point out "You can enjoy bullshit". I am very excited of what is happening with Gohan, but it still may be total bullshit. Just like you can enjoy something that is bad, you can enjoy something that is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand the ramifications, I understand why what Gohan may be doing is bullshit, but I can enjoy it. Mainly cause I've been waiting so long for it. And while his potential I doubt would fix the possible problem, at least his potential has been built up and isn't like those other two where it's "Oh hey we suddenly have big potential from outta nowhere. Where was this potential this whole time? Fuck if I know."

Also for consistency, refer to Doctor's post in my signature.

How many times his "potential" will be unlocked ? how many potential does this dude have ? and how can you say "those two" as if they were the same beings with the same potential ? you literally make no sense,17's potential has already been mentioned in GT and since Toriyama said it recently then it means it's something they got from him.

You keep getting upset with people being biased...and yet you're probably the most vocal one as if no one else is admitting to their own. Everyone has a bias. You clearly are coming off as extremely upset with people and their opinions, more so than anyone else. As well as trying to throw away their opinion as bias nonsense at any turn to try and justify your own view point.

Yes 17 counts as it was never a thing just like Freeza, and then suddenly is. Both times it's completely random and hated on. Back during GT's run, and now. If Gohan randomly gets stronger in such a short time without a good reason, it is bullshit. But at least he's had his potential slowly build up over the course of the entire series. He didn't just suddenly go "Oh hey I have this potential now". Also the series itself threw away his first potential release literally in the same arc as Gohan still had rage boosts. So really that complaint has to be lodged at the series itself. Heck even Goku makes a comment on how it's been before and how it sounds like the same thing. Sure 17 has had more time and makes more sense in that regard, except for he shares Freeza's flaw of "Potential is suddenly a thing, accept it."

[Draconic]

His example looks quite on point, to me. "Consistency" means following an appealing, palatable or simply logically acceptable progression. If you take a literary masterpiece, dissect it and then reassemble it without any semblance of its former logical progression, the former masterpiece will lose all of its literary value.

Honestly, I believe you might just be confusing "consistency" with "inability to create something new or interesting", or treating the two as mutually exclusive concepts.

No, consistency means following a set of rules or principles. The greatest artists have had their work make an impact by spinning this logic on it's head and either not follow the rules of their medium or changing them to fit their vision. That doesn't mean putting pages in random order, that means changing ideas, introducing new ones or sometimes even dropping everything and just doing what feels right.

Again, I don't how if I can word it better than I did, but his example was perfectly fine because "consistence" is also a synonym of "coherence". If you drastically alter the logical progression of a series of given events, you lose any semblance of coherence (alas, rendering something "inconsistent"); now, unless you're a dadaist or someone with similar principles, I suppose, this usually doesn't work in favor of the writer when trying to build a story. You'd probably hear about well-received novels written by monkeys with typewriters, wouldn't you?

But anyway, without going too in-depth with the semanthics, I believe you're arguing against yourself here: one can also be "consistent" in "improving" or "revolutionizing" something. Hence, the idea that "consistency" is necessarily something equivalent to stagnation, aversion to change, or anything inherently bad is quite simply a gross extremization.

I'd also argue that it's far too noble a defense for Super's narrative, which is most likely the product of simple carelessness and negligence on its writing team's part, but let's just leave it at that.

And his example of coherence being the same as sequencing is wrong. You can be coherent even if things are out of order, if that is the intent. The whole "local coherence" thing he tried to catch me with, even though he fails to understand it's exactly what I'm saying. But I never advocated that anything should be enjoyed or critiqued outside of said "local coherence". He created a straw man. Narrative consistency, especially in the way it's being used in the context of this thread prior to his unrelated "argument", was following the rules of what came before. I said following those rules turned out like shit and it's good they dropped them.

I am not arguing that consistency or following rules is bad, but taking my WHOLE post into account that should be pretty clear. I am saying that if you're actually going to try and do something new, you shouldn't be tied to the prior works, especially when you're doing Dragon Ball, a series that goes for the superficial aspects of storytelling. If the result of breaking the "narrative consistency" is fun and the intent of it was to be fun, why should it matter? That's the gist of what I said in my original post.

