Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

[MR.Mark]

I always liked Toriyama's bit with Freeza not being able to properly control his full power. Freeza to me comes off like a freak of nature that was born with a absurd amount of ki. He pegs me as a spoiled brat who didn't train/earn his power through hard work.

[Cableguy15]

Strangely enough, he seemed to have perfect control over his power in his true form when we saw it, so I never really understood why he would have trouble controlling it. He could go from 50 to 70 percent in the blink of an eye after all. Maybe he just wanted to get his battle power low enough so a machine could read it. lol

[Savage68]

Strangely enough, he seemed to have perfect control over his power in his true form when we saw it, so I never really understood why he would have trouble controlling it. He could go from 50 to 70 percent in the blink of an eye after all.

That wasn't really "Freeza's power" though, it was only a suppressed percentage of Freeza's power. I think it's only when he goes past 70% (which is when his body starts to bulk up) that he has trouble maintain/controlling his power.

[Cableguy15]

Strangely enough, he seemed to have perfect control over his power in his true form when we saw it, so I never really understood why he would have trouble controlling it. He could go from 50 to 70 percent in the blink of an eye after all.

That wasn't really "Freeza's power" though, it was only a suppressed percentage of Freeza's power. I think it's only when he goes past 70% (which is when his body starts to bulk up) that he has trouble maintain/controlling his power.

True, but I don't think that has much to do with his other transformations. If he can control his early percentages to such a degree, then staying away from the more draining percentages shouldn't be too much of a problem. I also still wonder if it was his injuries that caused his power to decrease, not the bulky form itself. Goku even made it a point to doubt that he could reach 100% with all his injuries from the fight. Then again there's a few cases where it's established that being bulky is a bad thing in a fight anyway...

[rereboy]

Freeza can`t decrease his power lower than 500 000 with his transformations. And without them, he can`t decrease it lower than a few millions.

That`s why he needs the transformations. Someone walking around with a power of millions at all times is clearly excessive for any normal interaction with his surrounding world. With 500 000 its much easier, while still being an enormous amount of power to be walking with. He must pretty careful to not destroy anything he doesn`t mean to destroy.

Goku and the others eventually become much more powerful, but they can decrease they power to 5000 or lower in their normal state without any trouble.

[Darkprince410]

Freeza can`t decrease his power lower than 500 000 with his transformations. And without them, he can`t decrease it lower than a few millions.

That`s why he needs the transformations. Someone walking around with a power of millions at all times is clearly excessive for any normal interaction with his surrounding world. With 500 000 its much easier, while still being an enormous amount of power to be walking with. He must pretty careful to not destroy anything he doesn`t mean to destroy.

Goku and the others eventually become much more powerful, but they can decrease they power to 5000 or lower in their normal state without any trouble.

Basically I saw it that way. He doesn't have the ability to suppress his strength without the use of his transformations, which would make any interaction with objects or other individuals. Remember when Piccolo, while watching Goku fighting Frieza, made the comment that it felt like their ki was crushing him? Though it was a combination of their ki and all, the fact remained that this was the fourth strongest (fifth if you include the at the time unintroduced King Cold) being in the universe at the time making the comment about a still greatly suppressed Frieza, so it's easy to see that a being with a battle power only around a thousand or so would probably be incapacitated if not outright killed by just being in range of Frieza's output if he were at 50%, let alone 70%.

Though it was a filler scene, the scene in the anime where Goku and Gohan were home following them leaving the Room of Spirit and Time depicts the issues that Frieza would likely have if he walked around all the time without his suppressions. Goku and Gohan were constantly breaking glasses and doing other things because they couldn't at yet control their strength. Given his ki control, this is what would happen to Frieza (though likely on a more grandiose scale) for quite awhile if he went around unsuppressed.

[Cableguy15]

Freeza can`t decrease his power lower than 500 000 with his transformations. And without them, he can`t decrease it lower than a few millions.

