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[p123]

Yea, which is why I said the Daiz shouldn't be the biggest factor in determining BATTLE POWERS. Besides battle powers, I rarely have a problem with an extra source of information. And even with battle powers, they generally provide us good guidelines.

Perhaps my post was a little too hasty on the Daiz, but I'm not saying complete trash. That's more of a knee jerk reaction to all of the people who say hey it's in the guide it has to be true! You know? But yes, I use the Daiz and other guides as they were said to be, which are guides.

For power levels in general, I prefer to use statements, suggestions, and actions of the manga over the Daiz. But like I said before, I don't mind them being used as guides, just not so strict as the Bible or something.

[Fox666]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the evidence pretty strongly shows that nobody involved in producing the manga, anime, or guidebooks ever considered battle powers to be that terribly important.

Oh yeah, good thing you commented that! The coherence we get in the manga regarding battle powers are because Toriyama is brillant.

But not even Toriyama seen to give such importance to battle powers. Right when the scouters are introduced, it shows that the earth warriors can change their battle powers at will.

However, I do believe most of these battle powers are made by Toriyama himself.

[p123]

Toriyama is a genuius. In my findings trying to do these things, he always leaves these hints. They are actually so easy to pick up on, and something that makes this process so much easier than expected. When I tried to do GT, these little hints were not present anymore, which made me respect AT for his incredulous attention to detail even moreso.

[dbgtFO]

Lol, what happened to Savage68's hilarious post

[p123]

DBGT

On Raditz/Saibamen

1500/1200

is the same percentage of Freeza/Goku 120/150

Imo, they got both wrong. Both issues require a much closer percentag than 80%.

They are all rivals... I can't see someone being considered a rival when you are only 80% of that character.


Especially, with Goku Kaioken admitting he is no match for Vegeta which is an 88% difference at minimum,

( Goku over 8 k, with Kaioken doubles his strength over 16k )
( Vegeta stated to be barely 18,000 )

And not to mention Zarbon vs Vegeta.

In the Daiz they have

23k for Zarbon and 24 k for Vegeta. Which is 93.75% gap IIRC.


How the hell does the Daiz have rivals

Saibamen 80% of Raditz, Freeza 80% of SSJ Goku

and has a dominating fight by Vegeta

Zarbob 93.75% of Vegeta


This is contradictory, sloppy, and should not be the be all end all of power level authority.

[Kaboom]

There's other factors that go into a fight besides raw comparison of numbers (a point well-made within the series quite often). I can come up with plausible explanations for those "problems," easily.

Goku vs Vegeta

Goku gets up to 16,000 with a Kaio-Ken, but that's only a momentary boost. If that were his normal-level base power instead, he could probably put up a better fight. But as-is, he "doesn't stand a chance" unless he uses a higher Kaio-Ken and actually gets STRONGER than Vegeta, for however short a time.

SSj Goku vs 100% Freeza

Freeza's big muscles at his 100% suggest his physical attributes are improved. Even though his raw level of Ki may be 120 million, the way he pumps it into his body may let him pull off feats that seem stronger than that, but also cause him to wear down at such a quick rate. To make an analogy, he's got a certain amount of fuel but is burning it up faster.

Plus, at some point for Goku the fight became about matching himself up against the (formerly) strongest guy in the Universe. His innate lust for fighting may have caused him to pull his punches on Freeza to some degree, in order to coax that good fight out of him.

What's more, Goku and Freeza were both bruised, battered, and weary before the former transformed and the latter powered up. This most likely continued to put strain on their bodies that would affect their performance in the fight.

Vegeta vs Zarbon

Before transforming, Zarbon has a somewhat more restrained and "graceful" combat style (remember, we're talking about the guy who didn't want to get his clothes wet), which would not be a good match against Vegeta's much more brutal and aggressive methods. Hence a small difference in raw power becomes a big disadvantage thanks to imbalanced fighting styles.

[Fox666]

Besides the two pages devoted to battle powers, there are several other battle powers given throughout Daizenshuu 7's character dictionary. Several of these are ones given in the series, like Ginyu's and Nail's. The new ones are as follows, given in the biography of each character:

Kui: 18,000 [p.63]
Zarbon (normal form): about 23,000 [p.69]
Dodoria: 22,000 [p.91]
Piccolo (merged with Nail): over 1,000,000 [p.102]
Freeza's Reconnaissance Team: less than 1,500 [p.105]



So here comes the Daizenshuu guides.

To begin with, this is not a battle power guide - it's Goku evolution guide! There are several battle powers that they propositally hide (oh fuck!) like. Yajirobe, Freeza henchmen, Ginyu force, etc.

