Warriors with no ki control

[Piccolo Daimao]

Then why can't Piccolo tell that Vegeta is stronger than Nappa? The difference between Vegeta and Nappa, it's gigantic. The Z-Senshi can tell who's stronger than who, based on their senses, unless the opponent is hiding their chi.

Goku immediately knew Raditz was super-strong. But Goku didn't know Vegeta was super-strong, until Vegeta "powered up."

How do you explain this away?

They both hadn't released all of their ki on the surface yet, so they could still both have comparatively big ki levels at that point. Or (I know it sounds like a cheap excuse, but it still works) it was for dramatic effect to show just how hopeless it was if Vegeta was even stronger than Nappa...although we didn't know by how much until Vegeta killed Nappa, Gokuu was shocked and then they began fighting.

I think Gokuu knew that Vegeta was super-strong. Just that he didn't know just how much strong he was, to the point that he surpassed his expectations.

[dbgtFO]

If what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth is merly putting on a "light show" for dramatic effect, and Piccolo's comment about "never thought it'd be this much" is just in reference to the... er, quaking event caused by Nappa flaring his aura up to show what he can do--

To Piccolo and the other guys the ki is increasing(or to say it differently: it's easier to sense, since it's actually being put to use), while on a scouter it would read the same. That's what the claim is about.

Then why can't Piccolo tell that Vegeta is stronger than Nappa? The difference between Vegeta and Nappa, it's gigantic. The Z-Senshi can tell who's stronger than who, based on their senses, unless the opponent is hiding their chi.

Vegeta wasn't actively using his power, he was only at his "resting level," if you will.

Goku immediately knew Raditz was super-strong. But Goku didn't know Vegeta was super-strong, until Vegeta "powered up."

Raditz also surprised Piccolo with more power after his first attack on the Goku, Piccolo team.
A power-up wasn't needed for that.

Like I said in that Gamefaqs thread, when you actually put your ki to use, by fighting for example, it's easier to sense its actual value, which the later examples seem to agree with ie. Yamcha on Super Saiyan Goku, Gohan on Videl and probably others.

How do you explain this away?

See above.

Also, I'd like you to at least acknowledge my claim.. the way it's being treated here that this is "no plot hole at all, and I don't see why you'd think it would be one," seem pretentious to me.

About as pretentious as you saying "there is a plothole and people saying otherwise are just making up excuses."

Clearly, there is some kind of discrepancy here, or we'd not be having this discussion.

I did say in my last post it wasn't explained very well and Bussani has acknowledged the possibility as well.

[Bussani]

If what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth is merly putting on a "light show" for dramatic effect, and Piccolo's comment about "never thought it'd be this much" is just in reference to the... er, quaking event caused by Nappa flaring his aura up to show what he can do--

I wasn't saying that at all. dbgtFO pretty much answered for me, though.

Also, I'd like you to at least acknowledge my claim.. the way it's being treated here that this is "no plot hole at all, and I don't see why you'd think it would be one," seem pretentious to me. Clearly, there is some kind of discrepancy here, or we'd not be having this discussion.

I believe I did acknowledge that it could be a plothole. I just can't figure out how such a plothole could have happened... I mean, if it was a case of the author changing their mind partway through, that I could understand; but this is a case of things switching back and forth in a short amount of time and showing a consistent difference between scouter readings and ki sensing. If it wasn't intentional, then it's a bizarre and perplexing mistake.

[FindKenshi]

Ok, I am going to refute this idea that the scouter can detect power more accurately or better than the Z-senshi can, in one fell swoop.

Goku and Piccolo's readings went up on the scouter when they took their weighted clothing off. So much the scouter's accuracy. It detects what the Z-senshi can sense.

If Piccolo can't tell Vegeta > Nappa, how do you expect a scouter could? Vegeta's power was supressed at the time.

[Bussani]

Ok, I am going to refute this idea that the scouter can detect power more accurately or better than the Z-senshi can, in one fell swoop.

Goku and Piccolo's readings went up on the scouter when they took their weighted clothing off. So much the scouter's accuracy. It detects what the Z-senshi can sense.

I don't see how that refutes anything. It only proves that weighted clothes can affect battle power readings, much like consciously hiding your ki can.

If Piccolo can't tell Vegeta > Nappa, how do you expect a scouter could?

