Gogeta's strength

[Fox666]

Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta = Goku * Vegeta. Multiplier of their BPs because the fusees are rivals.

That is just an assumption of the fans. We can't be sure of what kind effect the rivalry thing would have.

The only real difference between Vegetto and Kibitoshin is that fusees Vegetto is made of are rivals. Kibitoshin is obviously not a multiplier of Kaioshin and Kibito's BPs. It's a fan assumption, right, but it's the only logical one if you ask me.

I don't think that is really logical. It looks far-fatched and is only a escape route.

Besides it's not like "rivalry" was ever meant to be taken as an 1+1 attribute, neither it is a solid concept or something you can measure. As far I can tell, the fusion take the best of the two parts, and very different beings get a better result. That's why Vegetto is great and Kaioshin is not.

Why would it be so complicated? I'm up for the simpliest yet most logical theories.

Metamorian Fusion is unmeasurable for us, fans, because we don't know how strong were Goten and Trunks, compared to anyone.
Potara Fusion of Kaioshin and Kibito seems to be pretty weak, yet Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta is incredibly strong. On top of that, it's stated to be a multiplier of their BPs, which contradicts with nothing. Rivalry boost is mentioned. It's a great idea why Vegetto is so strong.

Simple as that.

Dragon Ball is not complicated. We just don't know all the details. Complicated theories are silly.

To tell the truth I think that trying to create a formula for the fusion (i.e. "rivarly boost") is what really makes everything complicated.

The best approach for analysing a fusion is that of a plot device. Fusion works much like saiyans near-death power-ups, a completely random value.

I could too create some kind of formula for near-death power-up like "punch in the stomach = 33x power-up", but the reality is that you can't measure such a thing, and any kind of rule would look too amateur.

[hleV]

To tell the truth I think that trying to create a formula for the fusion (i.e. "rivarly boost") is what really makes everything complicated.

You mad? Rivalry boost = multiplication. No rivalry boost = something else we don't know of.

Give me a better/simplier/more logical theory than this why Vegetto is a multiplier and Kibitoshin is not. Unless you're denying SEG's flat out "Goku x Vegeta BP" statement.

[Fox666]

You mad? Rivalry boost = multiplication. No rivalry boost = something else we don't know of.

Sorry, but for me that's bogus

Give me a better/simplier/more logical theory than this why Vegetto is a multiplier and Kibitoshin is not. Unless you're denying SEG's flat out "Goku x Vegeta BP" statement.

Unfortunately I doubt there really is a good explanation for that. However I doubt "rivalry boost" is the best explanation.

[Kaboom]

Let's take it easy, alright?

Unless I'm mistaken, the "rivalry boost" idea is a concept perpetuated mostly by fans. The part of Elder Kaioshin's explanation about them being rivals was just in regard to how and why the two of them were both so strong individually already. That, in addition to the Potara being an overall more potent method of Fusion than the Dance, was what made Vegetto so strong.

[Fox666]

I apology. Anyway, It seems you are in the right direction

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

It appear to me that the rivarly is not something really important, but another factor. Neither it was the Potara that made Vegetto so great. It was because of Goku and Vegeta being so great.

While I am not sure about anything over this "A x B" formula, based on Rou Kaioshin explanation it would happen that Goku and Vegeta are two great A and B, not that this is an exclusive formula for them.

[hleV]

Thing is, Elder Kaioshin (who is also a fusion) and Kibitoshin are weaklings.

• Elder Kaioshin = A * B? Possible, if the old witch was relatively weak (like weaker than farmer with shotgun).
  Kibitoshin = A * B? Infuckingpossible. Kaioshin is at the very least above Namek arc SS Goku. That multiplied with Kibito's whatever BP would result in a warrior at least thousands of times stronger.
  Vegetto = A * B? Well, it's been stated he is. Now, why? Elder Kaioshin told that Goku and Vegeta are ones of the strongest beings in the universe, and also that they're rivals. Can it be the reason? Hell yes.

But... what is this "rivalry" thing Elder Kaioshin's talking about?

• Is it that Vegeta always tries to catch up with Goku and beat him, while Goku doesn't give up and surpasses his limits?
  Or that their strength is relatively even?
  Some other thing?

How does Elder Kaioshin know that Goku and Vegeta are rivals, anyway?

Or maybe Potara Fusion works like "weaker fusee's BP^2". Since Goku and Vegeta are about even, it happened to be "Goku * Vegeta" or "Goku^2" or "Vegeta^2" (same result). Kibitoshin would still happen to be too strong, though.

[dbgtFO]

Let's take it easy, alright?

Unless I'm mistaken, the "rivalry boost" idea is a concept perpetuated mostly by fans. The part of Elder Kaioshin's explanation about them being rivals was just in regard to how and why the two of them were both so strong individually already. That, in addition to the Potara being an overall more potent method of Fusion than the Dance, was what made Vegetto so strong.

I agree, incidentally while browsing the Ask Daizenshuu EX archives I found, what I think is a pretty good explanation of Elder Kaioshin's quote:

Q. About the Vegetto vs. Gogeta argument: I know it's stated in the manga and anime that Vegetto is strong because of the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta, but what does this mean, exactly? Does this mean the animosity between the two parties makes the fusion stronger, or that since Goku and Vegeta are rivals, they've pushed themselves to the limit (above just about anyone else in existence) to keep up with one another over time, hence resulting in a stronger-than-normal fusion? (sort of like: which would be stronger: A fusion of Winston Churchill and Hitler or a fusion of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan?) Or is it some combination of the two? - Joshua Cochran

http://www.daizex.com/general/ask/archi ... 19.shtml#7

[InfernalVegito]

Why is there then no "rivalry boost" when they fuse to Gogeta? Or did I just misunderstand something?

[dbgtFO]

Why is there then no "rivalry boost" when they fuse to Gogeta? Or did I just misunderstand something?

Well I think "the rivalry boost(assuming it IS a legitimite extra boost)" applies to both characters, since the end result consists of the same two components.

[Fox666]

Thing is, Elder Kaioshin (who is also a fusion) and Kibitoshin are weaklings.

I agree and I understand that. However battle powers doesn't exist anymore as of the Boo saga, so it doesn't need to be perfect in that sense.

[Rocketman]

Vegetto is AxB because he's Vegetto. The other two are something much, much less because fuck them.

[Bussani]

Give me a better/simplier/more logical theory than this why Vegetto is a multiplier and Kibitoshin is not.

Because the ingredients are better and work better together. Them being rivals who've joined forces may be a factor in that, but I doubt it's the only one.