Buff Boo

[hleV]

It was used to gauge the strength of all previous Kaioshins.

Oh, so you have an opinion? That's great. If you want others to consider it, bring an argument.

[Bussani]

Does one really have to come up with an argument to get people to consider their opinion? If you ask me, you just have to explain your opinion, give people enough information to consider it, and then they'll agree or disagree with it. Maybe that's what you mean by "argument", but in that case, I don't see how Bando could explain his opinion any more clearly. It's pretty self explanatory. "No Kaioshin who ever tried could pull the sword out; Gohan pulls it out, amazing the two present and implying he's surpassed the Kaioshin in general."

[hleV]

The fact that South Kaioshin strengthened Boo so much outweights the theory of South Kaioshin being weaker than SS Gohan. To me at least, as I don't go with Boo's absorptions being anything other than addition (unless it's a special case like Boo eating Boo). SS Gohan may have been stronger than most of the Kaioshin that have ever existed, and definitely the ones who had failed to pull out the Z Sword. But stronger than the strongest of the four last ones? I don't see such an implication.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The fact that South Kaioshin strengthened Boo so much outweights the theory of South Kaioshin being weaker than SS Gohan. To me at least, as I don't go with Boo's absorptions being anything other than addition (unless it's a special case like Boo eating Boo).

Well my opinion is:
I think the Kaioshins have a negative effect, this is kind of hinted at with the Potara, Dabura's statement, and Daikaioshin, of dividing Buu's power however he can reverse the effects if his influence is superior. Kid Buu's influence was superior to Southern Kaioshin and as such it multiplied his power. This is how Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu IMO.

[Bussani]

The fact that South Kaioshin strengthened Boo so much outweights the theory of South Kaioshin being weaker than SS Gohan. To me at least

So your counter to his opinion is your own opinion. And that's fine.

[hleV]

The fact that South Kaioshin strengthened Boo so much outweights the theory of South Kaioshin being weaker than SS Gohan. To me at least

So your counter to his opinion is your own opinion. And that's fine.

Bando tried to say that the numerous Kaioshin' failure of pulling out the Z Sword means that none of the Kaioshin whatsoever could pull it out. I don't see it that way. If he wants to prove things, he needs to bring a valid argument, rather than his own interpretation of things. Otherwise he needs to accept it being subjective.

EDIT: Damn, I actually didn't mean that one needs to bring an argument for others to consider his opinion. I meant that one needs to bring an argument in order to prove something as fact, otherwise it's just an opinion. I formulated that sentence wrong

[Bussani]

Okay, fair enough. I guess I just didn't think that Bando was trying to pass it off as a fact. Even if he didn't say "this is my opinion," we both clearly understood that it was.

[Fox666]

deleted

[hleV]

I guess that's the problem.

There's no problem. I'm under an opinion which is completely valid - there's nothing to at least partially prove it wrong.

Boo absorbed his own half to become stronger, and Dai Kaioshin actually lowered his power. So it seems a stretch to reduce Boo absorbing ability in a basic predictable equation.

It all started with Dai Kaioshin. And Dai Kaioshin is a really strange folk, when you think about it. There were four Kaioshin, pretty strong ones, yet Dai Kaioshin, who is specified to be fat and gentle (unlike the other Kaioshin) and weaker than at least South Kaioshin (who is said to be the strongest), is above the other Kaioshin in status/position. It implies to me that he's in some way more special than the normal Kaioshin. Out of all Boo's absorbees, things only get complicated when Dai Kaioshin is involved: when Boo absorbs him, Boo changes drastically in both power and mind; when the evil part of Boo eats the good part, his "configuration" changes as well - that's because Dai Kaioshin has fucked Boo up in the first place. With normal absorptions the result seems, well, normal. And I really don't see any implication that it's something more (or less, for that matter) than an addition of power/mind. In fact, to me it wouldn't make any sense if Boo somehow became more powerful than the combination of himself and his absorbee. If that was magically the case, why not magically strengthen himself without absorbing anyone...

Kaioshin was flabbergasted when he realized that he could sense Super Saiyan 3 Goku Ki form the afterlife, so I don't think he has ever seen something like that before.

You'll have to elaborate on how SS3 Goku's power catching up to the Kaioshin Realm implies anything about South Kaioshin. Are you saying that South Kaioshin at some point in time had gone to the lower world, powered up, and his power didn't catch up to the Kaioshin Realm?

[Bussani]

And I really don't see any implication that it's something more (or less, for that matter) than an addition of power/mind. In fact, to me it wouldn't make any sense if Boo somehow became more powerful than the combination of himself and his absorbee. If that was magically the case, why not magically strengthen himself without absorbing anyone...

I think that's like asking: "if fusion can make you stronger than the sum of your parts, why can't there just be a dance that magically makes you stronger by yourself?"

[hleV]

Firstly, unlike with Fusion, Boo's absorptions have never been implied to be anything special (except for the obviously unordinary cases mentioned earlier). To me it's reason good enough to not complicate things. If for you it's not, I don't mind - complicate it as much as you want.

Secondly,

• Fusion Dance and Potara "transforms" two bodies into one.
• Boo's normal absorptions "add" absorbees' bodies to Boo's body. This results in either an addition of power/mind, a weakening of power/mind in the case of absorbing Dai Kaioshin, or a re-configuration of Dai Kaioshin's influence (Boo eating Boo case).

If you two don't see the huge difference between Fusions and Boo's absorbtions, then I guess it's time to end this argument right away, agreeing to disagree.

[Bussani]

I guess we will have to disagree, then. To me, it's insisting that it has to be straight addition that makes things more complicated, because I'm almost sure Toriyama never put that much thought into it. I think he just made characters as strong as he wanted to, so to me, if the story implied Gohan was stronger than South Kaioshin (which is open to interpretation, of course), I would put more importance on that than whether some battle powers added up "correctly". In other words, I think the simplest way of looking at it is the way that's the most flexible, so as to better match Toriyama's writing style and general vagueness.

But that's just me.