That`s why he needs the transformations. Someone walking around with a power of millions at all times is clearly excessive for any normal interaction with his surrounding world. With 500 000 its much easier, while still being an enormous amount of power to be walking with. He must pretty careful to not destroy anything he doesn`t mean to destroy.

Goku and the others eventually become much more powerful, but they can decrease they power to 5000 or lower in their normal state without any trouble.

That sounds pretty logical. I guess I never really thought of how inconvenient it'd be not to be able to lower your power to a certain point.

Remember when Piccolo, while watching Goku fighting Freeza, made the comment that it felt like their ki was crushing him? Though it was a combination of their ki and all, the fact remained that this was the fourth strongest (fifth if you include the at the time unintroduced King Cold) being in the universe at the time making the comment about a still greatly suppressed Freeza, so it's easy to see that a being with a battle power only around a thousand or so would probably be incapacitated if not outright killed by just being in range of Freeza's output if he were at 50%, let alone 70%.

I always thought that line was more of a metaphor for how much weaker they all were than Goku or Freeza. Piccolo was the only one who said it after all, while Gohan and Krillin were certainly weaker than him by this point and didn't really seem to be bothered by it as much.

Tough it was a filler scene, the scene in the anime where Goku and Gohan were home following them leaving the Room of Spirit and Time depicts the issues that Freeza would likely have if he walked around all the time without his suppressions. Goku and Gohan were constantly breaking glasses and doing other things because they couldn't at yet control their strength. Given his ki control, this is what would happen to Freeza (though likely on a more grandiose scale) for quite awhile if he went around unsuppressed.

A good canon example might be when Goku just patted ChiChi on the back and sent her flying through the house and into their yard. And this is even happening to Goku, someone who had amazing ki control by the time he reached Namek.

[Bussani]

A good canon example might be when Goku just patted ChiChi on the back and sent her flying through the house and into their yard. And this is even happening to Goku, someone who had amazing ki control by the time he reached Namek.

I always forget that one...and he wasn't even a Super Saiyan! What an unreliable guy he can be.

[Terra-jin]

I've always liked the thought that Cold was stronger than Freeza, because then we'd have a great fight between Goku and Cold in the original timeline. Trunks was more inclined to make short work of the two monsters, but Goku would've liked to see Cold's final form.

There's a lot that points to Cold actually being weaker than Freeza, but there are still some arguments for the contrary.

Although it's possible that Cold was in his true form, it's less likely because he resembles Freeza's second form so much. Since they're of the same race, you'd think that they'd have the same line of transformations. There's nothing to contradict this, so that makes it more likely that Cold could transform after all.
Following that assumption, Cold has two more forms that have greater power. But to what extent goes this power? The only thing we have is that second-form Cold's ki was greater than Metal Freeza's suppressed ki. This seems to put Cold at quite a high powerlevel, since Freeza's suppressed form is still pretty high (random internet sources put him at 3,5 million or so). If Cold therefore has, say, 4 milllion in his second form, following the increments Freeza had, Cold would be at around 400 million..! The numbers may be a little inaccurate, but if you work it out, the result shouldn't stray too far from these figures.
NOTE: this line of thought does depend on the assumption that Cold's forms suppress the same amount of energy as Freeza's. This can go either way, but since drawing a parallel between both monsters seems intuitive, it has at least some merit.

So then there's the question why Cold didn't just transform right away, instead of using Trunks' sword. As others have pointed out, Cold genuinely believed Trunks couldn't have defeated Freeza if he didn't have his sword. It could be a matter of pride for Cold not to use his prestigious transformations against an otherwise weak enemy who relied on his weapon, so he'd try to trick Trunks first. If Trunks had refused to give his sword away, I think Cold would've transformed as yet. He probably wanted to do it after his trick with the sword backfired, but Trunks left him no chance.

