'Controlling one's battle power' Confusion

[Kaboom]

Yeah, it seems that one's maximum "available" battle power being lowered from exertion/injury is something that happens to everyone and is expected. But being able to willingly lower and raise it yourself is a very rare trick.

[Fox666]

I don't see how being fatigued affects anything for them. Dodoria's battle power reading would be "X" after being smashed to a pulp, the same as it would be before his fight. Again, it seems Toriyama's entire point for writing these characters the way he did and explaining how scouters work and how the Earthlings are different than everyone else was to reenforce this idea that "villains who can't control their ki levels will always be X no matter what".

The likes of Vegeta and Freeza are surprised that the Earthlings can control their battle power at will, that doesn't mean they won't go down when fatigued.

The manga is quite vague in that subject, but there are some clues, for example it seems Jhess and Batta find it natural that Gohan battle power went to zero after Recoome broke his neck.

[VegettoEX]

The manga is quite vague in that subject, but there are some clues, for example it seems Jhess and Batta find it natural that Gohan battle power went to zero after Recoome broke his neck.

I totally agree with you, which is why I later added that I think if you analyze it too much, the internal consistency breaks down and nothing works at all. At the same time, could we assume that an injury to that degree which brings you to a near-death state would pretty consistently have a scouter read you as "0"...? Gotta be some other cases where the same thing happens.

[Bussani]

All of Vegeta and Nappa's dialogue seems to indicate that their battle powers don't change at all. They say things like, "These people change their battle powers when they start fighting," and, "This reading of 5,000 may only be for starters because the people here can alter their figures." If it was just that they and Freeza's men couldn't suppress themselves below a certain point, but still altered their figures somewhat when they started fighting, then they shouldn't be saying it like it's something exclusive to the Earthlings.

And yet both Nappa and Vegeta powered up before their fights. In fact Vegeta went from trading blows with a Kaio-Ken Goku, to effortlessly owning him by powering up. This obviously indicates that they have a resting state and a powered up state.

Well, yeah. That apparent contradiction is the whole point of this thread.

So your telling me all of Freeza's men such as Dodoria and Zarbon are constantly at 22,000, without showing signs of fatigue or strain ? If you answer is yes, then why do the Z-senshi need to power up if they can constantly maintain this BP without any strain ?

I'd guess that the number they're walking around with is natural to them. Maybe only people who can control and raise their ki beyond these comfortable levels can get strained from it? Like Freeza when he goes to his "100% full power", or anyone else who can really push both their bodies and their ki to their limits. That's why I've never looked at it like a character has a full power and anything below that is "suppressed"; rather, I think a character's resting power falls somewhere in the middle, and they can either force it down (suppressing to almost nothing) or up (powering up as far as they can) from there. People who can't control their ki just have to hope their resting power is enough, because that's what they're stuck with.

But that's just one interpretation.

At the same time, could we assume that an injury to that degree which brings you to a near-death state would pretty consistently have a scouter read you as "0"...? Gotta be some other cases where the same thing happens.

A similar example that comes to mind is where Freeza ripped off Nail's arm. After Nail grows a new one, Freeza looks at his scouter and notes that his battle power has fallen, then says it's because "he can regenerate, but can't recover the stamina he lost."

[Fox666]

People who can't control their ki just have to hope their resting power is enough, because that's what they're stuck with.

But it doesn't seems Vegeta got "stronger" after he learned to control his Ki, or at least he attributes his increase in power to the near-death experience.

Freeza looks at his scouter and notes that his battle power has fallen

I think that's not in the manga.

[Bussani]

People who can't control their ki just have to hope their resting power is enough, because that's what they're stuck with.

But it doesn't seems Vegeta got "stronger" after he learned to control his Ki, or at least he attributes his increase in power to the near-death experience.

I suppose that's true, but there are a few ways we could explain that if we really felt like it.

Freeza looks at his scouter and notes that his battle power has fallen

I think that's not in the manga.[/quote]
It is.

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P10.5
Context: after Nail regrows his arm
Freeza: “This is a surprise! So you can regenerate? But even though you’ve restored yourself, it changes nothing. Besides, it seems that you can’t recover your stamina. Your battle power has fallen from what it was before…”

[Saiga]

Apart from the Nail example, are their any cases where someone's battle power is noted as having been lowered by receiving damage?

[Bussani]

Apart from the Nail example, are their any cases where someone's battle power is noted as having been lowered by receiving damage?