The same way human ears can't detect sounds with a frequency lower than 20 Hz while an infrasound detector can.

Vegeta's power was supressed at the time.

So Vegeta was "suppressed" all the way down to Nappa's level--that's less than a quarter of his power--but is surprised that 5,000 is only Goku's minimum, or that it went up to over 8,000 from there, or that he can double his strength with Kaio-ken, or that Gohan's power almost multiplied by three when he fired a Masenko?

[FindKenshi]

Bussani says:

1 - I don't see how that refutes anything. It only proves that weighted clothes can affect battle power readings, much like consciously hiding your ki can.


2 - The same way human ears can't detect sounds with a frequency lower than 20 Hz while an infrasound detector can.


3 - So Vegeta was "suppressed" all the way down to Nappa's level--that's less than a quarter of his power--but is surprised that 5,000 is only Goku's minimum, or that it went up to over 8,000 from there, or that he can double his strength with Kaio-ken, or that Gohan's power almost multiplied by three when he fired a Masenko?


1) It proves that the scouter can only detect what is on the surface. aka, somebody's suppressed battle power. sensing somebody's ki does THE EXACT SAME THING. so that if piccolo didn't know vegeta was stronger than nappa, that means that he could not read vegeta's ki properly and that means vegeta was suppressing his ki.

the weight clothes CAN'T affect the readings because they are inanimate!!

2) In this case, the scouter would be the human ears, and the earthling's senses would be infrasound detector, see?

3) In this case, Vegeta isn't even suprised they are changing their power, now. He's just surprised by how much it is changing. As for Goku, he's surprised by "how high" he is.

[Bussani]

It proves that the scouter can only detect what is on the surface. aka, somebody's suppressed battle power.

Uh, right? That's why scouters can be fooled by hiding your ki.

sensing somebody's ki does THE EXACT SAME THING.

Pretty much. But proving that hiding your ki will fool both a scouter and a ki sensing person doesn't prove that ki sensing people can detect everything a scouter can, or vice versa.

so that if piccolo didn't know vegeta was stronger than nappa, that means that he could not read vegeta's ki properly and that means vegeta was suppressing his ki.

Not necessarily, which is what this is all about. I can't see infrared, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, isn't intense, and can't be measured by the right equipment.

the weight clothes CAN'T affect the readings because they are inanimate!!

So you think removing the weights had nothing to do with their readings changing? If they just coincidentally raised their battle powers at will at that time, why wasn't Raditz surprised that they could change their readings at will until later?

As for why inanimate weights could affect the readings, perhaps some of their strength was going to waste just to lift them. When they took them off this power was "freed up".

In this case, the scouter would be the human ears, and the earthling's senses would be infrasound detector, see?

Uh, no, I don't. In the analogy I gave it's the other way around. The infrasound detector may rate a low frequency sound as having an intensity of 18,000, but until it stops being infrasound and enters the range of human hearing frequency, a human wouldn't be able to tell that.

In this case, Vegeta isn't even suprised they are changing their power, now. He's just surprised by how much it is changing.

Why would he be surprised by how much it's changing if he himself is going to multiply his own power by four or so? This kind of thing should be completely expected if they themselves can do it to such a degree. Goku going from 5,000 to 8,000 isn't impressive at all by comparison.

[FindKenshi]

It proves that the scouter can only detect what is on the surface. aka, somebody's suppressed battle power.

Uh, right? That's why scouters can be fooled by hiding your ki.

But you guys keep saying Piccolo/Goku couldn't tell how strong Vegeta was on Earth, because Vegeta's power "just wasn't on the surface."

sensing somebody's ki does THE EXACT SAME THING.

Pretty much. But proving that hiding your ki will fool both a scouter and a ki sensing person doesn't prove that ki sensing people can detect everything a scouter can, or vice versa.

But it's a pretty logical conclusion to reach, isn't it? If not, I'm still waiting on an example from the manga of that not being the case. Show me an example of a scouter showing someone's true potential while a Ki-sensing character still thinks they're weaker.

so that if piccolo didn't know vegeta was stronger than nappa, that means that he could not read vegeta's ki properly and that means vegeta was suppressing his ki.

Not necessarily, which is what this is all about. I can't see infrared, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, isn't intense, and can't be measured by the right equipment.

