Gohan didn't go SSJ2 when attacking Boo's ball?

[Saiga]

That's fine, but you do acknowledge that Gohan has an aura of a SSjin when fighting Dabura.

Nope.

But he does, you know...

No, he doesn't. I just see an aura, not specifically "the SS1 aura".

[Mystic Gohan]

No, he doesn't. I just see an aura, not specifically "the SS1 aura".

It's an aura that is consistently seen as the SSjin 1 aura throughout the manga.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

At one point, there was absolutely nothing that could get me to change my mind on Gohan being a Super Saiyan. That is, until I sat back and just re-read the Boo saga, analyzing nearly every detail on the matter.

Now I'm more open-minded. This debate often goes in circles, so what I like to do is look at it from a simple POV: The story, to me, implies that Gohan used Super Saiyan 2 after the Budokai. That's my interpretation. I could get into the specifics, but it's been overdone. The art, however, shows him fighting as a Super Saiyan. Rather than try to get into AT's mind, I just prefer to go with what makes the most sense to me at that point. Gohan fighting at a level less than Super Saiyan 2 after easily displaying it when it didn't matter just seems odd. Then again, the entire Bobbidi saga could be described as odd.

[Saiga]

No, he doesn't. I just see an aura, not specifically "the SS1 aura".

It's an aura that is consistently seen as the SSjin 1 aura throughout the manga.

Or, it could just be a weakened SS2 aura as Daimao has speculated. It looks like a SS1 aura but since he's not a SS1 that's not what it is.

[Mystic Gohan]

No, he doesn't. I just see an aura, not specifically "the SS1 aura".

It's an aura that is consistently seen as the SSjin 1 aura throughout the manga.

Or, it could just be a weakened SS2 aura as Daimao has speculated. It looks like a SS1 aura but since he's not a SS1 that's not what it is.

He speculated, but as I said earlier, the manga is consistent with what a SSjin (1) aura looks like.

[Son_Gohan]

I think it would be purposely obtuse of Toriyama to make Super Saiyan 2 something that can sometimes be indistinguishable from Super Saiyan. Every time it's confirmed that someone's Super Saiyan 2, they look it. I mean, it's one way to interpret it, but I can't imagine it's what Toriyama was going for.

The form has been referred as simply "Super Saiyan" at times. So even going by name, it hasn't been free from ambiguity. If he's demonstrated not to place great effort in setting them apart to that degree, then personally I don't consider it very surprising for that to carry over in how he draws.

Kaboom, as I'm sure others can attest to, viewing the story from a broader scope is one reason why this debate still persists; it doesn't lead to an ordered, clean conclusion which everyone can agree to. Your post itself would still raise questions that would require clarity.

[Saiga]

He speculated, but as I said earlier, the manga is consistent with what a SSjin (1) aura looks like.

Not really. It changes over the course of the series, and even gains lightning sparks in Neko Majin Z.

[Dabooyaka]

Maybe Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 off panel, and by the time we see him and Dabra, they had been at it for a while?

[Fox666]

Ugh. The SSj/SSj2 Gohan thing again. Okay kids, pull up a chair.

Know what you should do? Stop thinking so hard about it. Instead of trying to factor in all the tiny little implications in dialogue, and supporting or ignoring the conflicting guidebook tidbits (yes, there is a conflict, deal with it)... Just step back and look at things from a more wide narrative perspective.

In the early Majin Boo arc, Super Saiyan 2 is still the big new hotness. We see Gohan, the only person so far to pull it off, show it off again with a big full-page spread to emphasize this.

Super Saiyan 2 is what beat Cell, the last big villain. There's a clear "SSj2 is stronger than Cell" precedent established, both in statements about Gohan 7 years prior AND Goku and Vegeta's dismissive view of Dabra (which we later find out can most obviously and easily be attributed to them each having Super Saiyan 2 up their sleeves). Dabra, of course, is quickly established as a Cell-level villain as soon as we see him do anything. He falls into the same "beatable by Super Saiyan 2" category just like Cell.

So all through out the early Majin Boo arc, during the Tournament and the sequence in Bobbidi's ship and what-not, we can see there's a clear power chain being set up, all leading up to the appearance of Majin Boo himself.

First off, and sort of related, you've got characters like Piccolo and Kaioshin, and Android 18 and the kids, all serving to demonstrate the "stronger than Freeza" and "stronger than the Androids" levels from the prior arcs, below the new "standard" tier of power at work here. You've even got other, less-important lackey villains like Pui Pui and Yakon in there, too.

