Nappa vs Guldo

[Fox666]

He was dodging Goku's attacks as well as "tanking" them, that's not a feat of durability, but one of speed. In terms of Strength, his ultimate attack "took [Goku's] attack head on!" to quote Goku himself. He was amazed that his kamehameha was stopped by Nappa's blast, the same way Nappa was surprised his own blast was stopped by Goku.

So did Vegeta... he got the upper-hand against the 24,000 Kamehame-ha, and survived the 32,000 one. However I don't see anyone arguing that Vegeta is not at 18,000

Good points, Fox. However, when strictly looking at it from the quotes, well....

Nothing of that matters. Unless you are gonna say Nappa was actually stronger than Goku, there is no point in arguing of how much Nappa should have to be close enough to have a fight with Goku. You can't measure such a thing.

Indeed, brother Turlast. So do you see now Kaboom? It's not a simple matter of durability, rather--it's one of speed, and strength. How can you account for this if you rate him at a lowly 4000BP? Aside from blind faith towards, or refusal to go against, the Daizenshuu... I really can't see any justification...

And I think exactly the opposite. I don't see any reason to not take 4000 as a fact.

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

[Kaboom]

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

Exactly. There are no such strict rules. There's been a good handful of instances where much weaker characters have been able to put up a fight, when the numbers would suggest such a thing should be impossible.

For example, just soon thereafter in the Saiyan arc, Gohan gets himself pumped up and manages to hold off Vegeta, distracting him while Goku works to pass the Spirit Bomb on to Kuririn. Now Vegeta has lost some amount of power at this point due to taking hits from Goku and using the Power Ball to transform, but how much weaker could he be, really? Maybe about 10,000 at the lowest? Compared to Gohan who's, like... 2000-3000? Gohan's not even that angry compared to when Piccolo died, not to mention he's already taken a good amount of damage himself. Yet Gohan still puts up an even better fight than Nappa did against Goku, getting in a few solid hits on Vegeta.

In case nobody's noticed how the manga practically screams this at us: numbers aren't everything. Factors such as skill, mindset, and sheer determination can make a world of difference. Hence why even though I'm a little skeptical, I don't treat Nappa's 4000 as "impossible."


As for the thread's original match-up... hard to say. Gurd was at a definite power disadvantage against Gohan and Kuririn both at 15,000 or so, but we don't know by how much, since we never got a numerical listing for any of the force save Ginyu himself. So if Gurd's at something like 10,000, then he might not even need to use his psychic powers to win. If he's weaker than Nappa, then he probably still could win with them. Unless Nappa lands something crafty on him, but I don't think the big guy is that clever.

[Fox666]

For example, just soon thereafter in the Saiyan arc, Gohan gets himself pumped up and manages to hold off Vegeta, distracting him while Goku works to pass the Spirit Bomb on to Kuririn. Now Vegeta has lost some amount of power at this point due to taking hits from Goku and using the Power Ball to transform, but how much weaker could he be, really? Maybe about 10,000 at the lowest? Compared to Gohan who's, like... 2000-3000? Gohan's not even that angry compared to when Piccolo died, not to mention he's already taken a good amount of damage himself. Yet Gohan still puts up an even better fight than Nappa did against Goku, getting in a few solid hits on Vegeta.

I think that's not the best example, since the battle powers in that scene aren't clarified.
(the manga actually gives some hints, Goku said the Kaio-ken x5 won't have any effect on Vegeta, and Vegeta said that if he was at full strength he could take one or two guys like Oozaru Gohan — if you do the math this gives a clear difference beetween Vegeta and Gohan, a battle power of over 4,000 "won't have any effect" on Vegeta, while on the other hand someone with 1,800 should be able to take one or two guys at Gohan's level)

However, here is a better example:

Kuririn eventually was defeated. However in these two pages Kuririn might even have done better than Nappa did against Goku.

Zarbon stated that Kuririn had a battle power of "about 1,500" in Namek. I think everybody agrees that Kuririn didn't had even half of Nappa's battle power at that point (to make things worse, guys in this thread says Nappa had almost 8,000). As you can see, these "battle power rules" aren't stable as you guys makes is feels like.



Now I have something else to add to the "Nappa vs Goku" subject (this thread should be split don't?)

Look at these pages:

Take a look at what happened in the second page. Goku was standing right in the front of Nappa (as seen in the prior page), still Nappa can't even see Goku movements right in front of him.

