Buu Saga Info

[dprez]

Amuro Ray, you are wrong. Deal with it. If there was some actual weight to your argument I would humor it but your not bringing anything to the table that hasn't already been debunked or discussed. It's plainly evident that Gotenks, Gohan, and Evil Buu are all stronger than Goku. The only piece of evidence you have in your favor is the anime which can easily be disregarded as filler and or Goku talking out his ass. You also have to take into consideration that Ssj3 IS a 4x multiplier off Ssj2. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and he multiplies his power by 8 when he goes Ssj3 strait off of his Ssj form. Ssj3 Gotenks IS stronger than Goku. So is Gohan and Evil Buu.

This all sounds right. Maybe they want Goku and Pure Boo to be the strongest and the anime line is all they have to cling to.I guess a very small percentage of people are interpreting something that most of us, just aren't...

[Hitiro]

??

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

I don't see what you're trying to indicate here. Yes, Vegeta uses chidzimu, which basically means shrunk in size. But Goku is saying "We did it!" - this is in connection to what he was on about earlier in side Evil Boo(Super Boo) about them needing to find some other way of beating him as he was still, at the time, more powerful than them. "We did it!" is clearly not in relation to the size part Vegeta said. That isn't what they were aiming for. At no point did Goku or Vegeta say "We need to find a way to shrink him somehow." what was basically implied and slightly stated by Goku was "He is still too powerful for us! We need to find a way to beat him, perhaps fusion. Weakening him further would also work." And don't come in with the argument that Goku took Pure Boo's size as a indication of his power. Up until a few seconds ago he was pointing out that Boo's power increased when he became Buff Boo. I find it hard to believe he just stopped sensing after he became Buff Boo and forgot everything about not judging a book by its cover. Again, Vegeta says he has shrunk, but that was just to mock him. Goku was the one states they weakened him by saying "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." So bolding the text which applies to Vegeta's comment only is not really a point. As you also bolded, which Herms has made a note of;

That >doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too<, but it's >not what Vegeta's talking about< here.

This note is purely only in relation to Vegeta talking about size. What Goku says though is evidence to Pure Boo being weaker because Goku implies that they achieved their goal of making Boo an opponent they can deal with.

[The Monkey King]

Just throwing out some numbers here, some are just speculation:

Fat Buu is roughly 2X stronger than Majin Vegeta and ssj2 Goku
Ssj2-ssj3 is a 4X multiplier
This makes ssj3 Goku 2X stronger than Fat Buu

Goku says ssj1 Gotenks should be enough to beat Fat Buu.
If you take this as Gotenks being 1.3-2X stronger than Fat Buu the 8X ssj1-ssj3 multiplier makes ssj3 Gotenks >>>>>>> ssj3 Goku.

So even if ssj1 Gotenks was only as strong as ssj2 Goku the 8X multiplier would still make ssj3 Gotenks stronger than ssj3 Goku.

[Amuro Ray]

I totally agree with you Zephyr, the story can go either way , I think it was left ambigous on purpose for the sake of more flexability in writing *read: Sloppy*

[Amuro Ray]

Just throwing out some numbers here, some are just speculation:

Fat Buu is roughly 2X stronger than Majin Vegeta and ssj2 Goku
Ssj2-ssj3 is a 4X multiplier
This makes ssj3 Goku 2X stronger than Fat Buu

Goku says ssj1 Gotenks should be enough to beat Fat Buu.
If you take this as Gotenks being 1.3-2X stronger than Fat Buu the 8X ssj1-ssj3 multiplier makes ssj3 Gotenks >>>>>>> ssj3 Goku.

So even if ssj1 Gotenks was only as strong as ssj2 Goku the 8X multiplier would still make ssj3 Gotenks stronger than ssj3 Goku.

Goku doesn't say that - he assumes (incorrectly) that Gotenks MIGHT (impliying a possibility of failure) be able to stop Buu. Just because Gotenks is stronger than Buu (which I don't believe) doesn't put him on Par with Goku.

