Muten-Roshi weaker than Son Gohan?

[Fox666]

If we go by theories, Goku getting a near-death power-up is more plausible than Cell being taken by surprise by a guy he was looking at...

[Perfect]

If we go by theories, Goku getting a near-death power-up is more plausible than Cell being taken by surprise by a guy he was looking at...

We're not going by theories, so no. Oh gee, just because he saw him at the last second totally means that he wasn't taken by surprise. I guess when Goku vanished in the Cell Games after he charged his Kamehameha and reappeared in front of Cell means Cell wasn't taken by surprise because Cell saw it! I guess this also means when Goku surprised Cell with a strong hit to the back, it wasn't a surprise since quite clearly Cell turned his head at the last second. You've not only proven nothing, but all you've been doing is posting ridiculous claims that have absolutely no purpose.

Goku: What the...

Cell: What?!

-A second or two passes and Cell's kicked in the jaw, rendering him immobile-

Both Goku and Cell are thoroughly confused at what's going on. Like Piccolo Daimao's battle implies, when you're speeding towards an opponent, it takes a moment to slow down and brace yourself. A moment Cell clearly didn't have.

How is that even remotely different from any other example? Oh wait, it isn't.

[Saiga]

It doesn't matter if they're terrible with sparks, there isn't any. Plus there's no indication that they "forgot them", Cell's line suggests there's no need to try against Goku's level of strength. Goku isn't even at a powered up level of SSJ, if we're to even count him at SSJ. So you're saying when you're dead that your maximum amount of chi is your chi that you'll always have? No, of course not. Yes his strength is the same as when he was alive, doesn't mean he powered up to it. Not only are there not any sparks, there's no aura or power up either. Yes, it is fast, hence catching Cell off guard; Pikon clearly had time to charge from behind at Cell and gain momentum to increase his velocity.

It does matter that they are terrible with sparks, because it isn't unlike Toei to completely forget sparks when they should be there. And Goku's in between state is a plot hole, he should be a Super Saiyan. And I'm not saying that in death you're always stuck at maximum strength, but the line could easily be interpreted as saying Cell was at full power

[Perfect]

It doesn't matter if they're terrible with sparks, there isn't any. Plus there's no indication that they "forgot them", Cell's line suggests there's no need to try against Goku's level of strength. Goku isn't even at a powered up level of SSJ, if we're to even count him at SSJ. So you're saying when you're dead that your maximum amount of chi is your chi that you'll always have? No, of course not. Yes his strength is the same as when he was alive, doesn't mean he powered up to it. Not only are there not any sparks, there's no aura or power up either. Yes, it is fast, hence catching Cell off guard; Pikon clearly had time to charge from behind at Cell and gain momentum to increase his velocity.

It does matter that they are terrible with sparks, because it isn't unlike Toei to completely forget sparks when they should be there. And Goku's in between state is a plot hole, he should be a Super Saiyan. And I'm not saying that in death you're always stuck at maximum strength, but the line could easily be interpreted as saying Cell was at full power

How would it be interpreted that he was at full power? He had no aura, no sparks, no prior indication of a power up and no need to be powered up. Toei isn't that stupid you know, plus there's no indication that his sparks were forgotten. No Goku's in between state isn't a "plot hole" seeing that in the next episode preview beforehand shows him as SSJ. His hair was colored black for some reason that's open to interpretation. I like to think it's because Pikon wasn't supposed to know about SSJ, but that's a theory. Not to mention Goku would have powered up had Cell been radiating that amount of power, which one would be able to sense from a vast distance.

[Fox666]

If we go by theories, Goku getting a near-death power-up is more plausible than Cell being taken by surprise by a guy he was looking at...

We're not going by theories, so no. Oh gee, just because he saw him at the last second totally means that he wasn't taken by surprise. I guess when Goku vanished in the Cell Games after he charged his Kamehameha and reappeared in front of Cell means Cell wasn't taken by surprise because Cell saw it! I guess this also means when Goku surprised Cell with a strong hit to the back, it wasn't a surprise since quite clearly Cell turned his head at the last second. You've not only proven nothing, but all you've been doing is posting ridiculous claims that have absolutely no purpose.

Goku: What the...

Cell: What?!

-A second or two passes and Cell's kicked in the jaw, rendering him immobile-

Both Goku and Cell are thoroughly confused at what's going on. Like Piccolo Daimao's battle implies, when you're speeding towards an opponent, it takes a moment to slow down and brace yourself. A moment Cell clearly didn't have.

How is that even remotely different from any other example? Oh wait, it isn't.

Why the hell are you struggling with that? It's just a filler. Most of time they never make sense, they are just intended to waste the time.