What was Goku battle power at that point?

Take a look at the first page. Vegeta says Goku's battle power was "steadily increasing". And 7 pages of Goku getting more angrier, Vegeta finally exclaim "Battle power 7,000... 8,000...!!" meaning that when Goku dodged Nappa's attack (to the point Nappa couldn't even see) Goku battle power should be slight over 5,000.

(I am not that sure about how having your power supressed affect your performance, however I believe this is at least worth to note)

[Kaboom]

Good point. I think Gohan vs Vegeta is still a good example, though. Even if we don't have actual numbers for them, the difference must surely be huge. But Kuririn vs Nappa is even better. Not to mention that Kuririn had both the element of surprise and the natural advantage of a smaller and more nimble body. Two more factors unrelated to power that allowed him to fight so well.

[SuperForteX]

So did Vegeta... he got the upper-hand against the 24,000 Kamehame-ha, and survived the 32,000 one. However I don't see anyone arguing that Vegeta is not at 18,000

Vegeta stated Goku's attack was like his own, hence it must have rated higher than 18,000. And since Vegeta is stronger to begin with, it probably rates even higher. As for surviving the 32,000 one, yes, but not without taking heavy damage... enough so where he had to transform.

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

Exactly. There are no such strict rules.

It may not be defined, but there's consistent examples of it. Vegeta vs Dodoria and Vegeta vs Zarbon being prime examples. Vegeta vs Kiwi being another. Your power doesn't have to be that much higher than someone until they become useless.

There's been a good handful of instances where much weaker characters have been able to put up a fight, when the numbers would suggest such a thing should be impossible.

Well you say there's been a 'good handful', but then you go on to list only one questionable example. What are some other examples of it happening?

... Gohan ... manages to hold off Vegeta

Vegeta's seriously weakened by this point. He took Kaio Ken x3 Goku's attacks, and ate the Kaio ken x4 Kamehameha directly. Then he made his power ball, then he got shot in the eye, and lastly he lost his tail. The latter probably takin the most strength away from him.

Now Vegeta has lost some amount of power at this point due to taking hits from Goku and using the Power Ball to transform, but how much weaker could he be, really? Maybe about 10,000 at the lowest? Compared to Gohan who's, like... 2000-3000?

It's just semantics at this point. It helps your case more to have Vegeta lose less power, it helps my case more to have Vegeta lose massive power. It's not defined how much power he lost, so it could go either way.

Gohan's not even that angry

... um, he's plenty angry at this point. Enough to sustain the level Piccolo had hinted at, where he fights at a constant rate, rather than have one powerful outburst and then immediatly dropping back down. The culmination of Piccolo's death and the desperation of his desire to protect his father and the Earth have driven Gohan to the pinnacle of his power at this moment, and he's fighting for keeps!

In case nobody's noticed how the manga practically screams this at us: numbers aren't everything. Factors such as skill, mindset, and sheer determination can make a world of difference.

Didn't Akira Toriyama himself say the secret of winning battles in Dragon Ball is the size and control of one's ki? That means battle power... yeah, he says this in Super Exciting Guide Characters I believe.

However, here is a better example:

Kuririn eventually was defeated. However in these two pages Kuririn might even have done better than Nappa did against Goku.

... This was Krillin's surprise attack. Vegeta says that anyone can be vulnerable when their guard is down, moments after he knocked Goku out in the Buu saga. Also I point you towards Cell's attack wounding Gohan. When you guard is down, of course you're going to get hurt. As for Krillin dodging Nappa's one attack, it's because he anticipated it ahead of time. In the very panel you show on that page, Krillin sees Nappa get his footing back, has the "!!" spark, which indicates he understands what he's seeing. Thus, he knew an attack was coming and bailed. It also doesn't help your case that Krillin can sense Ki, and Nappa cannot. I believe it was Goku with Trunks who alluded to sensing the animosity in one's aura?

Goku was standing right in the front of Nappa (as seen in the prior page), still Nappa can't even see Goku movements right in front of him.

Utterly irrelevant. This is Nappa before he got serious, and no one is arguing that pre-serious Nappa isn't outclassed by Son Goku.

[Fox666]

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

Exactly. There are no such strict rules.

It may not be defined, but there's consistent examples of it. Vegeta vs Dodoria and Vegeta vs Zarbon being prime examples. Vegeta vs Kiwi being another. Your power doesn't have to be that much higher than someone until they become useless.