Then, Gohan is Super Saiyan 1, fighting Dabra at the "Cell level." Goku and Vegeta are at Super Saiyan 2, fighting at the "stronger than Cell" level. This all builds up to the debut of Majin Boo, who, ZOMG, is even more powerful than that, at a "even stronger than stronger than Cell" level.

Let me simplify this with a list of sorts:

WEAKER THAN CELL BUT STILL PRETTY DANG STRONG

• Android 18
  Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks
  Piccolo
  Kaioshin

ABOUT AS STRONG AS CELL

• Cell
  Dabra
  Super Saiyan Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan

STRONGER THAN CELL

• Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan

EVEN STRONGER THAN STRONGER THAN CELL

• Majin Boo

See what I mean? The message here is a simple but effective one. Things only get complicated when you let them be complicated. When you back up a few steps and look at things from a broader, story- and common sense-based perspective, things are a lot more clear.


Also, the art don't lie, biznatches.

Great post. You should expect that someone would ask "which Cell", but I will guess you ommited it intentionally.

[Nazi Cola]

For what it's worth, the Daizenshuu that seem to contradict each other have different parties involved each time, so that may be why the contradictions arise in the first place. For instance, one party puts X information in and then another party puts Y information in, and that doesn't gel together.

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8383049/1/

(I hope it's OK to link to that thread.)

[Gozar]

I don't understand why everyone seems to have so much trouble understanding why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura or to attack Buu's egg.

Before Gohan transforms, he has an inner thought remembering Goku telling him to fight like he was against Cell. Gohan then states that he "can't be like he was back then" and proceeds to tranform into an SSJ1.

It's pretty clear to me that Gohan is afraid of losing himself and becoming arrogant again if he uses SSJ2. Like the flood of power will make him overconfident in a real fight and he won't be able to make the right decisions for the greater good of the world.

This is probably one of Toriyama's biggest examples of real character depth and it constantly goes unnoticed.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 2 and Gohan losing his mind through rage are two different things. During the Cell Games, Gohan became a Super Saiyan 2 once his rage took over. In the Boo saga, we've seen Gohan become a Super Saiyan 2 without much issue a few chapters before when he was only asked to change into a Super Saiyan, so I don't see why he'd be afraid of "losing himself" when using it. Especially with the amount of stuff on the line--like restoring Piccolo and Krillin back to normal.

Even Kid Gohan was aware of how foolish he was for not finishing Cell yrs before. I doubt he'd make the same mistake twice. There's also the fact that Kaioshin actually says Kibito was never around to see the full-extent of Gohan's power.

[Fox666]

To be fair, Kaioshin didn't even expected Gohan to be able to hold his own against Darbra. So it seems his transformation at the Budokai wasn't enough for them to have an accurate idea of Gohan's power. That was also hinted in this line:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

[dprez]

snip*

Another great post by Kaboom.

Dabura ain't at Ssj2 level. This is what I have always believed.

I don't understand why everyone seems to have so much trouble understanding why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura or to attack Buu's egg.

I kind of don't either....

To be fair, Kaioshin didn't even expected Gohan to be able to hold his own against Darbra. So it seems his transformation at the Budokai wasn't enough for them to have an accurate idea of Gohan's power. That was also hinted in this line:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Yes. That line from Kaioshin telling Kibito how he missed out on Gohan's awesome power cannot be taken so literal.

[Fionordequester]

But Kaboom, what reason is there for Gohan not to use SSJ2 if he had no problem doing it in front of the Supreme Kai? And how would he be able to fight off someone as strong as Cell at only SSJ1 level when he couldn't even fight him off as a child SSJ1? We're told Gohan has only gotten weaker since then, so to me, logic would dictate that Dabura would've wiped the floor with Gohan...

No, it makes much more sense to me that Dabura was around the level of Super Perfect Cell, and while Teen SSJ2 Gohan was slightly stronger than Super Perfect Cell, the Adult SSJ2 Gohan has slipped to being slighter weaker than Super Perfect Cell was, and would have lost the big Kamehameha battle had he done it again as an adult, full power or not...

But really, what reason would Gohan have to not go SSJ2? It can't have been fear of his own arrogance if he wasn't afraid to transform in front of the Supreme Kai, right?

[Fox666]

And how would he be able to fight off someone as strong as Cell

Goku words are that Darbra is "probably about as strong" as Cell, so there may be a difference beetween them.

at only SSJ1 level when he couldn't even fight him off as a child SSJ1? We're told Gohan has only gotten weaker since then, so to me, logic would dictate that Dabura would've wiped the floor with Gohan...

He could. While Cell didn't used all of his power against Gohan, at least he used all of his speed, and yet Gohan was able to keep up with that.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”



Which is not so different from the fight beetween Gohan and Darbra.