Besides, Paikuhan is flying right toward Cell. That's the same "surprise attack" as Vegeta being hit in the face by Recoome's knee. And he finishes off Cell with a second attack, which he didn't even use that flamming attack.

Paikuhan is just that strong (worf effect) until he needs to face off the protagonist.

[Silver Sinspawn]

Cell is dead, he should not have a body to begin with. If that is possible, Yamcha could teleport to Hell, transform in Super Saiyan and defeat Cell that it wouldn't matter.

Super Saiyan Yamcha?

[Fox666]

It could happen in fillers.

[Perfect]

I'm struggling? Oh you're hilarious, I guess no one on the forum can apply logic to filler because Fox66 forbids it! Looks like we have not only a new moderator, but a new rule maker here on Daizex!

He didn't become visible until a few seconds prior, look at the animation. He's rendered unconscious from the first hit anyhow, he's immobilized. So the second hit is irrelevant.

No it couldn't happen in filler, because Toei doesn't recognize their mistakes and then make more mistakes because they think it's okay because they made a mistake prior. Their mistakes are just that, mistakes. They know for a fact that SSJs can only be SSJ, so there'd be no justifiable reason to make that mistake.

[Fox666]

Instead of worrying about Cell strength, may I ask why Goku transformed in Super Saiyan to fight the Ginyu force, if he instantly defeated them in Namek? And why is Goku surprised that Paikuhan took down King Cold, if he just sent Cell flying?

[Perfect]

Because technically he wasn't SSJ, that's also a good theory as to why Toei decided to color his hair in at the last second; complete overkill. Goku being surprised at King Cold being taken down can easily be attributed to the shock from Cell's defeat and Pikon's speed/strength.

[Fox666]

Back to Cell: Paikuhan kick Cell's face, hit him in the back, and while Cell is still conscious he sent him flying in a tornado to a prison. How I am supposed to think Toei did not made him stronger than Cell?

[Perfect]

I've already explained how. His speed allowed him to travel undetected past Goku and straight into Cell's path, giving him no time to react. The second hit doesn't matter because he's immobilized from the first. The tornado doesn't matter either seeing that he's still unable to move, otherwise he would have gotten out of the lake beforehand.

Goku comments on his speed for a reason, because that's the whole reason he was able to cold-clock Cell.

Edit: Cell had more than enough time to move out of the lake, watching it again, it takes Pikon quite some time to make the transition. Pikon is stronger than Cell's suppressed form if that's what you're implying, but he's no where near his full power.

[Fox666]

There is no mention of Paikuhan being able to defeat Cell only because he was taken by surprise. Neither Cell is said to be holding back his power. These are all theories to explain the filler plot-holes.

Besides these are all rules that only apply to the manga, while the anime follow different rules. Supposedly Freeza trusted the Ginyu Tokusentai could defeat Goku, and was surprised he got strong enough to defeat them...

[Perfect]

Uhm, there's no mention of him being able to defeat Cell for his strength either; only his speed. You have to give Toei some credit, they didn't think their audience was stupid enough to think textual evidence would need to be stated allowed every five seconds. The story suggests he is, so Cell is magically at full power because it's filler? That's just a theory to create a plot hole!

Not only is Cell not surrounded by an aura or any sparks, but there's no indication of him powering up before or during Goku's arrival. Not to mention there's no need to be powered up because it's Goku.

All your comments are either about the surrounding elements about how filler creates plot holes towards the story, but that doesn't mean every instance of filler creates them. Which is why you're pretty much just rambling about things that aren't even relevant.

Freeza wasn't surprised at how strong Goku had gotten, but morose at how fast he did it. Seeing that they'd likely been training in Hell, it rendered their work useless. This in turn surprises Freeza; we could also say Freeza was surprised by the fact they lost and how fast they lost because he thought their improvements as a team would be more than enough to defeat Goku. Unlike the case with Cell, these are just theories, in which I'd like to think this is pretty much a plot hole because they shouldn't be surprised by Goku's strength or speed.

[Fox666]

Uhm, there's no mention of him being able to defeat Cell for his strength either; only his speed.

Goku called him an "amazing guy" on that sequence. Besides Goku said he was fast because he really was fast, which doesn't means he is not strong too. That's the point of defeating Worf.

You have to give Toei some credit, they didn't think their audience was stupid enough

I bet they do... they just don't care.

Look at movie 7, Goku and the others fight for 1 hours equally with the androids, show their true power as Super Saiyans and are still fighting equally.

to think textual evidence would need to be stated allowed. The story suggests he is, so Cell is magically at full power because it's filler?