Except in Goku Kaio-ken x4 vs Vegeta case...

... This was Krillin's surprise attack. Vegeta says that anyone can be vulnerable when their guard is down, moments after he knocked Goku out in the Buu saga. Also I point you towards Cell's attack wounding Gohan. When you guard is down, of course you're going to get hurt. As for Krillin dodging Nappa's one attack, it's because he anticipated it ahead of time. In the very panel you show on that page, Krillin sees Nappa get his footing back, has the "!!" spark, which indicates he understands what he's seeing. Thus, he knew an attack was coming and bailed. It also doesn't help your case that Krillin can sense Ki, and Nappa cannot. I believe it was Goku with Trunks who alluded to sensing the animosity in one's aura?

So you have a thousand reasons why Kuririn can match against someone almost at 8,000 (according to you) but you think it's impossible for Nappa fight Goku for 1 page with only 4,000?

Utterly irrelevant. This is Nappa before he got serious, and no one is arguing that pre-serious Nappa isn't outclassed by Son Goku.

What difference it makes if Nappa was "serious" or not, if he can't even see a guy with slight over 5,000 at best moving right in front of him?

[Kaboom]

It may not be defined, but there's consistent examples of it. Vegeta vs Dodoria and Vegeta vs Zarbon being prime examples. Vegeta vs Kiwi being another. Your power doesn't have to be that much higher than someone until they become useless.

I am so tired of hearing these cited as if they're super-concrete proof of anything.

1. Kwi was an over-confident idiot who became desperate and foolish once Vegeta had him over-powered.
2. Dodoria was complacent and sloppy. He got so freaked out over Vegeta's barely-higher power reading that he likewise became desperate, trying to bargain and plead with him. Vegeta actually finished him off while he was flying away in terror.
3. Zarbon is a prissy-boy who's reluctant to get his clothes wet and didn't cut loose until he transformed.

What made a big difference in all three of these battles was that Vegeta not only had a power advantage, however big or small it may have been, but he also had the advantage in mindset and skill. He's a confident and seasoned warrior who's constantly refining his abilities on the front lines, whereas all three of the cronies he wiped out were lazy and dulled, letting themselves be content as Freeza's lap-dogs and never doing anything but picking on weaklings.

All three of them likewise trusted too much in scouter readings as well. When you've got it so deeply ingrained in your mind that 'higher battle power' = 'sure win no matter what,' then of course you're not going to be mentally prepared for what would be a difficult uphill battle. "Oh no, his numerical power rating is 10% higher than mine! I'm doomed! DOOOOOOMED~!" But actually try, and do your best, and you might accomplish something.

That's why Vegeta beat Zarbon and Dodoria so easily. Not JUST because of his power, and a small handful of battles where the losers were freaked out by the winner's mind games does not a "rule" of power comparison make. There's far more variety in who can fight whom, as demonstrated by these various Saiyan-arc battles that Fox666 and I are posting about, than such a strict system would allow for. But of course, understanding this viewpoint requires taking off the proverbial Scouter and having a more healthy and relaxed outlook regarding power levels.

Let me put it this way: If Vegeta were fighting an exact copy of himself with the power of Zarbon or Dodoria, do you think he would have won so easily?

Vegeta says that anyone can be vulnerable when their guard is down, moments after he knocked Goku out in the Buu saga.

Exactly. Surprise is one of many non-power elements that can make a big difference in battle. Surprise. Not power.

Numbers aren't everything. I wonder if I should just repeat this at the start or end of all my relevant posts from now on. Or maybe just stick it in my signature. Anything to get that fact to sink in with everyone. Because apparently the constant blaring of it from the manga itself isn't enough.

[jackjack]

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

I don't understand how can anyone say it's purely fanmade when it's shown multiple times in the manga? (Heck, there's even one example of it in the Boo arc.)

Oh, yeah, Nappa was simply taken by surprise; he was attacking Gohan and couldn't sense ki.

[Kaboom]

Examples and implications are in the manga, yes. There are plenty of others to the contrary, all-in-all demonstrating that there's more to battles than mere numbers vs numbers. And NEVER are any of these examples, one way or another, cited or proclaimed as a "rule" of any kind.

Examples one way or another, yes.
Rule, no.

