Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

So basically throw out everything we've been told about power levels even in super and just accept the characters are as strong as they need to be for the plot.

[Birusu16]

So basically throw out everything we've been told about power levels even in super and just accept the characters are as strong as they need to be for the plot.

Essentially, yes. It's clear the writers don't care about power levels in this series. The only thing that's clear is that Vados, Whis, Beerus, and Champa operate on a level far above everyone else. That's about it.

[DragonHermit]

Power levels never made that much sense to begin with (it was just a hype tool, which worked).

Master Roshi with a power level of no more than 300, destroyed the entire moon. If the average person is at 5, there is no way that can ever happen.

[Bullza]

I don't think it's as complicated as people are making it out to be.

Hit is suppressed. Hit's stronger than Base Goku. SSJB Vegeta was probably much more powerful than Hit and could have severely hurt him had he been able to land a blow but because of Hit's abilities was not able to.

And attacking pressure points seems to work regardless of how high a characters power level is.

[Chiki]

Not to mention he went the extra mile and said they wouldn't even come close to Beerus power,

Um, I don't remember him saying this. Please give me a quote/source. I do remember him saying he had no plans for them to surpass Beerus. That's it.

Yes it is. Surpassing someone through the use of a technique is still surpassing them.

No it's not. Piccolo charging Makankosappo surpassed Raditz's power level. That doesn't mean that Piccolo overall is stronger than Raditz, lol.

Also, Saiyan Saga Goku said Vegeta was much stronger than him after their fight, even though Goku surpassed Vegeta's power level for short amounts of time with the Kaioken.

But Base Cabba is equal to Base Vegeta as per Vegeta's words. Of course we'll assume that Base Goku is equal to Base Vegeta as well. So if Goku can do it then why can't Cabba? IF he could hit him in the first place.

We don't know that Hit in these two fights is more durable than SSJ Vegeta. We know he's suppressed.

Can we say for sure that if SSJB Vegeta had managed to punch him square in the face that Hit wouldn't have been knocked out cold?

And attacking pressure points seems to work regardless of how high a characters power level is.

It didn't work in Hokuto no Ken, why should it work in DB where we have ki shields?

Hit is definitely more durable than SSJ Vegeta.

There are things called "ki shields" which protect your body and amplify your punches and kicks. We know this, because people's clothes don't often get destroyed when they block ki blasts, and their bodies don't get destroyed by ki blasts either, even though bones can obviously not take attacks millions of times stronger than nuclear bombs. This is why we can't imagine Master Roshi's MAX Kamehameha even touching SSB Vegeta's clothes even though it can destroy the Moon. I'm pretty sure that Vegeta's clothes are not Moon-level in terms of durability. We have direct evidence of this when we see Goku using a ki shield on his finger to block Trunks's sword with 1 finger. Therefore ki shields exist.

If Hit can own SSB Vegeta by attacking his pressure points, it means he has enough power to penetrate SSB Vegeta's ki shield. So Hit is god level. I agree with you SSB Vegeta is probably stronger than suppressed Hit overall, the power difference cannot be that great because Hit can penetrate Vegeta's ki shield. On the other hand... SS Cabba could not break SS Vegeta's ki shield with a punch.

If Hit can break SSB Vegeta's ki shield but SS Cabba can't, how on earth can Base Cabba do any sort of damage to Hit? Hit's ki is just too much.

Not true SSJ Goku was just as strong as SSJG back in the BOG arc and yet his ki could be felt from the others.Everyone in this tournament is God tier.

I've already explained that I think Base Goku w/ SSG power's ki is mixed, regular + godly ki from SSG power. The regular bit can be felt.

People really need to throw that 6/10/15 scale out the window, especially since Goku's going to stack KK (a technique that at the very least doubles your fighting power) on top of SSJB and still be weaker than Beerus. You're making it that much harder on yourselves by trying to fit everything into that scale.

Um, no, you can't throw Toriyama's statements out the window. They're called "word of God" for a reason. They were also reiterated in Super. End of story.

[Birusu16]

No it's not. Piccolo charging Makankosappo surpassed Raditz's power level. That doesn't mean that Piccolo overall is stronger than Raditz, lol.

Also, Saiyan Saga Goku said Vegeta was much stronger than him after their fight, even though Goku surpassed Vegeta's power level for short amounts of time with the Kaioken.