But this whole "ki on the surface, or laying in rest thing" is just fan conjecture at this point. I've already explained above why that idea is flimsy, and you can't provide any direct examples that back this claim up. Every time we see the scouter being compared to a ki-senser, the ki-sensor is more accurate, while the scouter is being labeled as "imperfect."

the weight clothes CAN'T affect the readings because they are inanimate!!

So you think removing the weights had nothing to do with their readings changing? If they just coincidentally raised their battle powers at will at that time, why wasn't Raditz surprised that they could change their readings at will until later?

You're missing the point. Their readings went up because their speed went up, as well as how hard they could hit (due to their speed). In this sense, Vegeta and Nappa having their powers "at rest" instead of "on the surface", if such a concept even exists, is the same exact thing. You're saying Nappa brought his power out "on the surface" where it could be clearly seen, so why didn't he just attack them with it beneath the surface, and not alert them with that flashy power up sequence? It's because Nappa had to do that power up sequence to perform at that level. Thus, he controlled his ki.

In this case, the scouter would be the human ears, and the earthling's senses would be infrasound detector, see?

Uh, no, I don't. In the analogy I gave it's the other way around.

I know. But I was explaining to you that this line of thinking is incorrect. We've had every example and statement about how useless the scouters are compared to the Z-senshi's abilites. They are better at reading the power than the scouters are..

The infrasound detector may rate a low frequency sound as having an intensity of 18,000, but until it stops being infrasound and enters the range of human hearing frequency, a human wouldn't be able to tell that.

That's all well and good, but it's fan-theory until you can show me an example of it happening in the story.

In this case, Vegeta isn't even suprised they are changing their power, now. He's just surprised by how much it is changing.

Why would he be surprised by how much it's changing if he himself is going to multiply his own power by four or so?

Because he doesn't think the Earthlings are that strong, of course.

This kind of thing should be completely expected if they themselves can do it to such a degree. Goku going from 5,000 to 8,000 isn't impressive at all by comparison.

It's impressive because Vegeta thinks they're a lot weaker than that. Vegeta's surprise wasn't that Goku's power went from 5k to 8k. His surprise was that Goku's power was 5k at all--completly different than it was last year, and he knows that it'll change again, so he's wondering "how the hell did Kakarot improve so much?"

[FindKenshi]

Here's another way of looking at this. Piccolo is surprised that it turns out Vegeta is stronger than Nappa and figures it out when Nappa takes orders from Vegeta. The idea that Vegeta's power was at max yet resting to below Nappa's is so far fetched. Nappa is at best about 8000 so Vegeta's resting power is below that by quite a bit? Yet Goku can't tell how strong Vegeta is until he suddenly "brings it the surface" and then begins fighting Goku that strong? That is controlling your ki, my friend. It's no different from the other examples of known ki-controllers doing the same thing later in the story.

It's kinda silly if you think about how you're saying "resting their ki" isn't the same as controlling it, because what you're saying is that "resting" means the ki is powered up to the max always, but isn't activated which would mean it's being controlled.

[Bussani]

But you guys keep saying Piccolo/Goku couldn't tell how strong Vegeta was on Earth, because Vegeta's power "just wasn't on the surface."

Still not seeing what that has to do with anything.

But it's a pretty logical conclusion to reach, isn't it?

Yes, if it weren't for everything that contradicts it.

If not, I'm still waiting on an example from the manga of that not being the case.

All the things that lead to this interpretation are what you're calling a plothole.

But this whole "ki on the surface, or laying in rest thing" is just fan conjecture at this point.

It's an interpretation reached under the assumption that it's not a plothole. You're free to believe it's a plothole if you want to.

I've already explained above why that idea is flimsy

Well, nothing you've said has made me think it's flimsy.

and you can't provide any direct examples that back this claim up.

And you can't prove it's all one big plothole. It's a matter of perspective. I mean, it's not like I'm trying to say, "THIS IS A FACT." I just think it's a logical conclusion based on the evidence.

Every time we see the scouter being compared to a ki-senser, the ki-sensor is more accurate, while the scouter is being labeled as "imperfect."

Ki sensing has a lot of advantages over scouters. You can tell who a ki belongs to, whether it's "evil" or not, what emotions a person's feeling to an extent--maybe even things like, "This person is holding themselves back." None of that disproves the idea. And heck, maybe their ki sensing was all around better than scouters after the battle with the Saiyans. It had already improved tremendously between Raditz and their their arrival, after all.