To summarize: Cold's forms are comparable to Freeza's in order and power. The statement that 2nd form Cold was stronger than (suppressed) Metal Freeza would mean that Cold's true form was indeed stronger than Freeza.

[Savage68]

Although it's possible that Cold was in his true form, it's less likely because he resembles Freeza's second form so much. Since they're of the same race, you'd think that they'd have the same line of transformations. There's nothing to contradict this, so that makes it more likely that Cold could transform after all.

As I said earlier in this very topic, if Cold was capable of increasing his strength in any way, shape, or form - it would've been implied. You can't just say he could transform simply because he resembles Freeza's 2nd form. That isn't anywhere near being decisive enough. If Cold's (alleged) forms were analogous to Freeza's, why was he randomly in that particular one, then? And besides, there's still Freeza's statement (that he made in front of Cold), claiming that he was #1 in the universe. Statements are always more reliable to go by than theories.

[Kaboom]

Transforming DOES take time, though. Time which Trunks probably wouldn't have let Cold have. Each time Freeza transformed on Namek, the heroes were either busy trying to prepare or too flabbergasted to do anything. Such was not the case with Trunks. Transformed or not, he'd have nothing to worry about.

[Savage68]

Even if time was a priority, Cold should've been in his most powerful form upon arriving on Earth. He's supposedly going to be of help in a battle with two fighters that are each significantly stronger than himself? Why he would be so ill-prepared for that?

[VegettoEX]

Even if time was a priority, Cold should've been in his most powerful form upon arriving on Earth. He's supposedly going to be of help in a battle with two fighters that are each significantly stronger than himself? Why he would be so ill-prepared for that?

Arrogance and denial, something the family seems to be known for...?

[Savage68]

I'd rather not fall back on something like that. Cold knew that he was going to be dealing with a Super Saiyan, something that he knows is stronger than Freeza, who is stronger than himself. And I still would need to why Cold is supposedly in a 2nd form, even though it would be weaker than the base Saiyans and Piccolo were...on Namek. I guess one could argue that he wouldn't need to be walking around in his most powerful state all the time, but if Freeza (back on Namek) knew that someone more powerful than his 3rd or final form was going to do battle with him, I highly doubt that he would still go into it while heavily suppressed. Even though he's known for his arrogance/denial. Cold wasn't being an idiot just because.

[Kaboom]

Cold was also only there as possible backup. Freeza seemed to think he'd be able to defeat Goku himself thanks to his "upgrade."

[Savage68]

That's another reason why I think Cold couldn't have gotten much stronger than he was (or stronger at all). Freeza was almost Goku's equal back on Namek, and after receiving a power-up, he still even entertains the idea of needing back-up? That just says to me: Not only did Freeza's augmentations provide a minimal power boost, and on top of that, Cold couldn't have been that powerful in comparison. He was only regarded as being a helping hand. If his max were comparable to Freeza's 50% (at the most), his very presence would ensure Goku's defeat - one way or another.

But now that I think about it, Freeza's power shot up from ~50% to ~70% on Namek. Maybe Cold employed the same method of increasing his power against Trunks. I dunno, but I certainly couldn't see Cold with another transformation that he was hiding away.

[Terra-jin]

@Savage68: Those are valid points, here's my response:

As I said earlier in this very topic, if Cold was capable of increasing his strength in any way, shape, or form - it would've been implied. You can't just say he could transform simply because he resembles Freeza's 2nd form. That isn't anywhere near being decisive enough.

Agreed, I won't say that it's definitely true. It's a bit more probable than possible (if that makes sense ). I'm more of an inductive-logic thinker.

If Cold's (alleged) forms were analogous to Freeza's, why was he randomly in that particular one, then?

Same reason as Freeza, suppressing power... so why wouldn't he be in the small, first form? Perhaps because he's better at controlling his power than Freeza.

And besides, there's still Freeza's statement (that he made in front of Cold), claiming that he was #1 in the universe. Statements are always more reliable to go by than theories.

