Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

It depends. If you subscribe to the idea that a berserk Gohan would be the strongest "version" of Beast, the same would apply to Broly since they both control their power in similar ways. That Broly was breaking dimensions, surviving against Blue Gogeta for a good while and was said to be stronger than Beerus, so I certainly don't see him as the weaker of the two.

It would also be remiss not to mention that this Broly was only said to be inferior to Gohan by way of having less control and experience, not less raw power. Gohan was distinctly impressed by that power (he also mentions it's unlike any other Super Saiyan, although that's clearly a separate statement), whereas with Goku he found his evasiveness more impressive. There's also the statement by Toriyama implying he'd be the last resort against a perfected Cell Max.

With that said, the form in this chapter is probably closer to his green-haired berserk state from the movie than the initial yellow-haired state, given that his musculature is noticeably bulkier. He only fights Gohan for about five panels, so there's no way of telling definitively where this current Broly stands in relation to the others. Any pecking order here is purely speculative, but we can say he's at the bottom in experience.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

It depends. If you subscribe to the idea that a berserk Gohan would be the strongest "version" of Beast, the same would apply to Broly since they both control their power in similar ways. That Broly was breaking dimensions, surviving against Blue Gogeta for a good while and was said to be stronger than Beerus, so I certainly don't see him as the weaker of the two.

It would also be remiss not to mention that this Broly was only said to be inferior to Gohan by way of having less control and experience, not less raw power. Gohan was distinctly impressed by that power (he also mentions it's unlike any other Super Saiyan, although that's clearly a separate statement), whereas with Goku he found his evasiveness more impressive. There's also the statement by Toriyama implying he'd be the last resort against a perfected Cell Max.

With that said, the form in this chapter is probably closer to his green-haired berserk state from the movie than the initial yellow-haired state, given that his musculature is noticeably bulkier. He only fights Gohan for about five panels, so there's no way of telling definitively where this current Broly stands in relation to the others. Any pecking order here is purely speculative, but we can say he's at the bottom in experience.

Do you think it's possible the manga is just ignoring the green hair? The full color releases gave Kale and Broly (In flashbacks) dirty blond hair. Would go in hand with how the green hair wasn't in the movie script, but was a nod from Toei instead.

[Thani]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

It depends. If you subscribe to the idea that a berserk Gohan would be the strongest "version" of Beast, the same would apply to Broly since they both control their power in similar ways. That Broly was breaking dimensions, surviving against Blue Gogeta for a good while and was said to be stronger than Beerus, so I certainly don't see him as the weaker of the two.

It would also be remiss not to mention that this Broly was only said to be inferior to Gohan by way of having less control and experience, not less raw power. Gohan was distinctly impressed by that power (he also mentions it's unlike any other Super Saiyan, although that's clearly a separate statement), whereas with Goku he found his evasiveness more impressive. There's also the statement by Toriyama implying he'd be the last resort against a perfected Cell Max.

With that said, the form in this chapter is probably closer to his green-haired berserk state from the movie than the initial yellow-haired state, given that his musculature is noticeably bulkier. He only fights Gohan for about five panels, so there's no way of telling definitively where this current Broly stands in relation to the others. Any pecking order here is purely speculative, but we can say he's at the bottom in experience.

Do you think it's possible the manga is just ignoring the green hair? The full color releases gave Kale and Broly (In flashbacks) dirty blond hair. Would go in hand with how the green hair wasn't in the movie script, but was a nod from Toei instead.

I think that's exactly the case. The green hair was more of an homage from Shintani to the old movie (and Broly's image in the fandom overall). It looks cool, and it helps distinguish Broly and Kale's "unique" super saiyan, but as far as Toriyama (and the manga) is concerned, it's still yellow-colored, even if dirty-yellow.

It's called Super Saiyan Full Power or something because it's just Broly using the full power of his unique super saiyan form against Gogeta, just like Kale's which bulks her up immensely when she uses it.

[Mr Baggins]

Do you think it's possible the manga is just ignoring the green hair?

Maybe, but maybe not.

In Toyotaro's 3 depictions of the Broly arc, we've seen an armored Super Saiyan Broly and a bulkier shirtless Super Saiyan Broly. The full color release from Shueisha displays the hair of both as a "dirty" bronze color, almost between yellow and green. His hair color doesn't change, but his physique appears to.