[jackjack]

What made a big difference in all three of these battles was that Vegeta not only had a power advantage, however big or small it may have been, but he also had the advantage in mindset and skill. He's a confident and seasoned warrior who's constantly refining his abilities on the front lines, whereas all three of the cronies he wiped out were lazy and dulled, letting themselves be content as Freeza's lap-dogs and never doing anything but picking on weaklings.

And then, the "lazy and dulled" monster Zarbon that couldn't have possibly been over 30k or so almost mudered the 24k Vegeta in yet another example (along with Goku > Recoome > Vegeta). I'm sure Vegeta's "advantage in mindset and skill" made the difference between life and death for him in that battle, though.

Surprise is one of many non-power elements that can make a big difference in battle. Surprise. Not power.

How can surprise make a big difference when you're simply not strong enough to inflict any significant damage? It can make a difference, sure, like distracting your opponents (Piccolo saving Goku from Freeza, base Vegeta saving Goku from 19, kid Trunks saving Vegeta from Boo also come to mind), but not a big one. Power is what decides the outcome of a fight.

Examples and implications are in the manga, yes. There are plenty of others to the contrary,

But nothing concrete like ones we can provide, where levels for both combatants can be factually proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and they certainly don't come close to refuting our examples.

all-in-all demonstrating that there's more to battles than mere numbers vs numbers.

However, what we're shown is that if you have more power, you win, in just about any fight minus Raditz's (due to the Piccolo's Makankosappo). As simple as that.

And NEVER are any of these examples, one way or another, cited or proclaimed as a "rule" of any kind.

Still though, nothing indicates it should work differently, and events in the manga are heavily in favor of it being the case. A 2x power advantage is more than enough to completely dominate your opponents with ease, which is never contradicted. Even in the Boo arc, it still seemingly works that way in the two fights between Gohan and Super Boo 1/2.

[Kaboom]

And then, the "lazy and dulled" monster Zarbon that couldn't have possibly been over 30k or so almost mudered the 24k Vegeta in yet another example (along with Goku > Reccome > Vegeta). I'm sure Vegeta's "advantage in mindset and skill" made the difference between life and death for him in that battle, though.

This is still a matter of mindset just as much as power, and kind of the equal and opposite of how Vegeta beat Zarbon and Dodoria easily. Vegeta tends to become TOO confident whenever he has the edge in battle, only to fall apart and panic once he loses it. It's a big part of his character and happens constantly.

How can surprise make a big difference when you're simply not strong enough to inflict any significant damage? It can make a difference, sure, like distracting your opponents (Piccolo saving Goku from Freeza, base Vegeta saving Goku from 19, kid Trunks saving Vegeta from Boo also come to mind), but not a big one. Power is what decides the outcome of a fight.

Surprise can allow for things like setting up for a strategy, or leading into a powerful attack, or even just creating an opening for someone stronger than you to help. It's what would have ultimately allowed Kuririn, Piccolo, and Gohan to deal some serious damage to Nappa with their three-point plan, had Gohan not chickened out.

But nothing concrete like ones we can provide, where levels for both combatants can be factually proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and they certainly don't come close to refuting our examples...
...Still though, nothing indicates it should work differently, and events in the manga are heavily in favor of it being the case.

Which is all well and good enough to label it as a trend, or "the usual case," but still nothing claims that there can't be exceptions to that trend with the right circumstances. It's still not a "rule," and has yet to be stated as one anywhere. Hence nothing is "impossible." An official listing of 'character with a battle power of <insert number>' is not justified in being labeled by fans as "impossible" just because it doesn't fit the usual trend.

"It's a trend, not a rule." That's ultimately all I'm saying.

However, what we're shown is that if you have more power, you win, in just about any fight minus Raditz's (due to the Piccolo's Makankosappo).

And the time when Goku was beating Android 19 around but then his heart disease and Android 19's absorption got the best of him.
And the time when Piccolo was an even match for or even stronger than Android 17 but ended up doomed to lose because of 17's infinite stamina.
And the time when Vegeta's Final Flash blasted away half of Cell's torso but Vegeta still lost because Cell could regenerate.
And the time when Trunks' speed was killed from his bulk despite his power being greater than Cell's.
And the time when Goku should have killed Cell but Cell regenerated with the power of a plot hole.
And the time when Cell reverted to his Semiperfect form but still could have killed everybody with his self-destruction.
And all those times when Majin Boo was blown to pieces but still won because he could regenerate.
Oh, and that time when Goku's own transformation worked against him and drained his power away before he could use it to finish off Kid Boo.

