The general American fanbase really annoys me.

[chaosyoshimage]

Yeah, while arguing with someone IRL about whether the Kai dub was better than Funimation's Z dub doesn't bother me, when someone tries to pass of Hoshi or whatever as real or that Toriyama was going to end the series at Point X, it does. In my first week of college someone was doing both of those things, I tried to set him straight, but it was difficult to get a word in edgewise, especially since I'm not the best at social situations and I was still new.

[ABED]

The issue with the older dubs was that they added such cheesy lines and stupid jokes. I really hate it when people try to dub shows and try to make them appeal to for an American audience. Other anime dubs will try to stay close to the Japanese scripts and don't treat the viewers stupid.

I'm with you on the last statement, but translating a work across cultures is an art moreso than a science. For instance, Kaio-sama's jokes are based on puns, but they are puns based on japanese words. So, how do you go about translating those jokes?

As long as I feel there's an attempt to keep the scripts faithful to what the intent and the characters, then I'm okay. What I'm asking for is what we got with Kai, Movies 1-3, and Movie 8. They were all very accurate. That should appeal to any culture. I don't see how making Freeza vaguely sexual and androgynous is supposed to appeal to FUNi's target demo.

Getting across certain characteristics such as Goku being a hick would be a simple matter of making his speech VERY informal, and saying things like "gonna, fightin', talkin'" and maybe a few "ain'ts" for good measure. Trunks should be polite and have good grammar. Not everything in Japanese can be easily translated, but as long as I see a genuine effort to remain respectful to the source material, I'm happy.

Additionally, unless you actually KNOW Japanese, how do you know the acting's better? Do you just like the sounds? That always confused me.

I get your point, but I think while there are many subtlties that non-Japanese speakers will miss, I think you can get the general idea of the performance and judge it reasonably well.

[VegettoEX]

The example I always point to is the original Japanese version of the Hana Yori Dango anime. You don't have to speak Japanese to know that all the guys are just man-idol-of-the-moment hack actors that can't read a line to save their lives. Some aspects of acting are universal.

I've gotten to the point where complaining about things (or rather, fans... or types of fans) that annoy me just makes me feel hypocritical and awful, so I try not to do it at all . Except that Japanese fan we talked about last week on the podcast... those people need call-outs.

[rereboy]

The directors I know say that anime is meant to be enjoyed in the viewer's native language, because while a person is trying to read the subtitles, they're ignoring the art and subtleties of the show!

As a native of a country that subs 99% of foreign movies, series and the like, I find this notion ridiculous. Nobody in my country complains about that or finds that the subtitles are distracting the viewer from the art in any way, and we have our domestic shows in our language (without subtitles) right alongside the foreign shows on TV and other media, which means we are used to watching shows with subs and without subs daily.

The only people I've ever seen complain about subtitles are natives of countries who, as a rule, don't sub and are only used to dubs or their own language, rarely actually seeing shows with subtitles. What does that tell you?

[dbboxkaifan]

As a native of a country that subs 99% of foreign movies, series and the like, I find this notion ridiculous. Nobody in my country complains about that or finds that the subtitles are distracting the viewer from the art in any way, and we have our domestic shows in our language (without subtitles) right alongside the foreign shows on TV and other media, which means we are used to watching shows with subs and without subs daily.

The only people I've ever seen complain about subtitles are natives of countries who, as a rule, don't sub and are only used to dubs or their own language, rarely actually seeing shows with subtitles. What does that tell you?

I've given up on Portuguese TV and subtitled stuff because it's very inaccurate and I'd rather just watch it in its own language or with English script below the video (film/series).

If they were fansubs it would be understandable having mistakes, but they're official subtitles for God's sake!

ZON/MEO still don't permit its customers to turn off the subtitles or swap audio track, but whatevs, I rarely even watch it 'cos there's nothing worth watching. VOD services (Netflix, LOVEFiLM, Sky NOWTV, etc) are far superior and better.