In the movie, Broly's initial Super Saiyan is straight yellow (the same as Goku, Vegeta, etc.) whereas his full power state is green – no dirty hue to be found.

If that's not confusing enough, the full color manga gives Kale a similar color to what Broly has, yet Kefla has the same green hair from the anime. Hard to say if Toyotaro is putting his own spin on the colors or if there's something more to it, but my take is that the actual forms seem to be more or less the same.

[Hugo Boss]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

Agreed. That’s pretty much what the chapter suggests, that Broly needs to develop his control over his own “beast” power. He only managed to access the Super Saiyan form, thus needing to practice and get used to amass large amounts of ki, like Gohan did.

I do find it interesting to think about the EoZ. Goku is the strongest. I'm curious if they keep that or retcon entirely. If they keep it, then what arc would make sense to have Goku be in a league of his own and Gohan and Vegeta both seemingly have accepted it (EoZ). In the same thought, they'd need to make it open ended enough so there could be something after EoZ...I guess Uub?

From what Whis once said, there are multiple levels of control over Ultra Instinct, so Goku has still a long way ahead of him. We don’t know what technically differentiates them though. It’s up for the next arcs to explore that minutia. From my own point of view, Goku might have to integrate tools into his fighting style.

By the way, Oob was introduced in Super as someone with a huge amount of divine ki, not even looking tired after feeding Goku’s ultra instinct to beyond limits, so it’s likely we will see something about him again.

[Yuji]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

Agreed. That’s pretty much what the chapter suggests, that Broly needs to develop his control over his own “beast” power. He only managed to access the Super Saiyan form, thus needing to practice and get used to amass large amounts of ki, like Gohan did.

I do find it interesting to think about the EoZ. Goku is the strongest. I'm curious if they keep that or retcon entirely. If they keep it, then what arc would make sense to have Goku be in a league of his own and Gohan and Vegeta both seemingly have accepted it (EoZ). In the same thought, they'd need to make it open ended enough so there could be something after EoZ...I guess Uub?

From what Whis once said, there are multiple levels of control over Ultra Instinct, so Goku has still a long way ahead of him. We don’t know what technically differentiates them though. It’s up for the next arcs to explore that minutia. From my own point of view, Goku might have to integrate tools into his fighting style.

By the way, Oob was introduced in Super as someone with a huge amount of divine ki, not even looking tired after feeding Goku’s ultra instinct to beyond limits, so it’s likely we will see something about him again.

Whis already explained what marks their difference. UI is always active as a technique for Whis, whereas Goku has to actively concentrate and activate it in his Super Saiyan forms and has to manifest the full unconscious version as a transformation. Beyond that, his emotions still influence his precision, whereas Whis seems to be able to showcase emotion without that interfering with the mindset needed to Ultra Instinct to its perfection. Goku's path lays in mastering the form so it wastes little to no stamina much like the mastered SS form, or just being able to use it at full power in base/Super Saiyan without resorting to a transformation to manifest it

[QuakingStar]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

It depends. If you subscribe to the idea that a berserk Gohan would be the strongest "version" of Beast, the same would apply to Broly since they both control their power in similar ways. That Broly was breaking dimensions, surviving against Blue Gogeta for a good while and was said to be stronger than Beerus, so I certainly don't see him as the weaker of the two.

It would also be remiss not to mention that this Broly was only said to be inferior to Gohan by way of having less control and experience, not less raw power. Gohan was distinctly impressed by that power (he also mentions it's unlike any other Super Saiyan, although that's clearly a separate statement), whereas with Goku he found his evasiveness more impressive. There's also the statement by Toriyama implying he'd be the last resort against a perfected Cell Max.

With that said, the form in this chapter is probably closer to his green-haired berserk state from the movie than the initial yellow-haired state, given that his musculature is noticeably bulkier. He only fights Gohan for about five panels, so there's no way of telling definitively where this current Broly stands in relation to the others. Any pecking order here is purely speculative, but we can say he's at the bottom in experience.

That's only for the movie, there is no indication thr green hair form or dimension break happened in the manga. Goku's reaction definitely seems to indicate Broly was using that power, but then it was shown of course that Broly managed to control it. Do I think Broly has more power to delve into? of course. But there is zero indication it's more than the others have. The him being stronger than Beerus thing seems extremely unlikely now.

[Mr Baggins]

That's only for the movie, there is no indication thr green hair form or dimension break happened in the manga.