You're missing the point. Their readings went up because their speed went up, as well as how hard they could hit (due to their speed).

You know, for someone who accuses me of conjecture, you use a lot of it yourself.

In this sense, Vegeta and Nappa having their powers "at rest" instead of "on the surface", if such a concept even exists, is the same exact thing.

Unless it isn't, which I'm suggesting could be the case. I don't like the term "on the surface", personally. I see it more as "calm" verses "active" ki, with "active" ki being easier for the Earthlings to get a feel for.

You're saying Nappa brought his power out "on the surface" where it could be clearly seen, so why didn't he just attack them with it beneath the surface, and not alert them with that flashy power up sequence? It's because Nappa had to do that power up sequence to perform at that level.

Yes, your ki has to be "active" to use it to its fullest. Attacking when your ki is "calm" is the same as half-assing it--which characters sometimes do.

Thus, he controlled his ki.

Yeah. But not his battle power.

I know. But I was explaining to you that this line of thinking is incorrect.

Well, that's your opinion.

That's all well and good, but it's fan-theory until you can show me an example of it happening in the story.

Everyone with a scouter implies that battle powers don't just change. Kyui is surprised that Vegeta learned to change his on Earth, implying that it was something he couldn't do before. Despite this, the Earthling's clearly sense changes in Vegeta's ki. It may be a theory, but it fits so long as you don't insist that key parts to it are plotholes, and you can't prove that this interpretation's wrong any more than you can prove it's all one big plothole.

The idea that Vegeta's power was at max yet resting to below Nappa's is so far fetched.

The idea is more that his ki is already at its maximum amount but can't be felt clearly yet.

It's no different from the other examples of known ki-controllers doing the same thing later in the story.

Sure it is. One fools a scouter and the other doesn't.

It's kinda silly if you think about how you're saying "resting their ki" isn't the same as controlling it

That's like saying that having a lower heart-rate when you're sitting on the couch than when you're working out is proof that you can control your heart-rate. Vegeta and Nappa can control how much effort they put into fighting, but that doesn't mean they can control the size of their ki the way the Earthlings can. This is why I said we need to define what "ki control" is in this context.

[FindKenshi]

I'll make some comments here, because I'm not going to get into a line-by-line picking each sentence apart "argument", because quite frankly VegettoEX hates when we do that.

So, in brief:

i'll Make some comments here

The idea is more that his ki is already at its maximum amount but can't be felt clearly yet.

So, you're saying vegeta's ki is far below Nappa's in regards to what can be "felt" which is a huuuuuge difference in power because Vegeta's max is waaaaaay above Nappa's.

If Vegeta's ki is at its highest, then it should be felt, because that's how things have always worked in the series. Every example we've seen.

One fools a scouter and the other doesn't.

Heh. One fools a scouter because their ki is controlled to be lowered, and that's what the scouter is reading--his power. Ki sensing is the same thing as what scouters do, as it tells a character's current power. It's the same thing, unless you can prove otherwise.

That's like saying that having a lower heart-rate when you're sitting on the couch than when you're working out is proof that you can control your heart-rate.

That's not a great analogy, because it does mean exactly that. By sitting on the couch you're keeping your heart rate lowered, while working out you're making it increase. You are directly doing something that changes your heart rate, of consious decision and knowledge... That's "controlling" your heart rate, however indirectly.

Vegeta and Nappa can control how much effort they put into fighting

But in this case, the Z-Senshi can sense the difference between them putting small effort (resting) and full effort (on the surface), then that means they are controlling their battle power... If they controlled their effort WITHOUT comments about their power increasing, then you'd have a point. But the control of this effort COMBINED with the statements about their power "going up", by respectable people like Goku and Piccolo, proves it's battle-power control.

but that doesn't mean they can control the size of their ki the way the Earthlings can.

Heh, yet they're power goes up to the Z-senshi's senses, as well as rests lower. It's the same thing.

You're mixing two things. Vegeta/Nappa can control the force they put into something even if they are at max power. That's what Raditz did. But did Goku or Piccolo ever state that Raditz's power seemed to be going up? No, they never did. This also happens to be what we see these guys do at the tournament, on the punching machine where they control the amount of force they use. No one is sensing a greater power when they do that, but they ARE sensing a greater power with Vegeta/Nappa.