Yajirobe is given in the V-Jump. Freeza henchmen is actually stated in the characters description. These are the proofs that they intentionally hide them while they had access to it. Unfortunatelly, the Ginyu force was never officially stated.

Now I will comment the numbers themselves...



There is something I would like to state to begin with: this already contradicts the V-Jump, since it gives Goku battle power against Raditz as 416, while it should truly be at least 910.

But I don't have any problem with it, it's simply a mistake, they took it directly from the manga, they thought it was 100% safe since they were getting it straight from the manga, but they were mistaken by that.

That said, there are lot of battle powers taken from the manga that is not necessary to comment.



(Goku) First Appearance: 10

This is Goku as he appear in the beggining of the manga. This is obvious to compare him to a regular human who has a battle power of 5.

Goku power was certainly brutal at the beggining of the series:



This is one of the rare cases I have questions about the validity of a value. This is a odd value different from the others.

Goku was times stronger than Mr. Satan already. He was able to pull a montain and impress Kame-sennin.

I certainly would be happier if it was something like 50. But I am not here to especulate!

Tsuru-sennin: 120

Also given in the V-Jump. This is simply based on Tenshinhan statement that Kame-sennin was even stronger than Tsuru.

Tenshinhan: 180

The same power of Goku during their fight.

This is a redundant value that was probably cut in the V-Jump to summarize things.

(Goku) Versus Piccolo Daimao: 260

The same power as King Piccolo.

This is another redundant value that was probably cut in the V-Jump to summarize things.

(Goku) Versus Vegeta: 8,000

Goku battle power given in the manga was "over 8,000" before Vegeta broken the Scouter. But I won't take this as a contradiction beetween the Daizenshuu and manga. There are insignificant numbers on every battle power that doesn't matter.

This gives his battle power with the Kaioken as:
- Kaioken 2x: 16,000
- Kaioken 3x: 24,000
- Kaioken 4x: 32,000

Nothing special about it.

Nappa: 4,000

Since Nappa was pretty scared of hearing that Goku had 5,000 they gave him this value. When Nappa calmed down his mind, he was able to exchange some punchs with Goku, but don't lasted long as Vegeta tells him to give up.

Some fans seem to doubt this value, but I don't think it's the case. Nappa got some good hits from fellas with a power in the range of the 1,000.

Krillin: 1,770
Yamcha: 1,480
Chaozu: 610
Tenshinhan: 1,830
Piccolo: 3,500
Son Gohan: 2,800

Since Yajirobe did not partipated from the fight against Nappa, he is not given there. Chaos is the only one that not surprassed Goku during his fight with Piccolo Jr., and Yamcha not surprassed Raditz.

Kaio-ken x4: 32,000

Nothing special about it, since it is deductible from calculation.

Arrival on Planet Namek: 90,000

Not given directly from the manga, but deductible from calculation. With this power he could take down Reecome and Burter with a single punch.

Ginyu speculated that someone that could defeat his 3 comrades would have 60,000 however after fighting Goku he changes his mind and guess it would be 85,000.

Despite having just 90,000 Goku speed was already beyond that of Ginyu. Also Ginyu in Goku body with mere 23,000 still was very impressed.

As Goku said he shoud be able to perform a Kaio-ken of 10x, his total battle power would be that of 900,000 however he never used that in the series.

Son Gohan: 14,000
Krillin: 13,000
Vegeta: 30,000

Kuririn was very scared of Zarbon (who is stated as 23,000 in the character description). This range for the power of Kuririn and Gohan makes sense.

Vegeta battle power was initially wrongly given as 20,000 in the manga, but later corrected to 30,000 since it doesn't make sense for him to go from 24,000 to 20,000 after a Zenkai. Since it's a single number I guess this was a typo not a plot hole.

(Goku) Versus Freeza: 3 million

Freeza had "over 1,000,000" after his first transformation, and after several power-up Goku still is able to land a kick on his face. This makes sense.

The databooks all states Goku not using the Kaio-ken since the beggining of the battle. Some fans have complaints about it, but it's easy to get used to.

This gives his battle power with the Kaioken as:
- Kaioken 10x: 30 million
- Kaioken 20x: 60 million

Freeza 50%: 60 million
Freeza 100%: 120 million

This would just give Freeza with 50% the same power of Goku 20x Kaioken.

(Goku) Super Saiyan: 150 million

In the manga, Goku easily defeated Freeza with 100% of his power.

Also, in the manga Gohan notes the Super Saiyan Trunks having the same Ki as Goku.