Yes it is. Surpassing someone temporarily is still surpassing them.

Um, no, you can't throw Toriyama's statements out the window. They're called "word of God" for a reason. They were also reiterated in Super. End of story.

No they weren't. That 6/10/15 scale was never uttered again after that one interview, which came right after BoGs ended and far before Super was even thought of. If nothing even remotely aligns with that scale in Super (and absolutely nothing does) then I certainly can doubt the legitimacy of it at this point.

[Bullza]

It didn't work in Hokuto no Ken, why should it work in DB where we have ki shields?

Well Beerus took Piccolo down with chopsticks by hitting his pressure points. So the idea of it is a thing.

Hit is definitely more durable than SSJ Vegeta.

He will be, when he powers up sure he will but there's nothing to say this suppressed version of Hit is as durable as the powered up SSJ Vegeta. SSJB Vegeta never hit him to know that for sure.

If Hit can break SSB Vegeta's ki shield but SS Cabba can't, how on earth can Base Cabba do any sort of damage to Hit? Hit's ki is just too much.

Then why can base Goku do it? He's equal to Vegeta who is equal to Cabba. You can't say that it's because this is with Goku's God Ki turned on because there was nothing that said or suggested that at all.

The only clear implication is that the three of them are about the same.

[Chiki]

No it's not. Piccolo charging Makankosappo surpassed Raditz's power level. That doesn't mean that Piccolo overall is stronger than Raditz, lol.

Also, Saiyan Saga Goku said Vegeta was much stronger than him after their fight, even though Goku surpassed Vegeta's power level for short amounts of time with the Kaioken.

Yes it is. Surpassing someone temporarily is still surpassing them.

Um, no, you can't throw Toriyama's statements out the window. They're called "word of God" for a reason. They were also reiterated in Super. End of story.

No they weren't. That 6/10/15 scale was never uttered again after that one interview, which came right after BoGs ended and far before Super was even thought of. If nothing even remotely aligns with that scale in Super (and absolutely nothing does) then I certainly can doubt the legitimacy of it at this point.

I think you don't know the difference between surpassing someone momentarily and surpassing someone overall. Fortunately, Toriyama does and it's obvious he meant the latter.

Why does he have to repeat it? Most people don't need him to repeat that statement because we know it's true. Sorry if you're paranoid, but it's fact.

He will be, when he powers up sure he will but there's nothing to say this suppressed version of Hit is as durable as the powered up SSJ Vegeta. SSJB Vegeta never hit him to know that for sure.

Why not? If he can break SSB Vegeta's ki shield why is he not as durable as SS Vegeta?

Then why can base Goku do it? He's equal to Vegeta who is equal to Cabba. You can't say that it's because this is with Goku's God Ki turned on because there was nothing that said or suggested that at all.

The only clear implication is that the three of them are about the same.

Base Goku can do it because, as you said, suppressed Hit is weaker than SSB Vegeta, and according to the two bases theory, the gap btw. Base w/ godly ki and SSB is relatively small (x1.5 or less vs. x50 pre-SSG). So if say, suppressed Hit is a 5 and Base Goku is a 4, it would work out.

I know it's inconsistent, but the only logical explanation is that Goku's god ki was turned on for that fight.

[LightBing]

I assume these bunch of new pages were people discussing the episode, without knowing Japanese. That's not really productive...

Hit appears to be weaker than the Super Saiyans Blue. He's able to damage them decently due to his "pressure points" attacks and his time-skip technique.
Altought I wouldn't say much weaker. Next episode should be clearer, when fighting seriously against a SSJB who knows his technique.

By the way, Goku new technique hype! When was the last time he had one? It must incorporate the Kaioken based on the spoilers.

[Bullza]

Why not? If he can break SSB Vegeta's ki shield why is he not as durable as SS Vegeta?

Well who said there is a Ki shield. A pair of wooden chopsticks broke Piccolo's Ki shield didn't it? A "common ray gun" broke SSJB Goku's Ki shield. Maybe striking at pressure points bypasses all that as that is the whole purpose behind striking pressure points anyway.

Sometimes things need to be looked at face value more than over thinking everything.