No, it makes much more sense to me that Dabura was around the level of Super Perfect Cell, and while Teen SSJ2 Gohan was slightly stronger than Super Perfect Cell, the Adult SSJ2 Gohan has slipped to being slighter weaker than Super Perfect Cell was, and would have lost the big Kamehameha battle had he done it again as an adult, full power or not...

It doesn't make more sense because you are only making everything more complicated.

Like Kaboon pointed out, Gohan and Darbra happened to be around the level of a Super Saiyan. Majin Boo knocked them in an instant. Then Vegeta show up and is in a complete different level, and managed to keep up with Boo for a while.

But really, what reason would Gohan have to not go SSJ2? It can't have been fear of his own arrogance if he wasn't afraid to transform in front of the Supreme Kai, right?

What was the reason for the Saiyans not transforming in Grade II during the Cell Games? Why Gotenks didn't used Super Saiyan 2 during most of his fight with Evil Boo? Why Goku and Vegeta used only their Super Saiyan forms while inside of Evil Boo? Why they didn't used the Potara again?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Most of the time, at least when comparisons are made, people agree that the reference is often considering the guy at their strongest level. That's what most do with Freeza when taking Kaioshin's quote into consideration. With Dabra, it's often the holding-back version of Cell people think Goku's talking about.

Then again, Goku later states Dabra is much stronger than he originally thought. I dunno.

What was the reason for the Saiyans not transforming in Grade II during the Cell Games?

No telling. Since Vegeta and Trunks were way stronger than those forms at the Cell Games, they likely discarded them because the form was most likely flawed.

Why Gotenks didn't used Super Saiyan 2 during most of his fight with Evil Boo?

C'mon, Fox. Gotenks was only focused on whipping out the Super Saiyan 3 form. Not to mention he was hardly serious that entire time.

Why Goku and Vegeta used only their Super Saiyan forms while inside of Evil Boo?

They weren't looking to fight Super Boo there. Goku was trying to get out of him. He was so focused on the idea of merging, as shown by his dialogue.

Why they didn't used the Potara again?

Saiyan pride and stuff.

Gohan not using Super Saiyan 2 when it mattered is plain stupid. Especially when he displayed the form with no issue whatsoever when he wasn't even asked to do so, but somehow can't when he has to defeat Dabra? He was pretty shitty in his fight with Dabra, so it's not like he was having fun there. That's really all there is to it.

[Fox666]

Most of the time, at least when comparisons are made, people agree that the reference is often considering the guy at their strongest level. That's what most do with Freeza when taking Kaioshin's quote into consideration. With Dabra, it's often the holding-back version of Cell people think Goku's talking about.

Not necessarily. For example, Freeza's Mecha form is not take in account most of the time. That's because Freeza "true self" is his 100%.

Then again, Goku later states Dabra is much stronger than he originally thought. I dunno.

No, he said Darbra was better than he tought because he can use magic.

Gohan not using Super Saiyan 2 when it mattered is plain stupid.

It's not like all characters are stupid in the Boo saga... like Goku who didn't kill Boo when he had the chance, allowing him to eat himself and getting a whole lot stronger.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not necessarily. For example, Freeza's Mecha form is not take in account most of the time. That's because Freeza "true self" is his 100%.

So Cell at full-power would be his "true-self" here, yes?

No, he said Darbra was better than he tought because he can use magic.

Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

It's not like all characters are stupid in the Boo saga... like Goku who didn't kill Boo when he had the chance, allowing him to eat himself and getting a whole lot stronger.

Couldn't agree more. However, even as silly as his reasoning is, at least it's there.

[Son_Gohan]

I don't understand why everyone seems to have so much trouble understanding why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura or to attack Buu's egg.

Before Gohan transforms, he has an inner thought remembering Goku telling him to fight like he was against Cell. Gohan then states that he "can't be like he was back then" and proceeds to tranform into an SSJ1.

It's pretty clear to me that Gohan is afraid of losing himself and becoming arrogant again if he uses SSJ2. Like the flood of power will make him overconfident in a real fight and he won't be able to make the right decisions for the greater good of the world.

This is probably one of Toriyama's biggest examples of real character depth and it constantly goes unnoticed.

Well the reason many don't share that viewpoint is because it doesn't comply with how he's shown to treat the form prior to then. Someone who is psychologically scarred from that transformation wouldn't attempt to use it needlessly and of their own accord, as Gohan had at the tournament. Even considering the event that supposedly traumatized him, Gohan did not hesitate to transform right back after Cell returned to Earth.

Looking at Herms' translation, you could even say that he wanted to be like he was back then:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”