Humans in the story

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:56 am

JulieYBM wrote:Yes, but Saiyan bodies are strronger than human ones, eventually they're going to crash, not to mention they couldn't possibly use a x50 times Kaiô-ken quickly.

Tenshinhan's body sustained shin kikoho who is stronger than kaioken.
Anyway,i don't think Tenshinhan was a regular human at least according to daizenshuu,but that's another story.

A god whose fighting skills are weaker than Nappa`s (who is below a 8000 power level) despite having centuries to train.

I think its safe to assume that kaio`s fighting potential is not that good or as high as the sayans or the humans fighters who visited him.

Too obvious.

I don`t see any reason to why Tenshinhan couldn`t have learned it if he was the one who stayed the longest with Kaio.

Who knows if kaioken principles were the base to make shin kikoho.
After all, he said that he would mix kaio's techniques with his own.

"He quickly overcame this planet's gravity... He really is as great as I'd hoped... And still 118 days remaining! He may be the one who can master the Kaio-Ken! The Kaio-Ken that I have yearned of, but could never master myself! Oh, for that final attack!"

Tenshinhan and the others overcame gravity even faster than goku,so... Tenshinhan had the conditions and the time to learn the technique.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:37 pm

Tenshinhan's body sustained shin kikoho who is stronger than kaioken.

...what? Such thing never happened.

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:43 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tenshinhan's body sustained shin kikoho who is stronger than kaioken.
...what? Such thing never happened.

Never happened?:shock:

Tenshinhan fired SK 4 times against Cell and he survived.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:00 pm

The Shin kikoho happened, but I don`t see why you say that technique is stronger than kaioken.

They have nothing to do with each other apparently. Some say that Shin kikoho uses the principles of kaioken but that is just speculation. Nothing is revealed on how Shin Kikoho works.

So apparently they are two techniques which have nothing to do with each other and there is nothing to suggest that they couldn`t be used at the same time (if Tenshinhan knew the kaioken), making a much more powerful Shin kikoho.

So I fail to see why exactly it is "stronger".

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:08 pm

What the Daizenshuu says about Tienshinhan's technique?

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:28 pm

It needs to say its totally awesome and should have been used more in the show.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:31 pm

A requirement for one to have power and usefulness seems to be character development.

T'en's character had nowhere to go.
And it could well have been distracting considering what all was going on...
Hmm.

I wonder... had Tien and Chaozu fused?

The other fusions we have in the series make that a little difficult to not relegate to BS, but eh...

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:15 pm

They may have used the earrings but they could not have used the fusion dance. I think it would have weakened Tien since he was stronger, and I'm sure they would have gotten a bit smaller you think?

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:17 pm

rereboy wrote:The Shin kikoho happened, but I don`t see why you say that technique is stronger than kaioken.

They have nothing to do with each other apparently. Some say that Shin kikoho uses the principles of kaioken but that is just speculation. Nothing is revealed on how Shin Kikoho works.

So apparently they are two techniques which have nothing to do with each other and there is nothing to suggest that they couldn`t be used at the same time (if Tenshinhan knew the kaioken), making a much more powerful Shin kikoho.

So I fail to see why exactly it is "stronger".

Stronger,because SK can increase your power level further than KK.

CashmanX · Post by **CashmanX** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 pm

temujin wrote:
rereboy wrote:The Shin kikoho happened, but I don`t see why you say that technique is stronger than kaioken.

They have nothing to do with each other apparently. Some say that Shin kikoho uses the principles of kaioken but that is just speculation. Nothing is revealed on how Shin Kikoho works.

So apparently they are two techniques which have nothing to do with each other and there is nothing to suggest that they couldn`t be used at the same time (if Tenshinhan knew the kaioken), making a much more powerful Shin kikoho.

So I fail to see why exactly it is "stronger".
Stronger,because SK can increase your power level further than KK.

How so?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:30 pm

temujin wrote: Stronger,because SK can increase your power level further than KK.

Where do you base that?

If I recall correctly, kikoho works by amplifying all your ki in one single blast. This is what is stated in the series.

Nothing is stated about Shin Kikoho so we can only speculate. It appears that it works by amplifying your ki in various powerful blasts instead of one.

However it would appear that kikoho uses all the ki that you have within you and works with it into the blast.

But kaioken basically multiplies your ki.

So logic states that a kikoho without the kaioken will have less ki to work with, and so it will be weaker.

So I would really like to know where do you base that Shin kikoho increases your power level further than kaioken.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:32 pm

temujin wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Tenshinhan's body sustained shin kikoho who is stronger than kaioken.
...what? Such thing never happened.
Never happened?:shock:
Tenshinhan fired SK 4 times against Cell and he survived.