Attitude, time, stamina, speed, circumstance, teamwork, regeneration, determination, special powers, and good old-fashioned luck... All these things can and often do affect battles just as much as raw power.

Nothing is definite. Anything can end up as an exception. I hope somebody manages to grasp this key point.

[Fox666]

Should I remind that rules such as "character A needs 75% of B's power to have a battle" are purely fan-made?

I don't understand how can anyone say it's purely fanmade when it's shown multiple times in the manga? (Heck, there's even one example of it in the Boo arc.)

Where was it shown in the manga? As far I am concerned, a character and fight another depending on Toriyama's mood, not of pre-estabilished "battle powers".

We have Vegeta killing Cui with the simpliest Kiai from his fingers despite the small difference in battle power values. Why didn't he used that against Goku, who had less than half of Vegeta's strength? It would be a certain death for Goku

[Piccolo Daimao]

So, we're back to the whole "Does 4,000 make sense for Nappa?" topic. *sigh*

Why would you sigh? We're on the In-Universe sub board, sorry people enjoy talking about this stuff.

Because it's one of the topics that pop up frequently, end up going around in circles and cause hostility.

[SuperForteX]

Hm, the debate is getting a little convoluted since it's with multiple people. I'm going to try to clean my responses up a bit from here on out, so it won't just appear to be 'snippets of quotes from other peoples posts', I'll add the context in too, in bracers. Also I'm currently in a GMT+4:30 timezone, so that's also why my replies come late at night for you guys. Don't want it to seem like I'm trying to sneak a last word in or anything like that. This is the morning for me.

[Context: me saying your power doesn't have to be much higher than someone before they become useless against you] Except in Goku Kaio-ken x4 vs Vegeta case...

There's no exception here. Goku's attack destroyed Vegeta's, and blew Vegeta away. Vegeta became useless in regards to offering resistance to Goku.

[Context: after my explanation of why Krillin was able to hit Nappa] So you have a thousand reasons why Kuririn can match against someone almost at 8,000 (according to you) but you think it's impossible for Nappa fight Goku for 1 page with only 4,000?

Not 'a thousand' reasons, just the one, which I already cited and provided examples from elsewhere in the manga to support-- Nappa was off guard. It's as simple as that. It's the second time Nappa's been knocked off his feet by a surprise attack for that matter.

As for Nappa being nearly 8,000... he wasn't at that time, which brings me to my next big point...

What difference it makes if Nappa was "serious" or not

Those of us who believe Nappa's max power was that high, also believe he didn't reach that level until after Vegeta told him to check his temper. Nappa grins, powers up with an aura, launches his attack at Goku, then flies towards Goku with the aura still lit. Nappa's power changes at this point in the battle, is our argument. I had thought that most understood this, but now I see I should have established it to begin with.

This is why 5k Goku was able to make sport of Nappa, but later 8k Goku is finding himself in an evenly matched struggle. It seems too obvious from my prespective.

I am so tired of hearing these cited as if they're super-concrete proof of anything.

The thing is, they're examples in which we know more or less the numbers of battle powers for one or both warriors, which is why they're some of the strongest examples of the Breakpoint rule that we have.

1. Kwi was an over-confident idiot who became desperate and foolish once Vegeta had him over-powered.

Yet desperation and foolishness has nothing to do with Kiwi's ability to see Vegeta move, which was established that he could not, when Vegeta appeared behind him declaring that with increased battle power, he had increased speed.

2. Dodoria was complacent and sloppy. He got so freaked out over Vegeta's barely-higher power reading that he likewise became desperate, trying to bargain and plead with him. Vegeta actually finished him off while he was flying away in terror

Again, Dodoria's complacency and sloppiness has nothing to do with the fact that Vegeta was shown taking his backside beyond Dodoria's ability Perception Level, as well as stopping Dodoria's attacks (catches Dodoria's fist easily, jumps over his kick), and being able to hold Dodoria in a grip from which he could not escape. How does being cowardly and incompetant suddenly equate to not fighting at full power? Vegeta man-handled him before he stopped resisting, just as much as he did after he stopped resisting.

3. Zarbon is a prissy-boy who's reluctant to get his clothes wet and didn't cut loose until he transformed.

What evidence is there for this? Zarbon wasn't in danger of getting wet until the very end of the battle... there's nothing to indicate that Zarbon wasn't fighting at his fullest when he engaged Vegeta, else he would not have been drawn so surprised that Vegeta was doing the things he was doing.