Ki controlling with power levels is different, because it's controlling how much energy they're using or accessing or w/e, which is then emitted. Vegeta couldn't be at 18,000, then, because everyone would have known he was stronger than Nappa. Goku Wouldn't have been so shocked at Vegeta's power up moment, either. He would have realized from the very start that Kaioken wouldn't be enough. He doesn't learn until after Vegeta's power up moment.

This is the same thing as supressing your power, appearing to be lower, and then *SURPRISE* lol powerup + omg he's so strong now.

Same. Exact. Thing.

You simply must use an example, preferably a manga scan, to refute this. It doesn't get more black and white than this.

[Bussani]

So, you're saying vegeta's ki is far below Nappa's in regards to what can be "felt" which is a huuuuuge difference in power because Vegeta's max is waaaaaay above Nappa's.

"Far below"? I don't think I said that. But that's basically the idea, that his ki could be large in magnitude yet difficult to get a good feel for until it became active. Like the difference between a calm ocean and a stormy one; the volume of water doesn't have to have changed.

If Vegeta's ki is at its highest, then it should be felt, because that's how things have always worked in the series.

Felt, perhaps. Felt accurately? That's what this is all about.

Heh. One fools a scouter because their ki is controlled to be lowered, and that's what the scouter is reading--his power. Ki sensing is the same thing as what scouters do, as it tells a character's current power. It's the same thing, unless you can prove otherwise.

It is the same thing, just as a device that measures sound waves is the same as what our ears do. That doesn't mean our ears can detect everything a sound measuring device can. And that's to do with frequency, not loudness.

Can I prove ki works this way? No. Am I trying to? No. Do I need to? No, because I'm only suggesting all this as a possible interpretation, not as a fact.

That's not a great analogy, because it does mean exactly that. By sitting on the couch you're keeping your heart rate lowered, while working out you're making it increase. You are directly doing something that changes your heart rate, of consious decision and knowledge... That's "controlling" your heart rate, however indirectly.

Using that logic, everyone in the show can control their ki. Break your own neck, your ki falls. It's not the same as changing it at will like the Earthlings, Namekians, and Ginyu can.

But in this case, the Z-Senshi can sense the difference between them putting small effort (resting) and full effort (on the surface), then that means they are controlling their battle power... If they controlled their effort WITHOUT comments about their power increasing, then you'd have a point. But the control of this effort COMBINED with the statements about their power "going up", by respectable people like Goku and Piccolo, proves it's battle-power control.

You can't use Goku and Piccolo sensing things as proof against the idea when the whole idea is that what they sense and what scouters record are subtly different.

Heh, yet they're power goes up to the Z-senshi's senses, as well as rests lower. It's the same thing.

You're mixing two things. Vegeta/Nappa can control the force they put into something even if they are at max power. That's what Raditz did. But did Goku or Piccolo ever state that Raditz's power seemed to be going up? No, they never did. This also happens to be what we see these guys do at the tournament, on the punching machine where they control the amount of force they use. No one is sensing a greater power when they do that, but they ARE sensing a greater power with Vegeta/Nappa.

Ki controlling with power levels is different, because it's controlling how much energy they're using or accessing or w/e, which is then emitted. Vegeta couldn't be at 18,000, then, because everyone would have known he was stronger than Nappa. Goku Wouldn't have been so shocked at Vegeta's power up moment, either. He would have realized from the very start that Kaioken wouldn't be enough. He doesn't learn until after Vegeta's power up moment.

This is the same thing as supressing your power, appearing to be lower, and then *SURPRISE* lol powerup + omg he's so strong now.

Same. Exact. Thing.

Your whole argument that ki sensing and scouter readings aren't slightly different things is "they're the same thing." That's not an argument.

You simply must use an example, preferably a manga scan, to refute this. It doesn't get more black and white than this.

So why is Kyui surprised at Vegeta being able to raise his scouter reading, and why did Vegeta say he learned it on Earth?

[dbgtFO]

You simply must use an example, preferably a manga scan, to refute this. It doesn't get more black and white than this.

So why is Kyui surprised at Vegeta being able to raise his scouter reading, and why did Vegeta say he learned it on Earth?

Because it's a plothole obviously. FindKenshi doesn't seem to be open to other possibilities, even though it is debatable, if it even is a plothole to begin with.

