Pronunciation of "Saiyan"

[TripleRach]

That doesn't answer my question as to why there's no macron over the "o" when there almost always is in Romanization of Japanese. There's nothing to indicate it should be pronounced with a long "o".

That depends on what you mean by "long O," because I'm thinking of at least two definitions.

When romanizing Japanese, macrons indicate double length vowels, as an alternative to writing the vowel twice. (The actual vowel sound is the same, but you speak it longer.) Like for the main character guy, accurate raw romanizations of his name would be Gokū (with macron) or Gokuu (without macron). O is a very common double vowel sound in Japanese, so I guess you might see a lot of Ōs out there, but not all O sounds in Japanese are double length. "Son" has only a single length O sound.

Which brings me to another meaning of "long O"... In English, that term can refer to the O sound in the word "road," while the O sound in the word "rod" is considered a "short O" sound. The Japanese O is always more like the O sound in "road" (without getting into all the crazy details from the Toei thread), but when it's not doubled the sound is a lot quicker and shorter than we typically use in English.

[Rocketman]

Do you say "Croissant" "Kroys-aynt"? Or "Kross-Ahnt"? You say it the 2nd way, because it's a FRENCH WORD.

New Orleans (Fr: "Or-lee-on"). Paris (Fr: "Pahree"). France (Fr: "Frahns").

Son Goku's name is Japanese name, you say it the Japanese way.

Caesar (Latin: "Kai-zar"). Zeus (Gr: "Zefs").


I have an itching suspicion this is far more MY ANIMES than desire for accuracy in pronunciation of words that cross languages.

[Taku128]

Except pronouncing "Gokuu" as "Gowku" has nothing to do with accent, and everything to do with misreading the word and then refusing to pronounce it correctly after being told you're wrong.

This has always seemed like splitting hairs to me. At some point the difference is a tiny change that just makes the word not sound completely out of place in an otherwise English sentence. Gowku versus Gokuu has nothing to do with pronunciation and everything to do with emphasis, and it's a type of emphasis that just sounds completely unnatural in an English sentence. It's not like Saiyan versus Seiyan where it's blatantly incorrect, it's just Americans putting emphasis on a different syllable because that's how English generally rolls.

[Son Goshen]

I guess I find it pretty interesting that despite never watching the English dub, you're unsure about the pronunciation. Where are you hearing people speak it aloud incorrectly, then?

The topic creator speaking here! I hear my friends say "say-an", though I have no idea where they picked that up from, since all of us either watched the Chinese dub (it's very accurate) or watch the Chinese sub...

So, in conclusion, the correct pronunciation is "sigh-an", but many people are just used to saying "say-an" because of the English dub?

I understand what Mike was saying (in his first post) since I know a bit of Japanese, but thinking back at this question made me realize that it's like the correct pronunciation of manga, where you should say the "man" the way you say kong in king kong, but Americans just pronounce it as "main-ga" instead...

[Ashura]

Personally, I've heard stuff like magna and magma before. So long as you have the order of the letters right, you're cool by me.

Suncoast used to be awesome. Do you have any Azumanga Diego? Love Highna?

[TripleRach]

I have an itching suspicion this is far more MY ANIMES than desire for accuracy in pronunciation of words that cross languages.

It's one thing to point out hypocrisy, but seriously, don't turn this into a "weeaboo" thing.

[Savage68]

This has always seemed like splitting hairs to me. At some point the difference is a tiny change that just makes the word not sound completely out of place in an otherwise English sentence. Gowku versus Gokuu has nothing to do with pronunciation and everything to do with emphasis, and it's a type of emphasis that just sounds completely unnatural in an English sentence. It's not like Saiyan versus Seiyan where it's blatantly incorrect, it's just Americans putting emphasis on a different syllable because that's how English generally rolls.

I dunno, it seems to me that Goku's name is one of only a few exceptions. My friend and I are (or in my case, was) used to pronouncing the name as Funimation's dub pronounces it, but when it comes to characters' names like Ryu, Kyo and Iori... the emphasis is never placed on the first syllable. I think the discrepancy has to do what we were most familiar with. I never heard another English Dragon Ball fan say "Kai-Oh-Ken" until Funimation's actors started to do so, and I'm sure it's just a matter of familiarity to people.

For another example, take my younger brother. He's only familiar with Bleach through the (sometimes mind-numbingly) true-to-the-original-version English dub of the anime, and so he pronounces "Ichigo Kurosaki" with much more precision than I would. The r sounds sorta like a d and all. But he wouldn't pronounce, say "Doctor Gero" hardly the same way, because he doesn't hear any other English-speakers pronouncing it that way.

[Adamant]

All I've said is that I'm going to pronounce "Son Goku" the way it looks, even if it is incorrect, which I'm sure it is.