What made a big difference in all three of these battles was that Vegeta not only had a power advantage, however big or small it may have been, but he also had the advantage in mindset and skill.

Yet none of the significant actions I'm citing in any of my examples had anything to do with anyone's psychological state.

That's why Vegeta beat Zarbon and Dodoria so easily. Not JUST because of his power

Yet Vegeta directly attributes the victories to his increased power, especially when he's marveling over his defeat of Dodoria.

Let me put it this way: If Vegeta were fighting an exact copy of himself with the power of Zarbon or Dodoria, do you think he would have won so easily?

I absolutely do. Based on what I saw happen in those battles. Vegeta simply was too fast for them to see, let alone fight against. Not to mention, I still don't understand how your psychological explanation accounts for them being broken into pieces from Vegeta's attacks.

Exactly. Surprise is one of many non-power elements that can make a big difference in battle. Surprise. Not power.

It didn't make a big difference though. It momentarily stunned Nappa. Same thing happened with Gohan and 2nd Supression Freeza. At the end, the bad guy dusts themself off, and continues to fight as though it didn't happen. Why? Because even with surprise, you can't cause any real damage.

Numbers aren't everything.

But they're a hell of a lot. And Akira Toriyama said as much in his Super Exciting Guide interview about what the key to winning battles was. He said absolutely nothing about skill or cunning, he talked about the size of your ki (ie battle power)

I wonder if I should just repeat this at the start or end of all my relevant posts from now on. Or maybe just stick it in my signature. Anything to get that fact to sink in with everyone. Because apparently the constant blaring of it from the manga itself isn't enough.

Ok... now you're just being condescending. Would you please tone it down a bit, because I'm trying to conduct myself in a civil, profesional manner here, and this is just insulting. Furthermore, even long after "numbers" went away, "power" difference remained in place, with the same rules applying throughout the rest of the manga. If Character A is stronger than Character B, even without power level numbers, Character A always wins. And you'll be hardpressed to provide examples of Character B truly winning over Character A from the manga. The strongest win in Dragon Ball.

And the time when Goku was beating Android 19 around but then his heart disease and Android 19's absorption got the best of him.

Goku was having a heart attack... You can't possibly be using this as an example...

And the time when Piccolo was an even match for or even stronger than Android 17 but ended up doomed to lose because of 17's infinite stamina.

That's not an example in your favor though, as Piccolo began to lose as his strength dropped, before such they were dead even as established, and unable to damage eachother.

And the time when Vegeta's Final Flash blasted away half of Cell's torso but Vegeta still lost because Cell could regenerate.

Which Cell let happen, to mock Vegeta, as shown when he smiles and tells Vegeta that it was a ruse, before promptly regenerating and stomping Vegeta into the dirt.

And the time when Trunks' speed was killed from his bulk despite his power being greater than Cell's.

A special case scenario unique to the form Trunks had taken on...

And the time when Goku should have killed Cell but Cell regenerated with the power of a plot hole.

At the level Cell was fighting at, the Kamehameha simply had enough power to damage him. Your examples of super attacks, like the last one with Vegeta, is not really too much in your favor either, since it's well established that these attacks rate so much higher in strength...

And the time when Cell reverted to his Semiperfect form but still could have killed everybody with his self-destruction.

Easily from destroying the planet, I'm not one to think it would have killed them instantly.

And all those times when Majin Boo was blown to pieces but still won because he could regenerate.

Buu overwhelmed his opponents in strength too, not just his ability to regerate. As for Goku vs Kid Buu, that fight was dead even, again, based on strength level... With Vegetto vs Buu, it's revealed Vegetto toyed with him on purpose, and demonstrated the ability to wipe Buu out in a single attack if he chose to do so.

Oh, and that time when Goku's own transformation worked against him and drained his power away before he could use it to finish off Kid Boo.

... and this has what to do with Goku's preformance against Buu prior to that happening??

Attitude, time, stamina, speed, circumstance, teamwork, regeneration, determination, special powers, and good old-fashioned luck... All these things can and often do affect battles just as much as raw power.

Yet you still haven't shown me a weaker opponent beating a stronger opponent in any of those examples above. All of them have some glaring reason why what happened, happened. No one in Dragon Ball just randomly busts out a W against someone who overwhelms them in strength.

Nothing is definite. Anything can end up as an exception.

That's my whole point. These that you listed are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. To even call it an exception implies that the rule indeed exists!