Mikado tried to turn this into a whole different conversation, using a non-argument and didn't actually reply to anything of substance I wrote in my post.

Also, in my post to you I wasn't defending Super. I was debating the unrelated argument you two created. I am not giving Super credit that it's trying to break all this rules and emerge a masterpiece. It's a stupid show for stupid kids, going for the most basic form of fun. I understand it and I like it for what it is. If people can't actually criticize it for what it is, but for what they wish it would be, that's their problem. It's stupid fun akin to fart jokes, sometimes it lands, sometimes it doesn't. Criticizing it for not being more is fair, but it's not trying to be more and it never will, so critique should start focusing more on how to become a better stupid show, instead of trying to change it's core idea.

Last of my posts on the subject, since it's off topic, but we can keep it up via PM if you really want to reply.

[SansrivaaL]

I'm neither biased nor "attacking" as you're making it seem,i'm having a proper conversation with people who are finding excuses defending their favorite character's power boost while two weeks ago they were complaining about a character's power boost and at least the later had many years to improve,17 was already stronger than a super saiyan while he was UNTRAINED,it's not that hard to swallow unless you want it to be,Gohan's "Potential" has been unlocked so many times now that i can't even count,it's basically what they always pull with him,don't compare him to 17's "backstory" as Gohan was supposed to be the lead of dbz at first of course they would have more backstory to his "potential" that doesn't take anything away from 17's potential that Toriyama said it was enormous and that you obviously don't or can't acknowledge due to you being biased,my issue with you is how you think Gohan traning for 2 hours makes more sense than 17 who has never trained a day in his life a decade ago and was waay abover a super saiyan.

From the looks of it you were trying to prove a point by calling me a bias fan and that I should admit it so that you'll respect me.
I am a fan of Gohan but I still call BS when I see one, I never said Gohan's made sense, but its easier to swallow because he didnt leap through a lot of levels, since Gohan is already above SSJ3 logically Goku should go the next level SSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3-SSJB, with 17 my problem was he was below ascended SSJ, so thats ASSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3 he leaped through all that just by training in the woods with no partner or anyone to guide him (Its still better to have a master or to have someone to train with to call you out on what you lack) that is my problem, if we had 17 from the get go fighting with the cast and training with them then I wouldnt have a problem with his boost, but they pushed it way too far to the point of even having 17 hold back against SSJB Goku, that is outright BS. About Gohan we dont even know how their fight will go as of yet, all is that its normal for Goku to go SSJB because Ultimate Gohan had always been above SSJ3.

[Lapislettuce]

I'd like to point out "You can enjoy bullshit". I am very excited of what is happening with Gohan, but it still may be total bullshit. Just like you can enjoy something that is bad, you can enjoy something that is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand the ramifications, I understand why what Gohan may be doing is bullshit, but I can enjoy it. Mainly cause I've been waiting so long for it. And while his potential I doubt would fix the possible problem, at least his potential has been built up and isn't like those other two where it's "Oh hey we suddenly have big potential from outta nowhere. Where was this potential this whole time? Fuck if I know."

Also for consistency, refer to Doctor's post in my signature.

How many times his "potential" will be unlocked ? how many potential does this dude have ? and how can you say "those two" as if they were the same beings with the same potential ? you literally make no sense,17's potential has already been mentioned in GT and since Toriyama said it recently then it means it's something they got from him.

You keep getting upset with people being biased...and yet you're probably the most vocal one as if no one else is admitting to their own. Everyone has a bias.

Yes 17 counts as it was never a thing just like Freeza, and then suddenly is. Both times it's completely random and hated on. Back during GT's run, and now. If Gohan randomly gets stronger in such a short time without a good reason, it is bullshit. But at least he's had his potential slowly build up over the course of the entire series. He didn't just suddenly go "Oh hey I have this potential now". Also the series itself threw away his first potential release literally in the same arc as Gohan still had rage boosts. So really that complaint has to be lodged at the series itself. Heck even Goku makes a comment on how it's been before and how it sounds like the same thing.