His hair isn't green in the manga if you believe Shueisha's colorists, but the form itself absolutely happened. Per Naohiro Shintani, Toriyama only drew Broly's designs up to his less bulky armored Super Saiyan form. When Shintani designed SSFP, he didn't just give him green hair – he also increased his muscle mass and made him shirtless as a throwback to Z Broly, and we clearly see this form in Toyotaro's depictions of the movie. So we know for a fact that the manga recapped the film in general and not just the concepts Toriyama came up with.

The only difference (that we know of) is the hair colors, and that's just an aesthetic choice. Toyotaro also encouraged his readers to go watch the movie since his manga didn't adapt it.

Goku's reaction definitely seems to indicate Broly was using that power, but then it was shown of course that Broly managed to control it.

Not sure why you keep bringing Goku's reaction up. You understand that Broly going berserk and having white eyes isn't exclusively a trait of SSFP, right? It was inherent to his initial SS stage as well. The increased musculature points to it being closer to a controlled "FP" state, but that's it, and it's hard to say for sure.

Do I think Broly has more power to delve into? of course. But there is zero indication it's more than the others have.

The indication is Toriyama's scripting. He screenplayed the movie's dialogue in which Broly was compared to Beerus, and also wrote chapters 101-103. Broly right now may not be stronger than Beerus, but I'm frankly not all that convinced the current Broly is exactly as strong as the berserk one they fought a few years back.

I would agree that there's more power Broly can tap into, but I think the degree of said untapped strength is obviously a big deal. He's DB's Hulk, so him being the powerhouse of the group (albeit with the least experience and fighting prowess) is kind of his whole thing. There's a reason Toriyama spoke so highly of his power every time he was mentioned.

[QuakingStar]

That's only for the movie, there is no indication thr green hair form or dimension break happened in the manga.

His hair isn't green in the manga if you believe Shueisha's colorists, but the form itself absolutely happened. Per Naohiro Shintani, Toriyama only drew Broly's designs up to his less bulky armored Super Saiyan form. When Shintani designed SSFP, he didn't just give him green hair – he also increased his muscle mass and made him shirtless as a throwback to Z Broly, and we clearly see this form in Toyotaro's depictions of the movie. So we know for a fact that the manga recapped the film in general and not just the concepts Toriyama came up with.

The only difference (that we know of) is the hair colors, and that's just an aesthetic choice. Toyotaro also encouraged his readers to go watch the movie since his manga didn't adapt it.

Goku's reaction definitely seems to indicate Broly was using that power, but then it was shown of course that Broly managed to control it.

Not sure why you keep bringing Goku's reaction up. You understand that Broly going berserk and having white eyes isn't exclusively a trait of SSFP, right? It was inherent to his initial SS stage as well. The increased musculature points to it being closer to a controlled "FP" state, but that's it, and it's hard to say for sure.

Do I think Broly has more power to delve into? of course. But there is zero indication it's more than the others have.

The indication is Toriyama's scripting. He screenplayed the movie's dialogue in which Broly was compared to Beerus, and also wrote chapters 101-103. Broly right now may not be stronger than Beerus, but I'm frankly not all that convinced the current Broly is exactly as strong as the berserk one they fought a few years back.

I would agree that there's more power Broly can tap into, but I think the degree of said untapped strength is obviously a big deal. He's DB's Hulk, so him being the powerhouse of the group (albeit with the least experience and fighting prowess) is kind of his whole thing. There's a reason Toriyama spoke so highly of his power every time he was mentioned.

The two stages of the unique SS were shown by both Broly and Kale. In the manga, the only visual difference is the bulk size between the stages. For Broly his armor is still on when he was SS and he noticeable not as bulky as he is in the newest chapter, his armor was off when he was a SSFP and his bulk ir more or less the same as his SS in the new chapter.

Speaking of Toriyama you would then need to bring up how he said Gohan is the "strongest or so it's said" but then adds "BUT", and the condition of that "but" is him having the spotlight which in SH he did, and got Beast. Broly was in that same movie and in the same general interview was he not? Until its actually said or shown otherwise then Broly was using a controlled version of SSFP and nothing actually indicates otherwise, just speculation from some and that's not enough and the stronger than Beerus thing is most likely not a thing anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?

Agreed. That’s pretty much what the chapter suggests, that Broly needs to develop his control over his own “beast” power. He only managed to access the Super Saiyan form, thus needing to practice and get used to amass large amounts of ki, like Gohan did.

