If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

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Michsi
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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Michsi » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:09 am

No, it just paints over the consequences. Much like nobody cares that Vegeta straight-up murders a guy in the Android arc.
It can't paint over consquences that don't exist. As I said before, there is more to stockholm syndrom than "getting attached to the abuser".
At most ,the story can be re-written to make it fit the stockholm syndrom idea, but you'll have to change Piccolo purpose.

And there was nothing to paint over Vegeta killing thay guy , because him being a reckless murderer was his character at that point in the series. Also there was nobody there to say anything about it.

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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Hades » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:11 am

Michsi wrote:My senses were tingling and I come running. The "shonen paint" as you call it, keep it from being anything like that .
Besides, this has nothing to do with the genre, it's simply a light hearted story. And taking that away doesn't t automatically have to result in grimdark.
I don't think things like the Freeza, Cell and Buu Sagas could be described as being part of "a light hearted story". And personally, I'd like to have seen an Evangelion/Watchmen style deconstruction of the Shonen genre.
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Scarz wrote:Like using a flamethrower to kill an ant.
Hey, a lv.100 Charizard vs a wild lv.4 Caterpie. It happens.

Michsi
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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Michsi » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:18 am

I don't think things like the Freeza, Cell and Buu Sagas could be described as being part of "a light hearted story". And personally, I'd like to have seen an Evangelion/Watchmen style deconstruction of the Shonen genre.
That's true, but they never go as far as Evangelion and the likes. It's mostly an action adventure story, that never delves deep into the psychological aspect of ,well, anything. I often found it a bit too shallow in certain places myself, but if the alternative is a "Song of Ice and Fire" approach, than I'd rather stick with the way the story is now.

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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:49 am

Scarz wrote:I would also love to know how Frank Miller and Alan Moore would handle the women of DB. I remember how both writers got into a bit of controversy about how they portrayed women in their comics, especially Miller.
No worse than how Toriyama did it. Yeah, Blooma's smart and contributes to the story in various arcs, but she's still entirely fanservice, wardrobe-wise, and Muten Roushi...the scene in the shower...yadda yadda.

The Silk Spectre II in Watchmen was a pretty decently portrayed and strong character, despite her revealing costume, reliance on the Superman of the story who she got into a relationship with at 16, and probably being the least likeable character due to her whining.

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Piccolo Daimao wrote:No, because Gokuu was never portrayed as an antihero, all that stupid selfish shit that he did always worked out in the end, and most of his enemies ended up becoming his closest friends. Throughout the series, Gokuu was depicted as a pure-hearted, incorruptible, happy-go-lucky hero who everyone counted on, despite being such an unreliable and self-absorbed Saiyan bastard.
That's what I said, same events without the shonen bullshit.
Well...yeahhhhh...
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And the Stockholm Syndrome relationship between Gohan and Piccolo was never actually explored; it's just a theory from real-life.


It doesn't have to be explored, because it simply is.
No, that's just an opinion, and Stockholm Syndrome goes deeper than that. Anyway, we've done this song and dance before, so let's not get into it now. I'm just saying that if Alan Moore had written Dragon Ball and, in your words, "without their Shounen bullshit", then it'd probably capitalize on that little strand and push it to the surface. Gohan would kind of be a broken child with psychological problems that somewhat contribute to his poor anger management (like in DBZ Abridged [paraphrased]: "My best friends are a 26-year-old shrimp and a green alien who constantly hits me. Still, it's not all that bad. At least they're around! Huh, where did that come from?").
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LiamKav
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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by LiamKav » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:18 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:The Silk Spectre II in Watchmen was a pretty decently portrayed and strong character, despite her revealing costume, reliance on the Superman of the story who she got into a relationship with at 16, and probably being the least likeable character due to her whining.
Bulma is far less fan-service than her reputation deserves. She tends towards short skirts and the odd bit of flashing, but she also spends large portions of the series dressed perfectly sensibly. Her entire time on Namek, and the whole of the Artificial Human and Cell arcs, for instance.

I've also not read Watchmen yet, but isn't there something about Silk Spectre II falling in love with her rapist, or something like that?

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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Michsi » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:28 am

LiamKav wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:The Silk Spectre II in Watchmen was a pretty decently portrayed and strong character, despite her revealing costume, reliance on the Superman of the story who she got into a relationship with at 16, and probably being the least likeable character due to her whining.
Bulma is far less fan-service than her reputation deserves. She tends towards short skirts and the odd bit of flashing, but she also spends large portions of the series dressed perfectly sensibly. Her entire time on Namek, and the whole of the Artificial Human and Cell arcs, for instance.

