How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

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Beji
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 5:11 pm

hleV wrote:I don't understand what are you saying xD
... Then lets not use your "Timeline X". It is simple to understand.

If you read or watched Dragon Ball time traveling Cell came from History 3 where Trunks used the controller to kill the androids. Cell killed trunks in that timeline.

Because trunks is dead.. He doesn't come back for the Cell games. So what timeline is that one in? Not the first 3. A new timeline is made History #4.

History 4 MUST exist because there is a timeline in which Trunks never comes back...Because Cell from History 3 kills him and time travels.

If you still don't understand keep reading...

Every time a variation happens like that a new timeline forms. Just like by Trunks coming back and killing killing Freeza and king cold and giving Goku medicine he made a new timeline that branched off his timeline.(the main series history #1)

Trunks came from History #2, you know this.

When Trunks goes back to kill the androids with a remote that is also making a new timeline that branched off his timeline (History #3). Where he dies to Cell.

Not only does he not come back, but he left to kill the androids with the remote. Why does he do this instead of History #1? I do not know. But because he left it made a new history that branches off the main series timeline. History #4 branched off from History #1.

You can't not have History #4 because Trunks had to have taken the remote from THAT timeline. And Trunks does not return after he dies in history #3.... That timeline is the result of Trunks leaving and not coming back.

If you don't get that I cannot explain it further. Plenty of other people can take a wack at explaining it to you but that is why it NEEDS to be there. I don't think I can break it down any more than that without making it literally step by step someone else can do that.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by hleV » Fri May 18, 2012 5:19 pm

Beji wrote:
hleV wrote:I don't understand what are you saying xD
... Then lets not use your "Timeline X". It is simple to understand.

If you read or watched Dragon Ball time traveling Cell came from History 3 where Trunks used the controller to kill the androids. Cell killed trunks in that timeline.

Because trunks is dead.. He doesn't come back for the Cell games. So what timeline is that one in? Not the first 3. A new timeline is made History #4.

History 4 MUST exist because there is a timeline in which Trunks never comes back...Because Cell from History 3 kills him and time travels.
But why must there be Cell Games in History 4? What makes you think that a time-travelling Cell is in History 4 as well?
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 18, 2012 5:22 pm

hleV wrote:But why must there be Cell Games in History 4?
There shouldn't.
1) It's an error.
2) There is History 5 (the one that History 4 Cell came from) & History 6 (the one History 5 Trunks visited).

Make your choice.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 5:30 pm

hleV wrote: But why must there be Cell Games in History 4? What makes you think that a time-travelling Cell is in History 4 as well?
Because anytime a new timeline forms... Everything is replicated. The time is relative.

In timeline #1 cell from #3 appears in the past. He is now in that timeline. When the story varies and timeline #4 forms.. Cell is still there. It is only Trunks who doesnt come back
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: There shouldn't.
1) It's an error.
2) There is History 5 (the one that History 4 Cell came from) & History 6 (the one History 5 Trunks visited).
Why would that happen? History 4 cell came from history #3. The history#4 branched off from #1. thats how this series' timeline works.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Beji wrote:Why would that happen? History 4 cell came from history #3. The history#4 branched off from #1. thats how this series' timeline works.
Oh yeah, this could work too.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by hleV » Fri May 18, 2012 5:48 pm

Beji wrote:
hleV wrote: But why must there be Cell Games in History 4? What makes you think that a time-travelling Cell is in History 4 as well?
Because anytime a new timeline forms... Everything is replicated. The time is relative.
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. History 4 was already made when Trunks from History 3 travelled to it. Cell travelling from History 3 to History 1 shouldn't have affected History 4...
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 5:56 pm

Oh geez... Makes lots of sense just think.

THE time traveling cell. was replicated when cell from history #3 was on the timeline history #1
hleV wrote:History 4 was already made when Trunks from History 3 travelled to it.
Wrong. History 4 was made as soon as Trunks decided to take the remote and travel from history #1
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 18, 2012 6:12 pm

Beji wrote:Wrong. History 4 was made as soon as Trunks decided to take the remote and travel from history #1
The timelines in DB aren't separated by taking different decisions (like in DBM), but by the the time travels. So... scratch that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 6:20 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Beji wrote:Wrong. History 4 was made as soon as Trunks decided to take the remote and travel from history #1
The timelines in DB aren't separated by taking different decisions (like in DBM), but by the the time travels. So... scratch that.
Yes by time travel... travel from history #1 I am just expanding everything I say because when I gave a short explanation to him last time w/o details he didn't get a thing.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 18, 2012 6:21 pm

From what I understood, you say that Trunks decided to time travel... Am right?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 6:27 pm

Yes and as soon as he did the new history(timeline) was made.

I also do not know why he decided to which is irritating.