No, in your first post you went on about being incapable of pronouncing the name correctly because of your American accent. When it was pointed out that there's nothing about the American accent that should hinder the pronunciation in any way, and you no doubt pronounce a lot of similarly-pronounced words correctly, you switched over to "ok, I'm capable of pronouncing it right, but I just don't want to for some reason".

Gowku versus Gokuu has nothing to do with pronunciation and everything to do with emphasis, and it's a type of emphasis that just sounds completely unnatural in an English sentence. It's not like Saiyan versus Seiyan where it's blatantly incorrect, it's just Americans putting emphasis on a different syllable because that's how English generally rolls.

If his name was Bob Peru, would you place the emphasis on the first syllable in "Peru" too?

[TonyTheTiger]

Suncoast used to be awesome. Do you have any Azumanga Diego? Love Highna?

Bahahaha. That made me bust a gut because I have experiences like that, too. I read a review in Game Informer for Ar Tonelico on the PS2 and on a whim went to buy it. Having only first read about it that day, I'm in GameStop and was like "Do you have...uh...Ar...Tone-uh...leeco?" The guy looks at me, "Uh...how do you spell it?" And I'm like, "Spell it? I can barely say it."

I'm not incredibly picky with regards to how people say things in terms of vowel emphasis. How many of us are familiar with the Street Fighter character "Rye-yoo"? How about asking somebody to say "Tatsumaki Senpu Kyakuu"? Shit, the games themselves can barely get that out. I write most of it off as an understandable side effect of a large populace and sometimes an ultimate lack of direction when seeing things written in print without clear cues. And this isn't just limited to stuff from Japan. Ask 100 people to say Ra's Al Ghul or Mr. Mxyzptlk. Hell, the Batman productions themselves aren't consistent with "Ra's" which only exacerbates the problem. And there are at least a dozen different pronunciations of "Mxyzptlk" among all the people who work on Superman.

As for the topic, I'm going to echo what was said earlier. Is it technically "sigh-an"? Yes. But is "Say-an" deeply ingrained in English DBZ? Absolutely. Am I guilty of falling in line with the "sheep" and accepting that pronunciation in my daily use? Yes. There's so much water under the bridge that it's almost bullish to try to force a change. It'd be like if Capcom decided to start calling the dictator in Street Fighter "Vega" in North America or started using "Rockman." Or, to reverse it, if Hasbro/Takara decided to change "Convoy" into "Optimus Prime" in Japan.

Sega tried to do this kind of thing with Dr. Robotnik, forcefeeding "Eggman" to everybody about 10 years ago. It didn't quite work and now we have Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik. Konami actually tried to start using "Castlevania" instead of "Akumajo Dracula" in Japan in order to "unite the series under one title" or some such. Which is especially unique since "Akumajo Dracula" came first. It was also only marginally successful, though.

We can talk about technicalities (which is fine, of course, since that's what communities like this are all about) but, after a certain amount of time passes and things mature into their own becoming a part of pop culture, things just...become what they are. And if you try to change things after that event horizon you end up with a broken base which ends up hurting everybody in the long run.

Had FUNi started using "sigh-an" when they changed dub casts like they started using "kai-oh-ken" instead of "kay-o-ken" I guarantee "sigh-an" would be the generally accepted pronunciation in America. Because the change would have come before the series popularity exploded which was before that "point of no return" so to speak. Yeah, some of us who were waking up at ridiculous hours on Sunday morning would have noticed the shift but most people would not have. But now? It's way too late.

[roidrage]

All I've said is that I'm going to pronounce "Son Goku" the way it looks, even if it is incorrect, which I'm sure it is.

No, in your first post you went on about being incapable of pronouncing the name correctly because of your American accent. When it was pointed out that there's nothing about the American accent that should hinder the pronunciation in any way, and you no doubt pronounce a lot of similarly-pronounced words correctly, you switched over to "ok, I'm capable of pronouncing it right, but I just don't want to for some reason".

Gowku versus Gokuu has nothing to do with pronunciation and everything to do with emphasis, and it's a type of emphasis that just sounds completely unnatural in an English sentence. It's not like Saiyan versus Seiyan where it's blatantly incorrect, it's just Americans putting emphasis on a different syllable because that's how English generally rolls.

If his name was Bob Peru, would you place the emphasis on the first syllable in "Peru" too?

I never said I was "incapable", I just said I preferred not to because the accent makes it way more trouble than it's worth. There is something about the American accent that hinders "Gokuu" in ways that it doesn't hinder "Peru". You can say "Peru" without suddenly having this Japanese accent; you can't do that with "Gokuu".