I hope somebody manages to grasp this key point.

I really can't tell at this point, if you're simply so emotionally invested to get mad and say condsecending things, or if you really look down on us, but please... can you let up on this kind of comment? There's no place for this stuff in an intelligent discussion. Never assume we aren't capable of 'grasping' what you're claiming, simply because we don't agree with it.

[Kaboom]

I'm sorry if any of my comments came off as brusque, but I'm just trying to be honest and am tired of mincing words. I'm so sick of the same old "it's all about numbers vs numbers!" bullcrap I keep hearing in debates elsewhere and now here as well recently. It's not a healthy or worthwhile way to look at the series. Turning everything into a damned math equation cheapens the value of the story.

[SuperForteX]

That's what I'm trying to explain though: based on overwhelming evidence, it's not bull crap. That the rule has exceptions doens't prove it's not a rule.

[Kaboom]

Then show me anywhere, in the manga or guidebooks, where any such specific "minimum range" was listed or stated. We've gotten so much information in the various extra guidebooks over the years on this subject; more numerical battle powers, transformation and Fusion multipliers, info about training methods and how one's Ki is built and increased... but NEVER has anything given us some quote of, "you have to at least be at THIS percent of your opponent's power to even put up a fight."

Why?

Because there is no such "rule" for power match-ups. EVERYONE who discusses power levels needs to get this into their skulls.

Even if it typically comes down to "the stronger guy wins," things still fluctuate from battle to battle based on a wealth of different factors. So Nappa can be at 4000 and barely put up a decent fight for two pages against Goku's 8000 if the guidebook's creators say he can. A battle between two other completely different characters with completely different circumstances happening completely differently does not somehow negate this.

THAT is my point. Yes, battles almost always boil down to "who's stronger." Obviously. But there is no strict limitation to how high or low one must be to put up a fight or have a chance of winning. There never has been. Because it's not ENTIRELY about power.

Toriyama knew this when he wrote the story. The guidebook's writers knew this when they decided on some extra official battle powers. The only ones who can't seem get the idea are the handful of obsessed fans who can't stop looking at things through a scouter.

Determination. Willpower. Love. Friendship. Effort. Intelligence. THESE are the "heroic" and "shonen" ideals that drive the characters and upon which the series is built. Instead I'm being told, "well, if the hero is at 4, and the bad guy is at 5... then sorry, he's doomed."

Screw that noise, I don't believe a word of it.

[SuperForteX]

... Nappa can be at 4000 and barely put up a decent fight for two pages against Goku's 8000 if the guidebook's creators say he can.

Is this really what it boils down to for you? I had suspected at least some of the 4000 supporters were doing so simply out of faith to the book, and twisting everything that we see in the manga to account for it.

However, Nappa didn't only "barely" put up that fight, and both Vegeta and Goku knew and stated that the battle could have lasted "all day".

Goku: He's tougher than I thought, this could take forever without using Kaioken

Vegeta: Stand down, Nappa, this could take all day with you

You're labeling Nappa's increased preformance as a freak occurance that happened for a moment only... such is not the case, based on what we see and hear from the characters in the story... THIS is why the 4000 is impossible.

And I think both of us got too off track trying to prove or disprove the whole breakpoint rule. And as little as you believe in the so-called rule, we're not talking about someone who's 10% stronger or even 15%... if the Daizenshuu's number's hold true... then Goku is double Nappa's strength.

Even allowing for your explanation of the whole theme of shonen emotions motivating a character beyond numbers, that would never account for someone being able to fight at length with a character twice their strength.

It simply doesn't add up, and it'd be the only example in the entirety of Dragon Ball of such ever happening.

Why didn't Goku's 'compassion and love' allow him to stand back up and continue fighting Piccolo Daimao? Why did he need to train and drink the Super God Water before facing him again? Why didn't it allow him to save his best friend from Freeza's clutches?

Why couldn't Goku's 'determination' allow him to fight against Buu without fusing with Vegeta?

Strength does matter in Dragon Ball.
Again, you're dwelling too much on the numbers thing. It was Turlast who brought up this 10% crap. Even though I believe it's true, the fact is, we're looking at a MUCH wider margin here.

4000 vs 8000. I mean, seriously? Sorry man, I just don't buy it.

To quote you, "screw that noise, I don't believe a word of it."

[Kaboom]

I rest my case.

[SuperForteX]

So be it.