First a potential is supposed to be worked on and not just randomly being unleached out of no where thanks to a magical spell,second how many times does this "Potential" will be unlocked ? as far as i'm concerned it was unlocked in buu saga and Gohan couldn't beat Buu/gotenks,that was his limit,it MAKES 0 sense for him to be even closer to Goku's level,and either 17's potential is NOT out of no where Toriyama said it was enormous you know the creator of the whole series ? people want to argue with Toriyama too about his characters ? go ahead. (sorry for Gohan fans who don't deserve this "rant" but i can't stand double standards nor hypocrisy)

[Lapislettuce]

I'm neither biased nor "attacking"

Oh, really?
Then by all means provide the source for this statement:

that doesn't take anything away from 17's potential that Toriyama said it was enormous

Toriyama saying #17's potential was "enormous", is certainly something I want confirmed!

The interview was shared here multipe times i'm not the kind of person to put words on Toriyama's mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJJhRJEK6aU

[Ki Breaker]

Lapislettuce, you are basically repeating Merged Zamasu's history here..
Your unhealthy obsession towards 17 is blinding you so much you can't maintain a proper conversation without attacking the next guy..
You have made your point of 17 making sense to you, repeatedly writing walls of text isn't going to make it anything more than your opinion and your alone which others don't agree with..

Consider these things the next time you try to convince people of your points, if not, sooner or later this will go to mods notice

[incarnati0n]

I'm neither biased nor "attacking"

Oh, really?
Then by all means provide the source for this statement:

that doesn't take anything away from 17's potential that Toriyama said it was enormous

Toriyama saying #17's potential was "enormous", is certainly something I want confirmed!

The interview was shared here multipe times i'm not the kind of person to put words on Toriyama's mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJJhRJEK6aU

The only interview we've had from toriyama where he talks about 17 he only said that he had the potential to get stronger. That enormous potential stuff was just a producer and not from toriyamas mouth if I'm not mistaken.

[Lapislettuce]

Oh, really?
Then by all means provide the source for this statement:
Toriyama saying #17's potential was "enormous", is certainly something I want confirmed!

The interview was shared here multipe times i'm not the kind of person to put words on Toriyama's mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJJhRJEK6aU

The only interview we've had from toriyama where he talks about 17 he only said that he had the potential to get stronger. That enormous potential stuff was just a producer and not from toriyamas mouth if I'm not mistaken.

Quoting "Toriyama gave us the permisson to do so saying he has an enormous potencial" the producer was talking about showcasing 17's strength that wasn't explored in Z.

[Lapislettuce]

Lapislettuce, you are basically repeating Merged Zamasu's history here..
Your unhealthy obsession towards 17 is blinding you so much you can't maintain a proper conversation without attacking the next guy..
You have made your point of 17 making sense to you, repeatedly writing walls of text isn't going to make it anything more than your opinion and your alone which others don't agree with..

Consider these things the next time you try to convince people of your points, if not, sooner or later this will go to mods notice

You all always say people are "attacking" when you just can't admit they're right so you play the victim card,i've never once called anybody names nor attacked anyone just stating basic fasts and calling out the hypocrisy,

[Khin]

Toriyama saying #17's potential was "enormous", is certainly something I want confirmed!

It’s from an interview with producer Hiroyuki Sakurada from Animedia a month ago.

Although Toriyama didn’t said it himself in the interview, Sakurada said that Toriyama is giving his approval to display No. 17’s strength, saying that he has “great potential”, whatever that means.

As a fan, I'm looking forward to Goku and #17's first battle.
#17 didn't have many fights in the original story nor in the anime up until now. Apparently, Akira Toriyama didn't have the opportunity to display his strength but he is also giving his approval, saying #17 has great potential.

[dbzfan7]

How many times his "potential" will be unlocked ? how many potential does this dude have ? and how can you say "those two" as if they were the same beings with the same potential ? you literally make no sense,17's potential has already been mentioned in GT and since Toriyama said it recently then it means it's something they got from him.