I do find it interesting to think about the EoZ. Goku is the strongest. I'm curious if they keep that or retcon entirely. If they keep it, then what arc would make sense to have Goku be in a league of his own and Gohan and Vegeta both seemingly have accepted it (EoZ). In the same thought, they'd need to make it open ended enough so there could be something after EoZ...I guess Uub?

From what Whis once said, there are multiple levels of control over Ultra Instinct, so Goku has still a long way ahead of him. We don’t know what technically differentiates them though. It’s up for the next arcs to explore that minutia. From my own point of view, Goku might have to integrate tools into his fighting style.

By the way, Oob was introduced in Super as someone with a huge amount of divine ki, not even looking tired after feeding Goku’s ultra instinct to beyond limits, so it’s likely we will see something about him again.

Whis already explained what marks their difference. UI is always active as a technique for Whis, whereas Goku has to actively concentrate and activate it in his Super Saiyan forms and has to manifest the full unconscious version as a transformation. Beyond that, his emotions still influence his precision, whereas Whis seems to be able to showcase emotion without that interfering with the mindset needed to Ultra Instinct to its perfection. Goku's path lays in mastering the form so it wastes little to no stamina much like the mastered SS form, or just being able to use it at full power in base/Super Saiyan without resorting to a transformation to manifest it

I’m talking from an angel vs. angel perspective. There is nothing technically revealed about what marks the difference between them. The other aspects you mentioned Goku already has figured out how to work around some of them. I’m only guessing what could be ahead of his current strongest form.

[Mr Baggins]

In the manga, the only visual difference is the bulk size between the stages.

That's the most noticeable difference. Looking at the three occasions that Toyotaro drew the Broly arc (in addition to splash pages in the collected volumes) SSFP Broly's hair is also wilder and more unkempt compared to the first SS stage, very much owing to Shintani's design.

My point is that apart from specific hair color choices adopted by Toei or Shueisha depending on the medium, there's no major distinction between the movie and manga. In the movie, stage 1 (designed by Toriyama) is yellow and stage 2 (designed by Shintani) is green, whereas the full color manga presents both stages as a dull bronze color. In black and white, both designs are virtually identical to the film. The "green" form still exists, albeit as a different color.

Until its actually said or shown otherwise then Broly was using a controlled version of SSFP and nothing actually indicates otherwise, just speculation from some and that's not enough and the stronger than Beerus thing is most likely not a thing anymore.

I think it's more accurate to say that until proven otherwise, pretty much everything from everyone is speculation and guesswork. This current Broly only appeared for a few pages, most of which had his fighting obscured by a cloud of smoke. He's tossed around by Gohan for, like, one panel, but again, that's attributed to a gap in experience rather than the raw brute strength Broly is known for.

I'm not disagreeing that the form in this chapter is likely some controlled version of the second bulky stage. I just don't see how Goku's reaction per se is indicative of anything, nor is there any indication that the statement about Beerus was retconned; too many things suggest otherwise. If berserk Gohan is Gohan at his strongest, the same standard applies to Broly.

Also, the exact order of these characters would vary pretty drastically depending on whether you're talking about experience, raw power, or overall fighting ability. A major plot point of this chapter is that everyone has their own equally valid specialties, even if there are also areas they'd need to work on.

[Miracles]

We can guess work on Broly all day but the chronological canonical facts are that Broly was never among the strongest in the universe during the Granolah arc. Therefore subject to the supreme powers of Granolah, Gas, Goku and Vegeta. He always had his berserker power too, stated in Super Hero's CH. 93.

Black Freeza entered Super Hero as the strongest. Was stated to be "something else" compared to Goku, Vegeta and Broly. After Cheelai asked what would Goku do if Freeza showed up on Beerus's planet, he had no answer. Freeza would obviously wreck all three Saiyajin.

Now Broly has controlled his power making him stronger but still definitely below Freeza. Who in turn is below Lord Beerus who has always been above Broly.

These are just canon facts.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Of course Broly wasn't the strongest. He couldn't even go Super Saiyan!

Granolah and Gas were total dogwater. Gas at his best was still a ragdoll to UI Goku at full power. Wouldn't be surprised if 73 Moro could give Granolah trouble.

[Miracles]

In CH. 93 Broly was going Berserk. Broly could always go SSJ. He'd just lose control doing so.