I've also not read Watchmen yet, but isn't there something about Silk Spectre II falling in love with her rapist, or something like that?
I just wanted to mention this. Sure , Bulma got some heavy fanservice scenes in the beginning, but that pretty much stops as early as the 22nd iirc. I can't really remember if there was anything signicantly fanservice-y after the scene where Krillin flashes her breast at Roshi to help Yamcha.

Now, there are other aspects rearding how the DB women are portrayed that can be discusses, like how, for instance, there isn't a real female fighter amoung the main heroes, but that another thing.

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Re: If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:31 am

Thought of another way that DB would be changed if Alan Moore, Frank Miller or another gritty/noir graphic novel artist wrote it. Kame-sennin would be a sexually frustrated serial rapist with deep-seated psychological problems due to his uncontrollable libido and mental/emotional stress from the intense discipline of his martial arts and status as "the Muten Roushi". However, his reputation would've gone down in years after he'd been exposed for his sex crimes, but Gokuu and Kuririn, the former not knowing and being borderline retarded, the latter deluding himself that it's just media lies and both of them being largely naive and uncaring children, still go to train under him anyway.

In fact, pretty much everyone, just like Batman, his enemies, and the superheroes in Watchmen, would be fucked in the head. If I'm going to be gritty for gritty's sake (that might not necessarily be how Moore or Miller write their stories, since I don't know that much about them), you might as well say that Blooma was molested by her playboy, philanthropist and alcoholic father Dr. Brief when she was a child and her mother never noticed or did anything about it because she herself was trapped in an abusive relationship with him and often abandoned her daughter to hit on younger men.

Blooma's abuse at the hands of her father, who was meant to be the only man she could 100% trust, affected her view of men, so she continuously whored herself out to men, especially bad boys. She'd have definite "daddy issues", using them for both sex and security. This is where the baddest boy of them all, Vegeta, comes in, compared to a relative softie (who wasn't even a bandit anymore) and overall loser Yamcha. If he actually did cheat on her, she would've stayed with him because she literally likes bastards, but since he's mostly shy around them and strongly against infidelity, she gave him the boot.
LiamKav wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:The Silk Spectre II in Watchmen was a pretty decently portrayed and strong character, despite her revealing costume, reliance on the Superman of the story who she got into a relationship with at 16, and probably being the least likeable character due to her whining.
Bulma is far less fan-service than her reputation deserves. She tends towards short skirts and the odd bit of flashing, but she also spends large portions of the series dressed perfectly sensibly. Her entire time on Namek, and the whole of the Artificial Human and Cell arcs, for instance.

I've also not read Watchmen yet, but isn't there something about Silk Spectre II falling in love with her rapist, or something like that?
OK, well, especially before the Freeza arc (I guess, when she was still pretty young, so that's understandable), she spent a lot of time in revealing clothing and, before the 22nd TB arc (around the time DB shifted to a more serious tone; note that there were no more gags involving a naked, penis-exposed and/or randomly peeing Gokuu, although that could be more to do with the fact that he was now 15 and might have developed to the point that it wouldn't be cute anymore), various scenes where she got her tits or panties out, inadvertently or not, to a couple of main male characters in the series, mostly serial sexual harasser Kame-sennin.

And no, that's her mother, the first Silk Spectre. She was a burlesque dancer and loves her sex symbol status, despite not seeming to have any actual fighting skills, since there was an article about her criminals basically lining up to be arrested by her, and the fact that she had a good agent and the only reason she became a costumed crimefighter was for the money and, in an interview it's hinted that it was a "sex thing" too. Something like that.).

The Silk Spectre II - who was pretty much coerced by her mother to carry on her career and sex symbol status (even down to the costume, which I found a bit odd that a mother would encourage her daughter to go out fighting dangerous criminals dressed like that), was shown to have genuine fighting skills and a strong character - was pretty much the complete opposite of her and was disgusted at the porn magazines that her mother's fans sent to her.

But it's much more complex than that, since they had something of a rocky relationship that isn't entirely explored and she still feels guilty about herself, other than the fact that he gave the gift of her daughter. You really need to read it to understand.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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