How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If I remember, Vegeta was SSj2 in the "Buu vs the Universe" on the last battle of DBZ, however, he didn't had any sparks, and his hair wasn't spikier/bigger.

Are you talking about the manga or the anime? And what the fuck is "Buu vs the Universe"?!

[dprez]

Akira Toriyama's art says otherwise. Hell, even the story does ( to me, at least ).

If we go by art AT made big mistake in story. If we go by story and what is stated AT made big mistake in art.

If I remember, Vegeta was SSj2 in the "Buu vs the Universe" on the last battle of DBZ, however, he didn't had any sparks, and his hair wasn't spikier/bigger.

Not only that, but I saw on BT3 biography that Paikuhan fought against SSj2 Goku. It is wrong or AT really likes to screw the differences a lot? It's not that hard to draw lightnings.

Bold: Exactly. This is my point.

And your're talking about the anime in your Vegeta example there.

i use logic first not guidbooks.

Me too. In this case, the guidebook contradicts the manga.

[Super Vegetto]

Akira Toriyama's art says otherwise. Hell, even the story does ( to me, at least ).

If we go by art AT made big mistake in story. If we go by story and what is stated AT made big mistake in art.

If I remember, Vegeta was SSj2 in the "Buu vs the Universe" on the last battle of DBZ, however, he didn't had any sparks, and his hair wasn't spikier/bigger.

Not only that, but I saw on BT3 biography that Paikuhan fought against SSj2 Goku. It is wrong or AT really likes to screw the differences a lot? It's not that hard to draw lightnings.

To tell you the truth BT3 Pikkon should fight SSJ2 Goku. Pikkon destroyed SPC in 2 kicks and he fights equal with FPSSJ Goku or having little advantege which doesnt make sence if he is above SPC.

Btw AT whanted to show Gohan weaker than SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta so he makes him without lightning.
He makes him like normal SSJ2 in world tournament because that is first SSJ2 and it neads to look like SSJ2. Also aura changes and so did for Vegeta, Goku during fight and for Vegeta vs Majin boo.

Toei made perfect filler where SSJ2 Gohan cant acces his anger ( lightning ).


dprez

No way. Daizenshuu 7 and manga statment work perfectly. There is no where in guidbook or manga that SSJ2 neads to look like SSJ2.

Remember Trunks ?

[012yArthur0]

If I remember, Vegeta was SSj2 in the "Buu vs the Universe" on the last battle of DBZ, however, he didn't had any sparks, and his hair wasn't spikier/bigger.

Are you talking about the manga or the anime? And what the fuck is "Buu vs the Universe"?!

It was a reference to the final battle in DBZ. Where Goku and Vegeta (And after, Mr.Boo) tried to stop Boo in his pure evil form.

Oh sorry, I wasn't clear.

Anime: When Goku asked to Vegeta make some time to do the Spirit Bomb, vegeta turned on SSJ.
Manga: When Goku asked to Vegeta make some time to do the Spirit Bomb, vegeta turned on SSJ2.

Anime: Paikuhan fought Goku on his SSJ Form
BT3 Biography (SSj2 Goku): This transformation was used against Paikuhan in the tournament.

So, probably BT3 is wrong about SSj2 Goku, but nothing explains why Vegeta wasn't SSj2 against Buu. If we take that in account, couldn't we say that AT misdrawed SSJ2 Gohan and make him look like his SSJ Form? After all, they basically the same without the "lightning/sparks" until you take a really good look at the hair.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

xD i use logic first not guidbooks. Its manga > guidbooks and manga is pretty good in statments.

And manga shows us that Gohan is Super Saiyan against Dabra.

*snip*
This is budokai tenkaichi so it doesnt count.

I don't understand what you mean here. According to the translation (I don't have it, but we both have read it before) it says that strangely, Gohan didn't became SSJ2 after the Tenkaichi Budokai.

HIGH SCHOOL ERA
SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37



During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Btw where ?

The Dabra fight didn't happen in volume 37. The Daizenshuu should say Vol, 37+.

Remember Trunks ?

What's wrong with Trunks? He has a Full-Power Super Saiyan aura, which means that he became one in the RoSaT... What's your point here?

[dprez]

I think he believes Trunks is a Ssj2 there...

[Super Vegetto]

xD i use logic first not guidbooks. Its manga > guidbooks and manga is pretty good in statments.

And manga shows us that Gohan is Super Saiyan against Dabra.

*snip*
This is budokai tenkaichi so it doesnt count.

I don't understand what you mean here. According to the translation (I don't have it, but we both have read it before) it says that strangely, Gohan didn't became SSJ2 after the Tenkaichi Budokai.

HIGH SCHOOL ERA
SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37



During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Btw where ?

The Dabra fight didn't happen in volume 37. The Daizenshuu should say Vol, 37+.

Remember Trunks ?

What's wrong with Trunks? He has a Full-Power Super Saiyan aura, which means that he became one in the RoSaT... What's your point here?

Manga shows Gohan like SSJ. Manga states Gohan like SSJ2.

Its BT3 man. You cant use proof from game.

Well do you remember Trunks from Cell games. There is no FPSSJ aura for Trunks in Cell games. I already explained how aura doesnt matter.
Vegeta vs Majin Boo is perfect example how aura changes all the time. Filler is perfect example how Gohan cant acces his true powe so lightning is not going out.

[Super Vegetto]

I think he believes Trunks is a Ssj2 there...

He is SSJ4 but he shaved himself and cut off his tail and change hair color.

[dprez]

Manga states Gohan like SSJ2.

Where?

[Super Vegetto]

Manga states Gohan like SSJ2.

Where?

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

And Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura who is FP Perfect Cell level.