Kui: 18,000 [p.63]
Zarbon (normal form): about 23,000 [p.69]
Dodoria: 22,000 [p.91]

As said in the manga, Vegeta and Cui had the same power. Nothing special about it.

Zarbon and Dodoria are very high despite that they were humilhated by Vegeta with mere 24,000. But it makes sense since Vegeta commented that they became lazy on Freeza's side. While they had 23,000 and 22,000 respectively, they did not had the combat ability of Vegeta.



Note: by the way, I did not read p123 post before posting this, despite I unintentionally giving answers to some of his questions

[dbgtFO]

I personally see it, as the Fight Power not being the only thing, that factors in, in a fight.
Mental state and such should play a role.
And skill should also, for the Vegeta/Zarbon fight to make sense. Vegeta as a Saiyan is much more skilled, than Freeza's goons, we see that, when Vegeta is able to learn ki suppression and ki sensing almost instantly, while Goku trained it during the course of 3 years and it still wasn't perfect(he couldn't sense the full power of a suppressed being for example).

And lastly, when was the last time Dodoria and Zarbon had a proper fight? Dodoria is stated by Vegeta to be out of shape making his entire Fight Power useless, implying, that he can't use it, as good, as Vegeta uses his.
And what about Zarbon?
Well he seems to be the kind of guy, who keeps in shape, but I'm pretty sure, even if he did, it probably wouldn't be as good, as what Vegeta did ie. fight against beings, who actually give you a challenge(Goku, Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe) and pushes you very close to your own demise, where it's a struggle just to stay on your legs.

This is why I basically don't think Daizenshuu 7 got it somewhat right on these two.
Also try to imagine what Freeza would have been like, if he wasn't so keen on sitting on his ass 24/7.
I'm pretty sure SSJ Goku would have been fucked, if Freeza actually tried to gain proper control over his 100% power.
EDIT: OP pretty much said, what I did, before me pretty irritaitng
And Nappa being at 4000 doesn't make sense, it's pretty much selfexplainatory, that's the number one value I don't agree with! as some people might know.

[p123]

And this is the major issue I have with the guides. When people are spending a lot of time, trying to come up with ways to explain the Daiz inadequatecies, is when I start despising them.

At the end of the day kaboom, I really find it unlikely for you to use that sort of logic if you had no knowledge of the Daiz or what they say referring those characters.

If it was just your mind juding on what the manga shows, you would have wildly varying results compared to what you use now. Which IMO is why I feel the Daiz only hurts, in power level discussions.

At the end of the day, you know as well as I that power is everything.



Freeza is shown to be on par with SSJ Goku's speed several times.


If anything Gohan is the prime example of this. When he is a kid, with hardly any training, he is able to do serious damage to grown adults, warriors their whole lives, while he, has little to no training. And simply his rage, which increases his power, makes him useful.


In our world Skill >>>> Power. We see this time and time again. If any of you guys are fans you will understand even further.

One only has to see Royce Gracie as an example of why skill is much more important than power.

But this is DB, and not real life. So Toriyama rules are in effect IMO.

Anyone watching Rampage vs Machida tonight?

Imagine if AT was influenced by today's MMA scene. It sure would make things interesting. We see Goku holding Raditz, 16 holding Perfect Cell, kind of implies grappling is not as subjective to ki as striking is. Imagine a really weak fighter choking out a much much stronger fighter. And then trying to punch their lights out while knocked unconscious and having no effect! Lol!





Anything you say about Dodoria/Zarbon skill wise should logically apply to Freeza as well. If they aren't skilled enough and have nearly equal power, then for Freeza to put up that kind of fight he would have to be stronger than Goku.

[Duo]

This is the most interesting Battle Power discussion I've seen in years, but I'm still mostly with Herms on it. They are there to show a weakness in Freeza's men and to occasionally show a comparison, like when Freeza states his power is 530,000 in his first form.

[Kaboom]

At the end of the day, Kaboom, I really find it unlikely for you to use that sort of logic if you had no knowledge of the Daiz or what they say referring those characters.
If it was just your mind juding on what the manga shows, you would have wildly varying results compared to what you use now.

Maybe. But I'm just showing that numerical power levels are just a supplement. They're only one aspect of explaining a fight, and not even the main one. There's also tactics, personalities, special abilities, fighting styles, attacks with unique properties, weaknesses and strengths, outside interference or assistance, etc... Granted, these things became less important come the 'Z-era,' but if it were all just about clashes of raw power, then the story would be very different.

[p123]

kaboom so someone who is 1/10th of anothers power can win based on tactics and personality?

Show me an example of someone winning a fight when they are even a third of their power. It simply doesn't happen!