Holy crap, you wrote 'Kikoho'? Oh dang, I read it as 'Kaio-ken'. My apologies.

*Attacks his cat for waking him up too early!*

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:09 am

LeprikanGT wrote:They may have used the earrings but they could not have used the fusion dance. I think it would have weakened Tenshinhan since he was stronger, and I'm sure they would have gotten a bit smaller you think?

Potara is confusing enough that for all we know, that they've been together for so long might have added benefits... But I wasn't really thinking an established style of fusion... which... is kinda why I mensioned them?*confuses self* o_o

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:21 am

I'm not sure it's ever stated that Kikoho in any way amplifies your ki beyond normal. No more than you amplify your ki when you raise it, anyway. People seem to forget that the good guys are always making their ki bigger, as Piccolo tells Gero.

Kikoho is described as focusing all of your ki into your hands and releasing it in a kiai type blast. I see it as being similar to self destructing, but aiming the blast away from yourself. In other words, a normal Kikoho (back in the 22nd tournament days anyway) would use all the ki in your body and kill you, if you weren't careful enough to leave yourself some to survive. It doesn't have to amplify anything, it just uses everything you have.

Shin Kikoho seems to be more powerful and can be fired rapidly, which to me means that Tenshinhan had enough ki at that point to fire several in a row. Or, as it's been suggested, maybe he incorporated the theory of Kaioken into it. There's no evidence, but it's a cool explanation.

I suggest checking out Herms' Special Attack Dictionary when you need this sort of information. It's very useful.

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:11 am

If I recall correctly, kikoho works by amplifying all your ki in one single blast. This is what is stated in the series

Exactly and when a fighter amplifies his ki, his power level raises as well.
It is a fact,nothing that someone can make a big deal of it.

I'm not sure it's ever stated that Kikoho in any way amplifies your ki beyond normal. No more than you amplify your ki when you raise it

It isn't above normal and with that attack Tenshinhan holds Cell?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:23 am

temujin wrote:It isn't above normal and with that attack Tenshinhan holds Cell?

It's bigger than most other ki attacks, but them seems to stem more from the fact that it drains you completely than that it amplified it somehow. In Shin Kikoho's case it could be a mix of both though, I guess.

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:39 am

Bussani wrote:
temujin wrote:It isn't above normal and with that attack Tenshinhan holds Cell?
It's bigger than most other ki attacks, but them seems to stem more from the fact that it drains you completely than that it amplified it somehow. In Shin Kikoho's case it could be a mix of both though, I guess.

It could be a mix of both.
But,if you use everything that you have,it will drain you.
If goku fires several kamehameha he will be exhausted as well.
SK increases the force of the Kikoho meaning that SK is an amplification of a previous technique the Kikoho.

It doesn't have to amplify anything, it just uses everything you have.

Tenshinhan used a small kikoho to make a small hole in the 23 world tournament to protect everyone,so it seems you can use it without using everything you have.

People seem to forget that the good guys are always making their ki bigger, as Piccolo tells Gero.

Sure,their ki and power level.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:14 am

caejones wrote:A requirement for one to have power and usefulness seems to be character development.

T'en's character had nowhere to go.
And it could well have been distracting considering what all was going on...
Hmm.

Here is a valid point considering trashing characters when the story goes on.

Take Piccolo as an example.
- First we see him as the evil demon Piccolo. He fights Goku and loses.
- Then Goku dies at the hands of Piccolo, and Piccolo is the strongest left to train Gohan.
- Piccolo's function in the Saiya-jin fight is to "lead the team" since he is the strongest until Goku comes. Also, his death leads to that the Dragonballs cease to exist and furthermore, to the trip to Namek.
- In Namek, his fusion with Nail only adds to the "Freeza is undefeatable" mood.
Vegeta fights Freeza, then Freeza gets stronger. Gohan fights Freeza, and makes not much damage, and then Piccolo fights him, just to show that they all have no chance.
- In the Android arc, his character development leads to his fusion with Kami. He serves as the guy who keeps things safe until Goku wakes up again.
- In the Buu arc, he becomes the mentor of Goten and Trunks, and teaches them the Fusion.

And then he becomes useless.

Tenshinhan had no special characteristics, nor abilities to be relevant to the plot.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:46 pm

... I've an idea!
A ... really stupid idea...

... What if Lunch was turned into a cyborg?

Except, well, we've already got Krillin / #18... but eh.

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:55 pm

Yeah that would be sort fo a copy cat type move.

But go Lunch for the only non-Super Saiyan "Super Saiyan' transformation via her sneeze.