You keep getting upset with people being biased...and yet you're probably the most vocal one as if no one else is admitting to their own. Everyone has a bias.

Yes 17 counts as it was never a thing just like Freeza, and then suddenly is. Both times it's completely random and hated on. Back during GT's run, and now. If Gohan randomly gets stronger in such a short time without a good reason, it is bullshit. But at least he's had his potential slowly build up over the course of the entire series. He didn't just suddenly go "Oh hey I have this potential now". Also the series itself threw away his first potential release literally in the same arc as Gohan still had rage boosts. So really that complaint has to be lodged at the series itself. Heck even Goku makes a comment on how it's been before and how it sounds like the same thing.

First a potential is supposed to be worked on and not just randomly being unleached out of no where thanks to a magical spell,second how many times does this "Potential" will be unlocked ? as far as i'm concerned it was unlocked in buu saga and Gohan couldn't beat Buu/gotenks,that was his limit,it MAKES 0 sense for him to be even closer to Goku's level,and either 17's potential is NOT out of no where Toriyama said it was enormous you know the creator of the whole series ? people want to argue with Toriyama too about his characters ? go ahead. (sorry for Gohan fans who don't deserve this "rant" but i can't stand double standards nor hypocrisy)

Gohan has had his potential built up as a thing since DAY 1. Secondly he didn't start off super strong and in the upper tier. He still would have died to the likes of Raditz or Nappa early on even. His potential slowly grew and evolved over time which we could see. He didn't just suddenly start of in the highest tier just cause. You can call the magic spell thing out of nowhere if you want, but you'd have to include Zenkai's, The Holy Water, The God transformation, and a butt load of other stuff on that list if you want to go down that path.

Secondly the God level is far beyond normal potential. Ask Goku. He said he NEVER could have gotten this strong on his own. He said it was a realm he never could have hoped to reach. So it's something far surpassing mortal potential. Also Gohan since day 1 has been stated to have more potential than Goku. Day 1. So him being able to one day surpass Goku by taking the same path makes sense, since it's literally always been a thing. Of course in such a short time I do have a problem with.

You seem to be thinking because Toriyama said something, it's ok. Toriyama said this about Freeza, and I never accepted that. I thought it was dumb. Toriyama is not infallible. Just because he says something, doesn't make it suddenly not stupid. I very much appreciate 17 having a long training period. I don't appreciate there is no background on said period, and he once again falls into the trap of suddenly having massive potential out of nowhere for the sake of it. He was not built up at all previously. Nowhere in the series beforehand did he have any sort of mention of being this special. If he did, I'd be more accepting. Cell was the one portrayed as the pinnacle and far more special than 17.

There isn't a double standard or hypocrisy, because I still AM calling bullshit on Gohan if he does something like that. You seem to be using that to try and defend 17 like a fanboy, when people here talking about Gohan, ALREADY know it's bullshit for Gohan. They are fully aware. However unlike the others, Gohan has been built up since day 1. Does that fix the bullshit with Gohan? No. However he at least isn't randomly thrown in as a special snowflake out of nowhere, just cause. That is what people are upset about. No build up for guys like Freeza or 17. They just suddenly are special snowflakes, just cause. The reasoning behind it is so shallow, I can literally apply it to everyone who doesn't train if I feel like it. It's trying to become some get out of jail free card like "Lol magic don't have to explain" or "Lol techno babble no explanation needed." That is what pisses people off.

For either Freeza or 17 I could do a shit ton better job of getting them to this level, without making it such a stupid out of nowhere way. For Freeza, have Champa and Vados be the one's who use him as a secret pawn to get stronger, to further their goals for the Super Dragon Balls, thus setting up the next arc and the current one. For 17 just have him go on a space intergalactic trip that ends up giving him some form of enhancement to his infinite energy system or something like that. Or have some space scientist unlock his Cyborg parts for more power. Something like that to give some better reasoning. No one has a problem with the concept of 17 or Freeza getting stronger. They just hate how it's handled.