When you compere someone in strenght, you compere him with the guy that is in full power. Goku senced FP Perfect Cell.

If Gohan is FPSSJ against Dabura he would be dead in 5 sec. Also he got weaker during fight which Dabura confirmed. FPSSJ doesnt loose power so fast you know. Thats why its called FPSSJ or mastered ssj.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well do you remember Trunks from Cell games. There is no FPSSJ aura for Trunks in Cell games. I already explained how aura doesnt matter.
Vegeta vs Majin Boo is perfect example how aura changes all the time. Filler is perfect example how Gohan cant acces his true powe so lightning is not going out.

Indeed, both he & Vegeta have the SSJFP aura. FPSSJ has 2 types of auras.

Normal aura:


Powering-up aura:


The normal SSJFP aura seems to be the SSJ aura. It's not:


The SSJ aura is more flame-like, while the normal SSJFP aura is more spiky. I currently don't have scans available, but just check Vegeta's & Trunks' auras when they power up to fight the Cell Jr.s, they both have the "normal" SSJFP. Goten & Trunks also display this aura, and Goten also displays the "powering-up" SSJFP aura.

Manga states Gohan like SSJ2.

Where?

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

I can't see anyone saying that Gohan was SSJ2.

[dprez]

Manga states Gohan like SSJ2.

Where?

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

And Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura who is FP Perfect Cell level.

When you compere someone in strenght, you compere him with the guy that is in full power. Goku senced FP Perfect Cell.

If Gohan is FPSSJ against Dabura he would be dead in 5 sec. Also he got weaker during fight which Dabura confirmed. FPSSJ doesnt loose power so fast you know. Thats why its called FPSSJ or mastered ssj.

Like I said, that does not literally mean what you think it does. And your theory on FPSsj there is not substantiated by anything in the manga.

[Super Vegetto]

No, thing you forgot. Trunks has FPSSJ aura all the time against Androids,Future Cell and aura never changes when he fights or is relaxed in future timeline.

I can't see anyone saying that Gohan was SSJ2.

Well that is what happens when you ignore something important.

dprez

And your theory on FPSsj there is not substantiated by anything in the manga.

Explain what did i sad wrong ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, thing you forgot. Trunks has FPSSJ aura all the time against Androids

No he doesn't.

[Super Vegetto]

No, thing you forgot. Trunks has FPSSJ aura all the time against Androids

No he doesn't.

You call me a liar ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, thing you forgot. Trunks has FPSSJ aura all the time against Androids

No he doesn't.

You call me a liar ?

No, I say that you are wrong.

[dprez]

lol, this is going no where guys.

[Super Vegetto]

dbgtFO

I think that this guy made topic about Is Gohan SSJ or SSJ2. Anyone knows where is that topic or link ?

[012yArthur0]

Guys, this is really getting nowhere.

So, I would recoomend you (Yes, it's a recoome joke) to each one get's all the proofs and counter proofs on the lasts post, as a "Final Turn".

I still believe that Gohan wasn't SSj, it didn't had Sparks in neither manga or anime (However, in the anime they forgot about SSj2 Vegeta, so the same could happen to Gohan as a counter-proof) and it was shown that kaioshin sucks at reading KI (Which is weird, since he is a Kaio. He should know those things) and it was stated at BT3 that Gohan only used SSJ2 only in the tournament to show to Kibito. He didn't use it after that for unknown reasons.

[Godo]

You call me a liar ?

Dude, you act like you are completely right and create a thread where you rather want to "inform" us unknowing sheep of your magnificent, fool proof theories than discuss with us.
It's an insult when you make a thread and don't appreciate other people's views and comments.
You have called a user "ignorant" in this thread. In fact, you are the one showing ignorance when you won't even take other people's views into consideration.

Some people have put forward some pretty good arguments. As a thread starter you should be polite enough to take them into consideration.
Mind you, I am not meaning to tell you that you should agree with other user's comments, but at least don't act like your opinion is flawless and the only correct one.

I think that the majority of us are here to discuss things, not to be educated of a theory that you thus far haven't succeeded to back up appropriately.

To add to some of the discussion:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P5.1-3
Kaioshin: “At any rate, it was a big miscalculation that Dabra is here. A combo of Babidi and Dabra…”
Vegeta: “Are you trying to say that our chances of victory have fallen considerably?”
Kaioshin: “…”

The only one here to have doubts is Kaioshin. This is of course understandable since Kaioshin mentions that the most dangerous magic Babidi has is his Majin seal.
Otherwise, he is pretty harmless. With Dabra, it will become harder to come close to Babidi.
But Kaioshin doesn't know of the capabilities of the Saiyajins yet, even though he saw SSJ2 Gohan and felt his power.
So Kaioshin is an idiot.

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

One of those trash (Gohan) have Dabra a pretty good fight. Dabra didn't know if Gohan could get stronger (Goku advised Gohan to use his rage to win).
So Gohan was truly stronger than Dabra. He just had to become angrier and he would have the upper hand.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Marvelous energy could mean pretty much a power equivalent to Yakon's power. If they fought them long enough, they would fill the meter up.
But they were proven wrong later on.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Again, same as what I wrote above. They were proven deadly wrong moments later.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P3.2-4
Goku: “Is he amazing?...”
Kaioshin: “Of course…He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all…One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top…”
Kuririn: “Th-the king of the Demon Realm, you say?...There’s a world like that?...S-so he’s probably an incredibly dangerous opponent, right…!?”

And Piccolo Daimao was also a feared demon once and feared by Kuririn too. So that doesn't say much.
And the most dangerous thing about Dabra was found out to be his spit.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Gohan's comment clearly indicates that Cell is much, much weaker than him.