[Kaboom]

kaboom so someone who is 1/10th of anothers power can win based on tactics and personality?

Kuririn's surprise Kienzan cut off the end of 2nd-form Freeza's tail. If Freeza had noticed it just a split second later, it would have taken his head off instead, and I doubt he could regrow that by transforming. Kuririn would thus have defeated Freeza not through the use of raw power (75,000 vs over 1,000,000), but through...

- The element of surprise. (Freeza thought Kuririn was dead, and didn't see him coming.)
- An attack with unique properties. (The Kienzan cuts anything)
- Outside assistance (Dende healed Kuririn)

Show me an example of someone winning a fight when they are even a third of their power. It simply doesn't happen!

Piccolo vs Raditz. Raditz is at about 1500, Piccolo is only a little over 400, a little over a third of Raditz's power. Goku, however, manages to get Raditz in a hold, which allows Piccolo the time and aim to pierce through Raditz with a charged Makankosappo. Thus, Piccolo has won the fight not through the use of raw power (408 vs 1500), but through...

- An attack with unique properties. (The Makankosappo is a drilling attack, which was focused and charged to be more effective)
- Outside assistance. (Gohan's headbutt, leading to Goku's full-nelson)

[dbgtFO]

kaboom so someone who is 1/10th of anothers power can win based on tactics and personality?

Show me an example of someone winning a fight when they are even a third of their power. It simply doesn't happen!

If the gap is too wide, then of course it's pointless(correct me if I'm wrong)
the idea of tactics winning a fight basically comes, when characters are very close in strength.

Just look at Round 2 between: Zarbon(monster) & Vegeta.
Vegeta starts out the fight by outsmarting Zarbon, by running away and throwing sand in his eyes.
He then proceeds to attack him from behind and throw hundreds of ki blasts at him.
After that Zarbon has been weakened to the point, where Vegeta is confident in taking him on hand to hand instead of running away(note that it's first here he tells Zarbon about Saiyans' near death boosts) and defeats him with a powerful strike to the gut.

This alone tells me, that Zarbon could actually have been a little bit stronger, than Vegeta, but due to Vegeta having actual skill and fighting smarts he manages to defeat his opponent anyways.
EDIT: Oh yeah the Kienzan, the PIS who doesn't remember that

[p123]

Kienza is good. But you know as well as I do, that is a special attack.


And for Piccolo's Light of Death, that was pretty much a set up. Why do you think I said a third? Lol. I'm sneaky I know...


Piccolo amplified his ki to beat Raditz. Which is exactly what I'm talking about. Piccolo's attack is more POWERFUL than Raditz. Which is why it is able to kill him.

As we can see Piccolo' Light of Death cannot penetrate Nappa, logically he had no time to charge it up to amplify it's POWER.


So besides Kienza, only power is going to be the true factor in battle.

[Fox666]

Dude, I understand what you mean.

But not even the manga is always precise. Why Vegeta was scared of Ginyu if he could fight someone with 530,000?

Again, battle powers are not of major importance for Toriyama or databooks. Not everything will keep a perfect balance.

The Zarbon and Dodoria thing was explained in the manga. Vegeta clearly states something about Dodoria's legendary strength and how lazy he became. I would prefer them to have less battle power, but it makes sense.


=== // === // ===


About Kienzan, it has infinite power. While the anime showed Cell being unaffected, the manga never displayed a Kienzan being blocked.

In fact the manga showed circunstances with a enormous gap beetween the characters power, such as Kuririn vs Freeza or Goku (normal state) vs Fusion Buu.


And I believe the same goes for the Makankousappou.

[Savage68]

Why Vegeta was scared of Ginyu if he could fight someone with 530,000?

Because he couldn't? Vegeta could only "fight someone with 530,000" after his near-death power-up. And his nap.

[Fox666]

Vegeta got the power-up before that. The nap is actually the only explanation out there.

But if we can accept the nap thing, why can't we just buy the Zarbon and Dodoria being lazy explanation?

[astrallite]

Vegeta ate a senzu bean after the beatdown encounter he had with Gohan and Krillin against the Ginyu Force.

There was very little logic going on during this arc because it seems like everyone was getting 20x zenkais, but this preceded the nap I believe.

[Fox666]

I am not talking about the Zenkai... it is not that huge if you compare to Goku who gone from 90,000 to 3 million


Vegeta ate a Senzu after fighting Reecome.

Vegeta is afraid with Ginyu (120,000) and Goku (90,000) power

Vegeta goes to Freeza's ship and take a quick nap

Vegeta fight Freeza (530,000) equally