There's that... but it's a statement by a character, not the narrator. I get the feeling that Cold let his son take on the role of emperor so he wouldn't have to bother with ruling the universe himself. Instead, he'd be watching from the sideline. For Freeza to fulfill this role though, he has to proclaim to be the strongest (in front of his enemies and henchmen, at least).

I highly doubt that he would still go into it while heavily suppressed. Even though he's known for his arrogance/denial. Cold wasn't being an idiot just because.

Well, he's just that convinced that Freeza was able to kill Goku. He did go with him to make sure, so he'd probably start transforming when he sees Freeza lose the upper hand in the fight.

When this happened with Trunks, Cold still didn't acknowledge Trunks' power because of the whole sword thing. If Trunks beat Freeza without it, I think Cold would've started to transform earlier.


So there's a lot of possibilities. It's all very difficult to definitely prove, but I think most of these points are reasonably probable.

[Cableguy15]

There's that... but it's a statement by a character, not the narrator. I get the feeling that Cold let his son take on the role of emperor so he wouldn't have to bother with ruling the universe himself. Instead, he'd be watching from the sideline. For Freeza to fulfill this role though, he has to proclaim to be the strongest (in front of his enemies and henchmen, at least).

I think his point was more that Cold never really seemed to have a problem with Freeza making this claim. Being that they're an arrogant race of people (To the point of denial as VegettoEX pointed out), it'd be kind of weird for Cold not to react at all if he even had a hunch that he might be stronger than Freeza. The Daizenshuu also seems to agree with this line of reasoning, as it points out that Cold is slightly inferior to Freeza. What's more, Cold had this funny habbit of grouping himself in with Freeza all the time. For instance, when they thought Trunks was dead, Cold said, "We did it Freeza! It seems he was no match for us after all!" We? Us? He didn't do anything. He also said something similar when Trunks said he'd kill Freeza, I believe.

Although whether or not he had more forms to use is something we'll probably never be able to figure out. I'd like to think Cold was smart enough to use his full power when he swung the sword at Trunks. After all, Trunks warned Freeza to attack with full power or else he'd be killed in an instant and what he said came true... or maybe he really was dumb enough to think it was all the sword's doing. >_>

I think if we ever find out more about Freeza's different forms (Like if he can choose what each of them looks like), it would help. Or maybe some background on the race, though even main characters' races aren't necessarily touched upon much.

[MR.Mark]

Freeza was almost Goku's equal back on Namek

Going by all the dragged out filler in the anime, this appears to be the case. Going by the manga, Freeza was clearly outclassed once Son went SSJ until the end of the fight.

[Cableguy15]

Freeza was almost Goku's equal back on Namek

Going by all the dragged out filler in the anime, this appears to be the case. Going by the manga, Freeza was clearly outclassed once Son went SSJ until the end of the fight.

Just writing it out, the battle seemed pretty even to me:

After Freeza went to 100% they were pretty evenly matched. Goku withstood the "Warm up" (A barrage of punches and kicks), then they talked briefly about how the SSJ was buying time for his friends, which made Freeza angry since he kept trying to distract him. Freeza feigned a frontal attack and hit Goku with a ki blast from above. He then attempted to punch Goku from behind, but Goku catches his arm. Goku then got a quick upper hand by throwing him into the air. He then fired a Kamehameha which Freeza withstands until separating himself from the beam and hitting Goku from the side. Goku comes back, Freeza notices Porunga, everyone besides the two of them are wished away. Next Freeza got a forearm off on Goku, while Goku got a knee in on Freeza. Goku hits with a decisive blow to Freeza's stomach, but the tyrant responds with a chop to the back and kicking him away. Goku comes flying back in a kicking motion. Freeza dodges the initial kick, but Goku gets him with his other leg.

It was by this point that Goku gained the advantage, but before that they seemed to be pretty evenly matched.