I'd like it, if he took some advice from himself:

I know. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. Your refusal to accept any other possiblity is the problem, here.

[Perfect]

Kinda jumping in here, but uh, if someone would be nice enough to explain the plot hole to me, that'd be great.

[dbgtFO]

His argument goes as follows: Goku and co. didn't know Nappa and Vegeta's power until they powered up, which means Nappa and Vegeta was suppressing their battle powers like the Z-Fighters.

Then later on Namek Vegeta said that he learned the ability to control his battle power from the earthlings, but this contradicts the fact, that it did change from Goku and co.'s perspective therefore making it a plothole.

Counter-argument: Goku and co. aren't scouters, so that makes it possible for there being differences between how they good they function at this point in the story.
The belief is then that back on Earth, Nappa and Vegeta powering up would not mean the numbers on the scouter would change. This is contrasted by Goku's and co.'s ability to actually change the numbers on the scouter, in line with Vegeta explaining that controlling his battle power is what he picked up from the earthlings.

[Perfect]

Couldn't it be that they weren't suppressing it? And that they just released their energy the only way they knew how? Example:

Vegeta and Nappa fight off a hoard of aliens, they're at maximum power fighting them. 600-890 BP
Vegeta and Nappa win the fight against them, but their battle powers are severely low. 40-67 BP
Vegeta and Nappa recover from the battle through rejuvenation chambers. 300-456 BP

Is it ever stated that someone would have to be at their max power unless suppressing it? Freeza's max power caused his battle power to actually drop from the strain of it all. I'd imagine that without making an effort to suppress battle power that it'd go someone in between the variables. By control Vegeta could mean to control it at will, thus suppressing it and having better regulation over it.

[hleV]

Maybe back during the Saiyan arc the ki sensing wasn't mastered to an extent to measure how strong someone is while they're not fighting, that is while their ki is calm and not circulating. So Piccolo and co. couldn't have known how strong Vegeta was, just that he was strong overally. So Scouters, at that time, were more accurate.

[dbgtFO]

Couldn't it be that they weren't suppressing it?

In a nutshell that's what the counter-argument is all about.
Nappa and Vegeta weren't suppressing their battle powers like Goku and Co. ie: a scouter would detect the same value with or without them powering up.

In Goku and Co.'s case it would detect an actual change(since they go from suppressed to not suppressed), tying in with Vegeta's comment about picking up on that ability from the earthlings.

Maybe back during the Saiyan arc the ki sensing wasn't mastered to an extent to measure how strong someone is while they're not fighting, that is while their ki is calm and not circulating. So Piccolo and co. couldn't have known how strong Vegeta was, just that he was strong overally. So Scouters, at that time, were more accurate.

I think so too. Their ability to sense ki didn't seem that great, when measured up against the scouter at that time.

Bussani already posted the example with Raditz's scouter being able to detect Goku and Piccolo's powers from a great distance in contrast to Goku and Piccolo having to use the Dragon Radar to find Raditz.

[FindKenshi]

Highlight reel, comin' up

1 - Yeah. But not his battle power.

2 - Ki sensing has a lot of advantages over scouters. You can tell who a ki belongs to, whether it's "evil" or not, what emotions a person's feeling to an extent--maybe even things like, "This person is holding themselves back." None of that disproves the idea. And heck, maybe their ki sensing was all around better than scouters after the battle with the Saiyans. It had already improved tremendously between Raditz and their their arrival, after all.

3 - Yes, if it weren't for everything that contradicts it.

4 - Vegeta and Nappa can control how much effort they put into fighting, but that doesn't mean they can control the size of their ki the way the Earthlings can.

1. A contradiction. If he controlled his ki, he controlled his battle power. If I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Let's see some references!

2. If the Z-senshi's ki sensing wasn't better tahn the scouters, then Vegeta wouldn't have bothered learning it--his scouter would be better. Also, do you have proof that the ki sensing improved between Raditz's arrival and Vegeta's? A manga scan would be sufficent. Thanks!

3. You keep saying this, you haven't shown any examples of anything contradicting it...

4. If that were true, Goku wouldn't have been completly surprised and fooled that Vegeta had so much power, when he powered up! He increased the size of his ki, then Goku said "He's stronger than I thought he'd be, hit the road." See how that fact goes with that statement, backing up my claims?