Base w/ godly ki and SSB is relatively small (x1.5 or less vs. x50 pre-SSG). So if say, suppressed Hit is a 5 and Base Goku is a 4, it would work out.

But Base Goku with and without God Ki isn't a thing. This episode practically confirmed it when he chooses to fight him in base and nobody says anything about it and Goku doesn't do anything different from before.

That was the best chance of it ever being confirmed and it wasn't. There is no two base theory anymore.

Hit was suppressed, his time skip abilities and his pressure point attacks allowed him to overcome someone who was much more powerful than him. Goku however knew exactly what he was doing and so he fared better because he got around the time skip and thus the pressure point attacks as well.

[ShinTenshin]

So Base Goku has exactly the same stance in the episode 38 than during FNF versus Frieza final form.
Add the fact Hit is officially the Strongest of Universe 6, yeah Goku has really 2 base mode !
So the SS is just for money nothing more.
Goku Beyond God seems to be far stronger than his SS counterpart.

[Bullza]

Come on now, the stance ain't gonna have nothing to do with anything. That's way too optimistic.

Hit may be the strongest (in just the team) but he's suppressed here. How much we don't know but apparently suppressed enough that Goku can make him bleed.

There's nothing that suggests two bases. That idea is completely dead now.

[ZombieVito]

Come on now, the stance ain't gonna have nothing to do with anything. That's way too optimistic.

Hit may be the strongest (in just the team) but he's suppressed here. How much we don't know but apparently suppressed enough that Goku can make him bleed.

There's nothing that suggests two bases. That idea is completely dead now.

Agreed. Now the question is how strong his base is.

[ShinTenshin]

Goku and Vegeta need SS to destroy Frost, hit literally explode frost.
So if base Goku can affect hit and resist several hits, it's official, Goku base mode was extremely restrained against Frost.

Goku say he want to hide his TRUE POWER.
So we have 2 base mode, a restrained Goku against Botamo + Frost and a full Base mode against hit !
If Goku in base transform directly in SSBLUE to fight hit in the next episode, we'll have a confirmation.

[buutenks]

Or hit was suppressed vs base goku since he didnt took him seriously due to not transforming.

Or ye 2 base theories.Or its more about technique rather than PL.

Many possibilities.

[SansrivaaL]

True, could either be Goku was restraining himself way too much against Frost and only transformed to bait Frost into transforming or Hit restraining himself due to Goku not transforming.

[namekiansaiyan]

There is not 2 bases. Hit beat Vegeta easily because of pressure points and Hit is nowhere near his full power.

[RandomGuy96]

Come on now, the stance ain't gonna have nothing to do with anything. That's way too optimistic.

Hit may be the strongest (in just the team) but he's suppressed here. How much we don't know but apparently suppressed enough that Goku can make him bleed.

There's nothing that suggests two bases. That idea is completely dead now.

Agreed. Now the question is how strong his base is.

I'm still sticking to what I said earlier on this. Mr. Buu is heavily implied to be relevant in the tournament (if he made it), Piccolo was confirmed to be kinda-sorta relevant with his SBC, and the Uub epilogue where base Goku is still a good bit a weaker than a Pure Buu level fighter, still exists. That's after a good amount of training too, over five years in fact. So base Goku/Vegeta now would be... high SS2-tier, I guess, and SS would be x50 stronger than that, based on Vegeta's fight with Cabba. Cabba, true form Freeza, and assault form Frost would be around that same strength, while 1st form Frost and Piccolo would be a step below. But yeah, all generally within SS2-tier IMO. Frost's true form is obviously way stronger than any of these characters, but there's no way to tell exactly how much stronger. At the very least, the fact that Piccolo's SBC (~x3-4 his normal strength) > an exhausted Frost would imply that's he's actually a lot closer to the base tier than he is to Goku's SS.

I definitely think Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with any of the above, besides perhaps true form Frost. But again he can be anywhere as long as he's stronger than Goku's base and way weaker than his SS.

[Pannaliciour]

Guldo could stop time, but wasn't the strongest in his team.

On the other hand, it seems Hit can skip time AND most important, looking by the expression on Beerus face, can give even Beerus trouble in a fight.

[buutenks]

Well after watching goku vs hit, i can safely say hit didnt took goku very seriously and did not expect goku to counter attack.

In next ep hit is serious, and it seems he is at ssj blue level.