[Yuji]

Super Boo (Vegetto absorbed, permanent fusion) has to go through the events of Super. He kills Shin, meaning no Beerus, but he still has to face Golden Freeza after 4 years, Goku Black/Zamasu a year later, Broly, Moro afterwards as well as Granolah/Gas.

Which threats could he realistically handle? Keep in mind he'd have those years to train, as well as the same knowledge and prep time the actual Dragon Team had for the same threats. This is assuming Vegetto's power in itself isn't already enough to put him in contention with some of the weaker villains.

[ZombieVito]

Super Boo (Vegetto absorbed, permanent fusion) has to go through the events of Super. He kills Shin, meaning no Beerus, but he still has to face Golden Freeza after 4 years, Goku Black/Zamasu a year later, Broly, Moro afterwards as well as Granolah/Gas.

Which threats could he realistically handle? Keep in mind he'd have those years to train, as well as the same knowledge and prep time the actual Dragon Team had for the same threats. This is assuming Vegetto's power in itself isn't already enough to put him in contention with some of the weaker villains.

Without training he would be beaten by Golden Freeza.

With training? I think he clears. Boo with just an hour of training went from Boo arc SS2+ tier to current base tier. I can see him reaching UI tier easily after 4 years of training.

[Hugo Boss]

Now Broly has controlled his power making him stronger but still definitely below Freeza. Who in turn is below Lord Beerus who has always been above Broly.

These are just canon facts.

This is not accurate. Broly is now able to use the Super Saiyan form, but it is noted by Beerus he can’t control his full berserker power yet, which Gohan can in short bursts, marking the difference between them. The berserker form of Broly is still above Beerus, until further notice.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In CH. 93 Broly was going Berserk. Broly could always go SSJ. He'd just lose control doing so.

They made it clear in chapter 102 or 103 that he couldn't transform at all.

Super Boo (Vegetto absorbed, permanent fusion) has to go through the events of Super. He kills Shin, meaning no Beerus, but he still has to face Golden Freeza after 4 years, Goku Black/Zamasu a year later, Broly, Moro afterwards as well as Granolah/Gas.

Which threats could he realistically handle? Keep in mind he'd have those years to train, as well as the same knowledge and prep time the actual Dragon Team had for the same threats. This is assuming Vegetto's power in itself isn't already enough to put him in contention with some of the weaker villains.

Even without training he'd be stronger than Freeza's inferior forms and Future Zamasu, but Golden Freeza would destroy him. With training I imagine he'd be stronger than Oob's full potential, which I'd say is UI level since he brought Goku from 0 to 100% vs Moro.

Come to think of it, a story with Trunks going to the past and only finding Boo would be wicked.

Now Broly has controlled his power making him stronger but still definitely below Freeza. Who in turn is below Lord Beerus who has always been above Broly.

These are just canon facts.

This is not accurate. Broly is now able to use the Super Saiyan form, but it is noted by Beerus he can’t control his full berserker power yet, which Gohan can in short bursts, marking the difference between them. The berserker form of Broly is still above Beerus, until further notice.

I'd say he was a "controlled berserk". This name might seem odd, but the mass increase we saw only happens when he goes SSJFP.

[Hugo Boss]

I'd say he was a "controlled berserk". This name might seem odd, but the mass increase we saw only happens when he goes SSJFP.

Gohan was the “controlled berserker”. Broly was more like Gohan when he is not in that “controlled berserker” level.

[Miracles]

In CH. 93 Broly was going Berserk. Broly could always go SSJ. He'd just lose control doing so.

They made it clear in chapter 102 or 103 that he couldn't transform at all.

Not true. Broly purposelessly suppressed it because he would lose control doing so. Hence why in CH 93 he was Going to transform and go berserk again.

Now Broly has controlled his power making him stronger but still definitely below Freeza. Who in turn is below Lord Beerus who has always been above Broly.

These are just canon facts.

This is not accurate. Broly is now able to use the Super Saiyan form, but it is noted by Beerus he can’t control his full berserker power yet, which Gohan can in short bursts, marking the difference between them. The berserker form of Broly is still above Beerus, until further notice.

Broly was never stated to be above Beerus, Secondly, Broly's full power period [SSj/Green haired/purple hair; you name it, lol] was weaker than Granolah, Gas, Goku, Vegeta last arc. Who in turn were all weaker than Beerus. Broly is now currently stated to be weaker than Freeza. After Freeza became the strongest due to killing Gas [Who was the strongest].