Specific replies

"Far below"? I don't think I said that. But that's basically the idea, that his ki could be large in magnitude yet difficult to get a good feel for until it became active. Like the difference between a calm ocean and a stormy one; the volume of water doesn't have to have changed.

The ocean is still there whether it's active or not. So people with sight can "tell" that "hey the ocean's there, and it's huuuuuge!" It being calm or violent doesnt' matter as that's just how it's acting. Someone can say "the ocean is so calm today" when looking at it, but that doesnt' change the fact that they know the ocean is there, and that it's big.

It is the same thing, just as a device that measures sound waves is the same as what our ears do. That doesn't mean our ears can detect everything a sound measuring device can. And that's to do with frequency, not loudness.

Can I prove ki works this way? No. Am I trying to? No. Do I need to? No, because I'm only suggesting all this as a possible interpretation, not as a fact.

Ok, you need to stop with the analogies already, because I'm waiting for you to start talking about technology like Iron Man's armor, or something. "The pulsar waves from the Mach I can't measure the gravitude of the raydon beams of the Mach II, because the design is that the particles of the XMS8 enforce is only set for level 12 equations." LOL

Let's face it, stick to in-story references and examples, like I have. Stop with these 4th-wall analogies, they're just bad and they are just molded around your opinionated beliefs, it's terrible to use such as an example in a debate.

You can't use Goku and Piccolo sensing things as proof against the idea when the whole idea is that what they sense and what scouters record are subtly different.

Yes, I can. The story establishes what they sense, and what the scouters show, is the same thing... one's strength level aka Battle Power. The story establishes this, not FindKenshi. You're the one going against what the story tells us.

Goku has his power supressed and is read at 5000. People that can sense ki would feel Goku's power at that amount. Goku's power is raised to its max and goes to 8000. The scouter reads this, while the people who can sense ki realize Goku's power has just increased and is bigger now. We see this happen, because Krillin and Gohan are quite shocked when Goku powers-up.

There's nothing different from what the scouters do and what the ki sensors do, or, rather, if there is, prove there is. Let's see some manga references to prove your belief.

Your whole argument that ki sensing and scouter readings aren't slightly different things is "they're the same thing." That's not an argument.

Simply not true at all. They're the same thing "reading one's strength based on how much ki they're putting out", because it's SHOWN to be this way in the story. I gave the example with Goku on Earth up there, already.

I've already poked huge holes in your idea that Vegeta's ki was always sitting at max, but nobody realized it's size because it wasn't "active." The idea is just downright silly, and as long as I've tried to be polite here, you still can't show references from the story to back this far-fetched claim up. Piccolo can't even tell that Vegeta is stronger than Nappa! Whether you have Nappa at 4,000 or closer to 8,000--that's still a huge difference. Vegeta is 18,000 here. And if what you say by being "at rest" makes Vegeta's power appear as low as 4,000-- THEN WHAT THE HECK IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT, AND HIDING YOUR TRUE STRENGTH? LOL see what I'm getting at?

Vegeta--was hiding his true strength! This is so black and white, and all of this crap about "at rest" and "on the surface" there isn't a BIT of that uttered in any magna page or guidebook, it's all being made up on DaizEX forum... let's use FACTS, people!

So why is Kyui surprised at Vegeta being able to raise his scouter reading, and why did Vegeta say he learned it on Earth?

Because it's a PLOT HOLE! LOL, that is the entire reason we're arguing. I say that is a plot hole, you automatically assume it isn't, and then make excuses to try to bend the story around it being a polt hole! That is the root cause of the issue here.

It's just bad writing along the vien of Raditz being surprised about Goku's and Piccolo's techniques focusing their ki, when we see Vegeta do the same thing on Earth, and one could argue even Nappa, since he aura-powers that finger jam that almost blows Goku up.

It's simply a mistake by the author. Vegeta says he learned to control his battle power, but we see him doing such on Earth, before he ever "learned" it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not really trying to interfere in this debate or anything, but an example of improved Chi-sensing is Goku and Piccolo needing the radar to track Raditz, whereas later they were able to sense the Saiyans right as soon as they landed, and knew when they started moving towards them. Gohan and Krillin were also able to find Goku and Vegeta through Chi-sensing alone.

I always thought the Battle Power control bit was confusing, but not anymore.