"Peru" and "Goku" are two totally different things. You can't compare the two; "Peru" rolls off the tongue in such a way you pretty much have to emphasize the second syllable, whereas "Goku" sounds more like you should pronounce the first syllable. I agree with Taku128.

[Adamant]

I never said I was "incapable", I just said I preferred not to because the accent makes it way more trouble than it's worth. There is something about the American accent that hinders "Gokuu" in ways that it doesn't hinder "Peru". You can say "Peru" without suddenly having this Japanese accent; you can't do that with "Gokuu".

"Peru" and "Goku" are two totally different things. You can't compare the two; "Peru" rolls off the tongue in such a way you pretty much have to emphasize the second syllable, whereas "Goku" sounds more like you should pronounce the first syllable. I agree with Taku128.

"Goku got a cuckoo clock".

Read that sentence aloud, without deliberate mispronunciation.

Yeah.

[roidrage]

I never said I was "incapable", I just said I preferred not to because the accent makes it way more trouble than it's worth. There is something about the American accent that hinders "Gokuu" in ways that it doesn't hinder "Peru". You can say "Peru" without suddenly having this Japanese accent; you can't do that with "Gokuu".

"Peru" and "Goku" are two totally different things. You can't compare the two; "Peru" rolls off the tongue in such a way you pretty much have to emphasize the second syllable, whereas "Goku" sounds more like you should pronounce the first syllable. I agree with Taku128.

"Goku got a cuckoo clock".

Read that sentence aloud, without deliberate mispronunciation.

Yeah.

Pardon me for being so thick-headed, but would you mind explaining what you're talking about rather than being wise-ass sarcastic and expecting me to "get" it?

Is your point that "Gokuu" can roll of the tongue as easily in English as "cuckoo"? Which makes me wonder; how are you pronouncing "cuckoo" anyway?" Are you saying "koo-koo" or "koo-koo", with the emphasis on the second "koo"?

[roidrage]

The "ego" thing seems really out of left-field (when do I take a position that I "expect" everyone to know everything about me and how I do things? Isn't my long explanation in the second post of this thread showcasing how to pronounce Japanese syllables the exact opposite of that? How could it possibly have been any more kind and comprehensive?

Maybe it's because when someone raises the legitimate point of "Why should we care when we're talking in English, not Japanese?" you pretty much roll your eyes and say, "Well, gee, why don't I just call the characters by different names then, because that's the same thing."

I don't know whether you have an ego or not, because I don't know you, but based on some of your posts and podcasts, you seem to have a really low tolerance for people who won't do things your way, especially if they're not somehow connected to you, in which case you're more accepting. I'm not saying that's necessarily true, I'm saying that's the impression I get. If that's a wrong impression, so be it, but I would be awful foolish to blindly trust that you don't have an ego solely because you (and all the people who like and agree with you) say you don't. Surely you can understand that.

I'm also not saying you're wrong on this particular issue either; I'm saying that some people, like me, aren't going to do as you do, for a variety of reasons (in my case, it's probably because I secretly despise and envy you and am being defiantly oppositional in order to drive you insane with frustration ).

[Adamant]

Is your point that "Gokuu" can roll of the tongue as easily in English as "cuckoo"? Which makes me wonder; how are you pronouncing "cuckoo" anyway?" Are you saying "koo-koo" or "koo-koo", with the emphasis on the second "koo"?

My point isn't that "Goku" and "cuckoo" are pronounced identically, but that, if you are able to pronounce "cuckoo" (roughly the same sounds) and "Peru" (the same emphasis) correctly, how on earth can you say "Goku" is somehow "unnatural" to pronounce? It's pretty much just those two words combined.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't know whether you have an ego or not, because I don't know you, but based on some of your posts and podcasts, you seem to have a really low tolerance for people who won't do things your way, especially if they're not somehow connected to you, in which case you're more accepting. I'm not saying that's necessarily true, I'm saying that's the impression I get. If that's a wrong impression, so be it, but I would be awful foolish to blindly trust that you don't have an ego solely because you (and all the people who like and agree with you) say you don't. Surely you can understand that.

I may be overstepping my bounds here but I'm going to jump to VegettoEX's defense as somebody who's disagreed with him and others on occasion with respect to a few topics like the dub and general localization techniques. Despite clashing ideas and preferences, I never once got the impression I was being belittled for not "falling in line" with the prevailing, for lack of a better term, "ideology" here. Part of the reason I like this site, beyond just the wealth of information, is because most people here are willing to indulge the discussions without resorting to petty "internet forum behavior" over matters of personal taste and whatever specific niche of the Dragon Ball fandom in which they reside.

But, that being said, people have their opinions and will usually defend them with some kind of evidence or analogy. Taking a strong stance for or against something is not the same as being on an ego trip.

[Rocketman]

I've apparently never pronounced Peru correctly, nor heard it pronounced correctly.