Also I just looked more into the DragonBallM and if they are using sepearate universes from any different decision....That's an infinite amount of variations.... But interesting. I've only seen a panel or two from on here. But it looks very interesting.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 18, 2012 7:15 pm

Beji wrote:Yes and as soon as he did the new history(timeline) was made.
That's the point, it doesn't work like that. History 3 Trunks time traveled into the past and created History 4. History 3 Cell time traveled in the past, and created History 1, affecting Future Trunks and creating History 2.
For Cell Games to happen in History 4, another Cell should have come there from History 5, where Trunks traveled to History 6, found the Artificial Humans' blueprints, deactivated them, and Cell Games never happened. Then, Trunks went back to History 5, got killed by Cell, and Cell time traveled to History 4, where he presumably found the deactivated Artificial Humans, absorbed them, reached his Perfect Form, and launched the Cell Games. But Trunks wasn't there, because the Trunks that came to History 4 was from History 3. Trunks was killed in History 3 by Cell, and then Cell time traveled to History 1, and the Trunks in History 1 came from History 2.
So, the original timeline is none-other than History 5.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 7:28 pm

I don't think so that's just an unnecessary amount of extra history's and people, and many, many assumptions too. I'm sorry I cant, oh man its a mess who am I kidding I am not going to even bother debunking that mess :lol:

The way I said it is sound, follows the timelines shown and answers every question except. why trunks changed his mind and goes back*EDIT* to his time* done edit with the remote. which yours doesn't answer at all. and you threw a few extra Trunks and Cells, and timelines in the deal :lol: if you want to believe that go right ahead.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Super Vegetto » Fri May 18, 2012 8:09 pm

Funny thing is that if Trunks returned to past and arrived again in time where he lets Goku to kill Frieza and King Cold he would create another timeline. He would evade risk of beeing seen by others but he automaticly created that timeline.

Everytime he travels he creates one timeline.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Bussani » Fri May 18, 2012 8:51 pm

I don't follow your explanations at all, Beji. History #3 existed first. Trunks went back in time to study the androids and find their weakness, which created History #4. He apparently gets a shutdown controller in this timeline and returns to his time. He shuts down the androids and is killed by Cell, who steals his time machine and goes back in time, creating History #1.

Cell never travels to History #4, so like hleV points out, there shouldn't be a Cell in History #4. History #4 already happened--the Cell that went to History #1 shouldn't be retroactively copy-pasted into History #4 anymore than he would be copied into History #3's past.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 8:56 pm

Bussani wrote:I don't follow your explanations at all, Beji. History #3 existed first.
I really hope that isn't true. Where does it say history #3 exists first? Otherwise all of my stuff goes out the window. My entire reading of that is on the grounds that #2 exists first and everything works well b/c of that.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Bussani » Fri May 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Beji wrote:I really hope that isn't true. Where does it say history #3 exists first? Otherwise all of my stuff goes out the window. My entire reading of that is on the grounds that #2 exists first and everything works well b/c of that.
Ahhh, that explains why I couldn't understand what you meant!

To be fair, I don't think it exactly says that History #3 came first, but that's how it seems to me if you want to explain everything in order. Cell, who comes from History #3, was already underground in History #1 before Trunks from History #2 even arrived; moreover, Cell wouldn't have come back in time in the first place if the androids weren't dead in History #3, which only happened because of the events in History #4. How can there be a Cell in History #4 when the events of History #4 are what cause Cell to time travel in the first place?

Of course, I could be wrong. I don't understand the way you're looking at it, but that might be my failing, you know? When you said you thought History #2 came first, suddenly I felt like there might be another way of looking at it that I'd never considered before!
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Beji » Fri May 18, 2012 10:53 pm

Do you mind if I break down what you told me because I am now interested in what you guys are saying. There may be some info that I don't know about I haven't read through all the Daizenshuus yet. These are the parts I disagree with/do not understand.
Bussani wrote: To be fair, I don't think it exactly says that History #3 came first, but that's how it seems to me if you want to explain everything in order. Cell, who comes from History #3, was already underground in History #1 before Trunks from History #2 even arrived;
The reason I do not have it like this is just because he traveled back the farthest does not mean he traveled back "first".

Bussani wrote:which only happened because of the events in History #4. How can there be a Cell in History #4 when the events of History #4 are what cause Cell to time travel in the first place?
This is the part I do not understand.
My breakdown has History #4 branching out from History #1 having all events before the branch-out exactly the same. Am I missing information that I never heard about before?

The events in history #4 you said
Bussani wrote:Trunks went back in time to study the androids and find their weakness, which created History #4.
Where is that from? Do you guys mean the generic "He goes to the past to help Goku and see if the androids have a weakness?" or did something say he did something different?

Otherwise there is no reason that History #4 would be created by him going back. Let me know about the questions.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by Bussani » Sat May 19, 2012 12:13 am

I was going to answer each part individually, but I think the crux of the matter is this:
Beji wrote:The events in history #4 you said
Bussani wrote:Trunks went back in time to study the androids and find their weakness, which created History #4.
Where is that from? Do you guys mean the generic "He goes to the past to help Goku and see if the androids have a weakness?" or did something say he did something different?
Yeah, it's a pretty generic "he goes to the past to discover their weakness." That was what Bulma built the time machine for according to the Future Trunks side-chapter. If you look carefully at the Daizenshuu chart, you can see a purple line showing Trunks #3 (the Trunks from History #3, if that isn't clear) returning to History #3 from History #4. Directly after that it says that he uses the controller to shut down the androids in History #3. Thus, History #4 is where he got the shut down controller from. If History #1 is caused by Cell #3's arrival, then History #4 can't branch off from History #1, since History #1's very creation was caused by the events in History #4.
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Re: How do you explain plot holes within Dragon Ball?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 19, 2012 4:31 am

Beji wrote:why trunks changed his mind and goes back*EDIT* to his time* done edit with the remote.
But this isn't how timelines are created in Dragon Ball! How many times must I say this... :| This logic applies in Dragon Ball Multiverse, but not in the manga/anime.
Beji wrote:which yours doesn't answer at all. and you threw a few extra Trunks and Cells, and timelines in the deal :lol:
I answer it perfectly. YOU didn't understand my answer. For Cell Games to happen in History #4, there MUST be 2 other Histories. Or else, it's a Daizenshuu error.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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