There are some lines, like Gohan noting that Vegeta was still incredibly strong despite being weakened by Goku, or Goku pointing out that Cell's ki fell quite a bit after his warp kamehameha, but those aren't explicitly mentioning battle powers (i.e. the numerical values scouters give), so I don't know if we can count them. Off the top of my head, the only other example I can think of where the numerical values drop from damage is when Gohan's neck is broken, but that one's iffy since he was almost certainly in the middle of dying.

Of course, if wearing weighted clothing can reduce your battle power, surely it's not impossible for the battle powers of Freeza's men to be reduced by some factors.

[Son_Gohan]

There are some lines, like Gohan noting that Vegeta was still incredibly strong despite being weakened by Goku, or Goku pointing out that Cell's ki fell quite a bit after his warp kamehameha, but those aren't explicitly mentioning battle powers (i.e. the numerical values scouters give), so I don't know if we can count them.

Aren't "Ki" and "Battle power" basically synonymous for the same thing?

Vegeta still uses the term 'battle power' even during the Cell arc, despite having nothing to do with a scouter.

[Bussani]

Aren't "Ki" and "Battle power" basically synonymous for the same thing?

Basically yes, but the question of whether there's some subtle difference between how a person registers ki and how a scouter registers battle powers is kind of what this whole thread has been about, so I'm trying to be as specific as possible.

[Kingdom Heartless]

This always ticks me off... sure, it makes it more dramatic, but it just comes across as a shoddy plot-hole.

[Mjb1985]

I don't really see an issue with it. The Shaolin Temple Monks spend a bit of time on focus and bringing their chi forth. I see that as the same scenario.

The only difference being a scouter would be able to tell how strong you were even if you didn't bring out your chi.

Funny thing is , which is probably not intended, the Z cast using a scouter would actually be superior to them using their ki sensing here in terms of determining how strong Nappa and Vegeta were.

They are fooled by their constant " surfacing of ki " meanwhile , the scouter wouldn't be. Definitely not intended IMO by AT but considering everything it sounds true.

[Xyex]

So your telling me all of Freeza's men such as Dodoria and Zarbon are constantly at 22,000, without showing signs of fatigue or strain ? If you answer is yes, then why do the Z-senshi need to power up if they can constantly maintain this BP without any strain ?

Yes, they are. Everyone in Freeza's army is always at their maximum power. Powering up isn't down because their full power induces any sort of strain. It's done because they supress their powers to lower points in order to conserve energy. Thus, to use their full power, they then have to power up.

Apart from the Nail example, are their any cases where someone's battle power is noted as having been lowered by receiving damage?

There are some lines, like Gohan noting that Vegeta was still incredibly strong despite being weakened by Goku, or Goku pointing out that Cell's ki fell quite a bit after his warp kamehameha, but those aren't explicitly mentioning battle powers (i.e. the numerical values scouters give), so I don't know if we can count them. Off the top of my head, the only other example I can think of where the numerical values drop from damage is when Gohan's neck is broken, but that one's iffy since he was almost certainly in the middle of dying.

There's also Piccolo's power that Bulma picked up, following the Raditz fight. It's been a while since he fought Raditz and his power's still off from his max.

I don't really see an issue with it. The Shaolin Temple Monks spend a bit of time on focus and bringing their chi forth. I see that as the same scenario.

The only difference being a scouter would be able to tell how strong you were even if you didn't bring out your chi.

Funny thing is , which is probably not intended, the Z cast using a scouter would actually be superior to them using their ki sensing here in terms of determining how strong Nappa and Vegeta were.

They are fooled by their constant " surfacing of ki " meanwhile , the scouter wouldn't be. Definitely not intended IMO by AT but considering everything it sounds true.

Yeah. They don't realize just how powerful Nappa actually is until he draws it all out, and Piccolo's only assuming that Vegeta is stronger because he's the one giving orders. So, clearly, for what ever reason, they can't tell exactly how much power the two of them have. At this point in the series, though, ki sensing is still a pretty fledgling ability. Like how Tien could levitate in DB but not actually 'fly' yet.

It seems likely that this early form of ki sensing couldn't 'read' anything beneath the surface. So only ki that had been harnessed for use by the user was detectable. Though later it seems to have advanced and they can sense the entirety of ki a person is generating, making their abilities as good as scouters.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Apart from the Nail example, are their any cases where someone's battle power is noted as having been lowered by receiving damage?