The story doesn't suggest anything of what you said. The whole sequence is just a huge cliché about a new guy defeating the big bosses of the previous arc. There is no further interpretation about "surprise attacks" or anything.

Besides "surprise attack" is a common explanation fans use to explain why out-classed characters all of a sudden are able to hurt the strongest guy out in the manga. However it's very unlikely Toei writers ever heard of that.

That's just a theory to create a plot hole!

And you have any source that says Cell was holding back, like you say? Because I posted an (sort of) official source that suggests the opposite.

Not only is Cell not surrounded by an aura or any sparks, but there's no indication of him powering up before or during Goku's arrival. Not to mention there's no need to be powered up because it's Goku.

Toei is just not carefull with details. Sparks are just unimportant aesthetical aspect.

And they might even have forgotten Cell returned stronger from the self-destruction. Otherwise Cell should be teleporting around instead of playing with Goku in Hell, not to mention it should be impossible to keep him in a prison if he can teleport.

All your comments are either about the surrounding elements about how filler creates plot holes towards the story, but that doesn't mean every instance of filler creates them. Which is why you're pretty much just rambling about things that aren't even relevant.

If you say Cell was taken down by a guy Goku can fight evenly without transforming in Super Saiyan was because Cell was holding back his power, I was expecting you would explain the Ginyu Tokusentai and Freeza thingie. What about Freeza using only 0.01% of his power at the time? He likes to hold back his strength a whole lot more than Cell at least.

Freeza wasn't surprised at how strong Goku had gotten, but morose at how fast he did it.

Goku had more trouble with the Ginyu Tokusentai than the first time (he even transformed in Super Saiyan!!), so Freeza should be disappointed.

[Perfect]

I. Yes he is fast, there's no indication he's above Cell in strength.

II. The Artificial Humans are more or less toying with them at first, then when they get serious, which is when they go SSJ, they're a little bit less stronger.

III. Yes actually it does, you just have an annoying habit of ignoring what I say because you'd rather it to be brought up constantly. There's clear evidence Cell wasn't at his strength from the end of the Cell Games. There were no sparks, no aura around him, no indication of a power up at all from Cell in the episode and lastly, no reason for him to power up to that level. It's not a fan explanation, it's just you believing what you want to believe. It's clearly indicated that Cell was taken aback from Pikon's sudden interference. He doesn't even have a chance to stop, nor is it implied he got cocky and decided to ram Pikon. There was no opportunity to brace himself.

IV. The source you posted merely says he retains his strength, not once does it specify Cell's level of strength or imply he's powered up. Whereas I've used contextual evidence to prove you wrong.

V. Oh that's a great excuse, "Oh Toei just didn't care about the details". There's not a single indication of that. You're just speculating, and I can do that too. It's likely in Hell that one can't use Instantaneous Movement, just as they can't simply fly upwards. If you speculate they forgot Cell's power from the post-zenkai, then you've proven my point. As I've stated a suppressed Cell is indeed below Pikon, given he would be suppressed in a story context if they forgot about his SSJ2 level of power.

VI. There's no indication of Freeza holding back any amount of power, he's just a weakling compared to anyone that's near SSJ Goku.

VII. Goku wasn't SSJ, meant to be at first, but not in the finished product. Base Goku wouldn't be anywhere near Freeza anyway, so he'd need to transform regardless.

[Saiga]

There's nothing to indicate that Paikuhan wasn't stronger than Cell at that point. It seems far more likely that he was.

[Perfect]

Aside from you know, the fact that Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Cell's level. From the fact all contextual evidence points towards Cell being suppressed and that we only get a plot hole if you ignorantly assume Pikon is stronger because he caught Cell off guard, which makes no sense. It's far from likely that Pikon was stronger.

[Saiga]

Aside from you know, the fact that Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Cell's level. From the fact all contextual evidence points towards Cell being suppressed and that we only get a plot hole if you ignorantly assume Pikon is stronger because he caught Cell off guard, which makes no sense. It's far from likely that Pikon was stronger.

There is no evidence towards Cell being suppressed, that's how you interpret it. And there is still the fact that Goku needed the Super Kaioken to beat Paikuhan, and it is logical to assume this would be at least a x2 boost on his Super Saiyan form, but it could be anywhere up to a x20 boost.

[Perfect]

Yes there is evidence towards him being suppressed. There's no sparks, no indication of a power up at the time or prior, no aura and lastly no need to be powered up. Cell wasn't even worried about Goku, because he shouldn't, which also implies that Cell is still stronger than a Goku who's noticeably nervous.

He didn't need it to win, he just needed to find away to get passed his attack.