LOVEFiLM doesn't have subtitles but they're working on it.

[kei17]

To me, some dogmatic acts and intolerance to subtitles of English speakers suggest some kind of arrogance of victors or numerical strength.

[Naughty Kinto Un]

Most of the Japanese industru guests I've spoken to don't understand the purist phenomenon. The directors I know say that anime is meant to be enjoyed in the viewer's native language, because while a person is trying to read the subtitles, they're ignoring the art and subtleties of the show!

Subtitles only distract from the show if you're not used to them. I say this as someone who not only always uses subtitles for foreign movies and TV shows, but closed-captioning for English-language media as well. Processing the text and the picture simultaneously can become virtually effortless with practice. One gets to doing it without thinking. It becomes automatic. No need to ignore anything.

[Smochi]

What does that tell you?

It tells me that you find the notion ridiculous and your friends prefer subs? I never give a definitive "this is better than that," because a particular show, dub or character is always someone's favorite. I was just pointing out an irony I saw in some sort of disconnect in American anime fan and Japanese anime director.

[Gaffer Tape]

I was just pointing out an irony I saw in some sort of disconnect in American anime fan and Japanese anime director.

Well, I don't really see that as an irony because that seems to preclude the assumption that the insistence in watching media in its original language is due to some kind of reverence bordering on worship (Japanophilia...?) and that the source material and its creators are not to be questioned or criticized in any way. But that's simply not true. Yeah, I know that Miyazaki of all people has said he prefers foreigners to watch his movies dubbed instead of subbed. Well, guess what? For all the respect I have for Miyazaki for his movies, I disagree with him. I think he's wrong. I can read subtitles and still pay attention to the artwork. Hell, when I watch Dragon Ball, I can read the subtitles AND follow along in the manga at the same time!

[samuraix123]

As a person who watches a-lot of non mainstream movies, I don't have a problem with reading subtitles while watching the actual movie. same goes with some anime's.
I honestly wish that the fighting and bickering in the fan base would just stop. who cares what someone else likes? I'm glad that I'm part of the group that loves and appreciates many different dubs of the show.
I cannot remember the name of the person but I do remember his comment on this site, He hated the English actors and the English fans so much that he didn't want the new Dragonball Z movie ''Battle of Gods'' movie to be released in the US! comments like that just burns me up.

[Smochi]

I was just pointing out an irony I saw in some sort of disconnect in American anime fan and Japanese anime director.

Well, I don't really see that as an irony because that seems to preclude the assumption that the insistence in watching media in its original language is due to some kind of reverence bordering on worship (Japanophilia...?) and that the source material and its creators are not to be questioned or criticized in any way.

:/ How the heck did you get that from what I said? Actually, I think that's the opposite. The "Japanophiles" you talk about usually believe that subs are superior no matter what, and that the Japanese directors would want you to watch their
dubs. I'm only saying what I said; the ones I know, the ones I have met briefly, and now apparently Miyazaki, prefers their works to be viewed in their native language. It IS ironic because it actually goes against the view you describe by showing that it's not all black and white, American vs Japanese. Additionally, since one of them is a friend, it's actually really offensive that you said the view is due to reverance bordering on worship. I simply repeated what he thinks. So, the fact that directors are less elitist than the fans is pretty ironic. I never said what to watch, or who's word is final.

[Gaffer Tape]

:/ How the heck did you get that from what I said?

From quotes like this, actually:

So, the fact that directors are less elitist than the fans is pretty ironic.

This assumption that preferring to watch something in its original language is any kind of "elitism" is something I just can't wrap my head around, but that's exactly what I was talking about in my last post. And I have absolutely no idea how what I said in my previous post could have possibly been offensive to your friend, and I think you actually misunderstood what I was saying, but I apologize nonetheless.

[Smochi]

:/ So you read the future? That's how you got it from my original statement?