There are some lines, like Gohan noting that Vegeta was still incredibly strong despite being weakened by Goku, or Goku pointing out that Cell's ki fell quite a bit after his warp kamehameha, but those aren't explicitly mentioning battle powers (i.e. the numerical values scouters give), so I don't know if we can count them. Off the top of my head, the only other example I can think of where the numerical values drop from damage is when Gohan's neck is broken, but that one's iffy since he was almost certainly in the middle of dying.

There's also Piccolo's power that Bulma picked up, following the Raditz fight. It's been a while since he fought Raditz and his power's still off from his max.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but that "329" is never actually explained in the manga. We don't know whether or not it's because Piccolo was still somehow recovering from the battle with Raditz (if he had weights off during that reading), or if his power had increased from that fight and/or through subsequent training (if he had his weights on). Or maybe Toriyama just forgot his BP and gave him a new one, like he forgot that he'd already named Pilaf's henchmen "Soba" and renamed him "Shuu".

[Xyex]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but that "329" is never actually explained in the manga. We don't know whether or not it's because Piccolo was still somehow recovering from the battle with Raditz (if he had weights off during that reading), or if his power had increased from that fight and/or through subsequent training (if he had his weights on).

True, it's not really explained, but I think it more likely its a recovery level than a new weighted level. I just can't see his power increasing that much just from that fight. I know this is Dragonball and Toriyama we're talking about, but it's inconsistent with everything before and after it. Just doesn't feel right within the greater context of the series, IMO.

Or maybe Toriyama just forgot his BP and gave him a new one, like he forgot that he'd already named Pilaf's henchmen "Soba" and renamed him "Shuu".

Admittedly, this is most likely the real reason.

Still, within the context of the series, I see it more likely as Piccolo's power's still down from his fight.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but that "329" is never actually explained in the manga. We don't know whether or not it's because Piccolo was still somehow recovering from the battle with Raditz (if he had weights off during that reading), or if his power had increased from that fight and/or through subsequent training (if he had his weights on).

True, it's not really explained, but I think it more likely its a recovery level than a new weighted level. I just can't see his power increasing that much just from that fight. I know this is Dragonball and Toriyama we're talking about, but it's inconsistent with everything before and after it. Just doesn't feel right within the greater context of the series, IMO.

Well, it's only 7 points; it's not that much of a power increase, especially compared to, well, most of the other ones before and after. During the fight with Blue, Kuririn commented that Gokuu had become stronger since the tournament, despite the fact that he'd only fought a bunch of RRA goons that, most of whom, were far beneath him in strength anyway.

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

Or maybe Toriyama just forgot his BP and gave him a new one, like he forgot that he'd already named Pilaf's henchmen "Soba" and renamed him "Shuu".

Admittedly, this is most likely the real reason.

Still, within the context of the series, I see it more likely as Piccolo's power's still down from his fight.

Yeah, maybe.

[Fox666]

Personally I think the power just floats a little. It's like trying to measure the amount of water in a river, after some time it's very unlikely you are going to get the same exact same number.

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

If Piccolo gained 7 points for each day of training, after one year he would be at 3,000. Oh, look!

[Xyex]

Well, it's only 7 points; it's not that much of a power increase, especially compared to, well, most of the other ones before and after. During the fight with Blue, Kuririn commented that Gokuu had become stronger since the tournament, despite the fact that he'd only fought a bunch of RRA goons that, most of whom, were far beneath him in strength anyway.

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

Goku may have been fighting low level goons, but he was fighting a lot of them. Plus, he's a Saiya-jin, and while it was never mentioned in DB itself, only Z, I figure the main reason he was stronger between the Budokai and the Blue fight was his recovery. He'd gone through a lot during the tournament, and especially during the fight with Roshi.

And, as I remember it, didn't Bulma get the scouter working less than a day after the fight? That wouldn't have been much time to train, either.

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

If Piccolo gained 7 points for each day of training, after one year he would be at 3,000. Oh, look!

Except that's from a single fight, not a day of training. More like 20 minutes of exertion. In which case it wouldn't be 7 points a day, it would be closer to 100, and that's a weighted increase, the unweighted would be even higher, which dosen't work at all.

[Mjb1985]

@ PD

Goku most likelye received a zenkai from his Muscle Tower adventure. Remember he was shot point blank and was clearly very injured, #8 is carrying him out like a baby.

So I definitely wouldn't use that as logic to as why Piccollo went from 322-329. Piccolo is not a Saiyan after all.

Lighter weights works just fine. No reason to get oddly complicated.

[matt0044]

Piccolo is not a Saiyan after all.

Sonic says otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFTvabHR-9E