[dbgtFO]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peru
First audio file on page.

[Ashura]

Suncoast used to be awesome. Do you have any Azumanga Diego? Love Highna?

Bahahaha. That made me bust a gut because I have experiences like that, too. I read a review in Game Informer for Ar Tonelico on the PS2 and on a whim went to buy it. Having only first read about it that day, I'm in GameStop and was like "Do you have...uh...Ar...Tone-uh...leeco?" The guy looks at me, "Uh...how do you spell it?" And I'm like, "Spell it? I can barely say it."

Yeah; I figure this is half the reason why they add subtitles to weird-sounding titles nowadays. 'Do you have Ar Tonelico: The Something or Other Legacy?' 'Oh, yeah...'

Sega tried to do this kind of thing with Dr. Robotnik, forcefeeding "Eggman" to everybody about 10 years ago. It didn't quite work and now we have Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik. Konami actually tried to start using "Castlevania" instead of "Akumajo Dracula" in Japan in order to "unite the series under one title" or some such. Which is especially unique since "Akumajo Dracula" came first. It was also only marginally successful, though.

This is one of those instances where I feel that the english name is probably better and more unique. Demon Castle Dracula is about as generic as they come, while Castlevania is actually a very Japanesey conglomeration of two English words. CV unfortunately doesn't do well in Japan, and I think that this name change for the GBA games and the first PS2 game sort of hurt their sales even more.

Another one of those is that I think Resident Evil is probably a better title than Bio Hazard in sort of nailing down the tone of those games.

Chrono Trigger's another good instance of this. They changed a lot of character names around; Mahou became Magus, Jacky became Janus, Sarah became Schala. A lot of the names in the Japanese version were very American sounding names, which probably sounded foreign over there, and in the localization the changes made sense in keeping the tone of the names. I think if they did it very literal that game would've lost a lot of tone.

It's funny, but no one ever targets all the Mario name changes. Bowser, Koopa, Peach, Toadstool, etc. Most of the main characters have had a couple names save for Mario and Luigi (and even Mario was Jumpman at one point), though they've gone and done an Eggman to most of them... except for the enemies. I don't think we'll ever get Kuribo over Goomba... and I think it would be silly if they tried to change it. Sort of like your Street Fighter and Megaman example, those are iconic names in the US.

I guess in Sweden, it would be sort of like taking the familiar Farber Joakim och Knattarna and having Disney suddenly decide that it has to be called 'Uncle Scrooge and His Three Nephews.' worldwide. This is actually the title of Ducktales over there, and the interesting part is the Knattarna part is a collective name for his nephews from what I understand, and isn't exactly translatable.

[Metalwario64]

I don't think we'll ever get Kuribo over Goomba....

Well, we kinda did at one point... in a way. There was "Kuribo's Shoe" in the localized version of the NES Super Mario Bros. 3. I'm sure that there was also "Jugem's Cloud" as well. I'm sure you're aware of that though.

[Cipher]

My point isn't that "Goku" and "cuckoo" are pronounced identically, but that, if you are able to pronounce "cuckoo" (roughly the same sounds) and "Peru" (the same emphasis) correctly, how on earth can you say "Goku" is somehow "unnatural" to pronounce? It's pretty much just those two words combined.

No one can argue that it's unnatural to pronounce on its own, but it definitely is in the example sentence you provided. There's an enormous tendency to stress the "Go" in "Goku" there, and I first read it that way without even thinking about it. Otherwise you're reading the whole thing with "unstressed, stressed" and it's a nightmare. It's not always the case, but most times you place "Goku" in an English sentence, especially at the beginning, the natural tendency will be to stress the first syllable.

And really, we're splitting hairs over where the stress falls in "Goku." It's like forcing another person to adopt the perfect accent when pronouncing a name from another language. Can they do it? Probably, but it's not expected, and it's definitely not natural in the middle of a normal sentence. This is getting ridiculous. Changing an entire syllable "Sigh-yan" vs "Say-yan," you can debate about. Stressing the proper syllable isn't deserving of it.

Another one of those is that I think Resident Evil is probably a better title than Bio Hazard in sort of nailing down the tone of those games.

Now that's a case where I actually wish they would have foregone consistency and just imported the Japanese title. Resident Evil is particularly unfitting for the series. "Resident" obviously applies exclusively to the first game, which takes place in a mansion. But after that, what exactly is the evil a resident of? Resident of a train? Resident of the jungle? "Evil" also has a bit of a supernatural connotation, and obviously the series doesn't go down that road at all. Bio Hazard works well with every entry in the series. There's a spooky biological menace (sometimes zombie viruses, sometimes genetically engineered monsters, whatever) and it's hazardous. Done and done.

Why are we talking about this?