By implying someone is a Japanophile worshipper by quoting a director is the first sense of elitism that I got.



EDIT: Damn phone. No, I'm saying the the director whom I've had the most conversations about this with IS a friend, so I don't like how by saying ONE sentiment from them, without even inserting my own opinion, is even remlotely similair to worship, or taking their opinion as law, or even being dissaproving of watching anything in it's original language.

I'm saying that I don't understand the generalization of subs vs dubs.

[dbboxkaifan]

It's certainly interesting when people say "when you're reading subtitles you're not watching the show", wait what? How?

I watched all 7 Dragon Boxes Z with English subs and never did I only read the subtitles (unless I'd have cropped the picture/vision out). Same goes for other films/series.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I watched all 7 Dragon Boxes Z with English subs and never did I only read the subtitles (unless I'd have cropped the picture/vision out). Same goes for other films/series.

In my entire lifetime, 95% of the movies I've seen since I turned 11 were with subs, and I'm watching them without any problem.
You get used to it easily, and when you do, it's never a problem, really.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: Smochi

Okay, that's what I thought. You've completely misinterpreted everything I've said. I was not making any kind of assumptions or statements about your friend (who I didn't even know existed when I first entered this conversation). I was making the argument that in order for you to find any "irony" in this situation, you would have to be making the assumption that the fans you were finding irony in were either elitist hypocrites or Japan-worshipping hypocrites. Otherwise, the lack of alignment in viewpoints between fans of subtitles and creators who are not fans of subtitles is completely coincidental and serves no other point beyond that.

[Smochi]

RE: Smochi

Okay, I was right. You completely misinterpreted what I'd said. I was not making any kind of assumptions or statements about your friend (who I didn't even know existed when I first entered this conversation). I was making the argument that in order for you to find any "irony" in this situation, you would have to be making the assumption that the fans you were finding irony in were either elitist hypocrites or Japan-worshipping hypocrites. Otherwise, the lack of alignment in viewpoints between fans of subtitles and creators who are not fans of subtitles is completely coincidental and serves no other point beyond that.

The existence of a friendship or not is irrelevant. If a person had said something or not, my relationship to them does not rewrite the truth.

Additionally, no. A person who, as we discussed in this topic, is annoyed by anyone who prefers the dub of a show, demonstrates the irony, since even the directors are no that hard-core towards their OWN work. That being said, in no way is the annoyed person a Japanohile or elitist. That is ONE facet of their anime fandom and mindset. I feel that the only way a person can be elitist is if they genuinely disrespect another person for their fandoms and views.

[rereboy]

What does that tell you?

It tells me that you find the notion ridiculous and your friends prefer subs?

It should tell you that only people not used to subtitles actually have a problem with them and have that theory that it distracts the audience.

[Smochi]

What does that tell you?

It tells me that you find the notion ridiculous and your friends prefer subs?

It should tell you that only people not used to subtitles actually have a problem with them and have that theory that it distracts the audience.

So because of your own preference, this magically becomes the truth? It's completely possible (and true) that others can think that without not being used to subs. This is my whole point. EVERYONE has a preference. Hence my own example. The directors words aren't law, but you'd think that the preference would be due to more than ignorance.

Am I saying dubs are better? Not at ALL.

Am I saying that opinions are subjective and everyone has their own ideas? Yep.

[Gaffer Tape]

The existence of a friendship or not is irrelevant. If a person had said something or not, my relationship to them does not rewrite the truth.

Sigh... I don't even know how to make this any clearer, but I will try one more time. I was not attributing any characteristics to anybody. I was not talking about anybody. I was not thinking about anybody. My statements were not directed towards anybody, be they friend, relative, or enemy to you, or anyone you don't know. But they certainly had nothing to do with the person/s who told you that Japanese creators don't care for subtitles. In other words, not only was there never any offense intended, there was never anything (offensive or otherwise) directed towards any person. Except for the fact that I happen to disagree with your assessment of irony.