SSJ3 Goku

Anyone can fit in here

FatBuu

Anyone can fit in here

Vegeta

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He does, actually. Goku tells Chi-Chi if they get the Fusion down, they'll be more than enough to handle Boo. And this is well after he saw the full-power of the boys. The reason why this doesn't automatically place Super Saiyan Gotenks above Super Saiyan 3 Goku is because Goku's also strong enough to defeat Boo. The story just tells us both Gotenks and Goku can beat Majin Boo.

[Draken]

Just throwing out some numbers here, some are just speculation:

Fat Buu is roughly 2X stronger than Majin Vegeta and ssj2 Goku
Ssj2-ssj3 is a 4X multiplier
This makes ssj3 Goku 2X stronger than Fat Buu

Goku says ssj1 Gotenks should be enough to beat Fat Buu.
If you take this as Gotenks being 1.3-2X stronger than Fat Buu the 8X ssj1-ssj3 multiplier makes ssj3 Gotenks >>>>>>> ssj3 Goku.

So even if ssj1 Gotenks was only as strong as ssj2 Goku the 8X multiplier would still make ssj3 Gotenks stronger than ssj3 Goku.

Goku doesn't say that - he assumes (incorrectly) that Gotenks MIGHT (impliying a possibility of failure) be able to stop Buu. Just because Gotenks is stronger than Buu (which I don't believe) doesn't put him on Par with Goku.

SSJ3 Goku

Anyone can fit in here

FatBuu

Anyone can fit in here

Vegeta

It was never contradicted, you can't keep using opinions to back up your own opinions and say it's proof. Debates don't work like that. It was never once contradicted that SSJ Gotenks (both pre and post) could put up a fight against Fat Buu. Then Fat Buu becomes Super Buu and gets much, much stronger (you can't deny this, seriously. Super Buu >>> Fat Buu). So for arguments sake let's say SSJ Gotenks Post is only equal to Fat Buu. And being generous we'll say Fat Buu was only a high tier SSJ2. You can't keep using opinions to back up opinions, if you have proof then sure, but as far as we know fusion multiplier for SSJ does NOT shrink compared to Goku. SSJ - SSJ3 = 8x multiplier. No matter how you twist it (unless you continue to use your own opinions to back up opinions) then SSJ3 Gotenks is far superior to SSJ3 Goku.

[Kaboom]

Amuro Ray does have a point that Gotenks never got a chance to prove Goku's prediction true, and nobody was certainly making claims of "oh wow, feel that power, he can definitely defeat Majin Boo!" when Gotenks first formed. So there's room for reasonable doubt.

The idea of "uncontradicted statement = fact" is a little too restrictive, if you ask me. Predictions and claims like this are only 100% fact if they're actually proven with feats, I'd say. Until then they're more or less glorified theories.

[Draken]

Amuro Ray does have a point that Gotenks never got a chance to prove Goku's prediction true, and nobody was certainly making claims of "oh wow, feel that power, he can definitely defeat Majin Boo!" when Gotenks first formed. So there's room for reasonable doubt.

The idea of "uncontradicted statement = fact" is a little too restrictive, if you ask me. Predictions and claims like this are only 100% fact if they're actually proven with feats, I'd say. Until then they're more or less glorified theories.

That's true, but he's taking the fact that it wasn't ever proven true the fact that it's actually a false BS statement, and that I can't stand lol. And that he uses his own opinions as proof that his own opinions are correct. I am glad that he finally realizes his viewpoint is not the ONLY viewpoint though. I'm probably done with this debate cause that's all I really wanted out of it, admitting others may be correct and not the "I'm this confident, this is my viewpoint, and I'm correct, everyone else has to be wrong." I'm glad you reached that Amuro, judging from your earlier post, and I salute you for it. Done with this finally haha.

[hleV]

Gotenks didn't need prove anything. Goku knows how Fusion works and he said Gotenks would defeat Boo. No reason to doubt that whatsoever, considering that besides SS3 Goku, Gotenks was the only hope left for the universe.

[Amuro Ray]

Again, he didn't say that - you're bending the truth.

[RandomGuy96]

Gotenks never got a chance to prove Goku's prediction true, and nobody was certainly making claims of "oh wow, feel that power, he can definitely defeat Majin Boo!" when Gotenks first formed. So there's room for reasonable doubt. The idea of "uncontradicted statement = fact" is a little too restrictive, if you ask me. Predictions and claims like this are only 100% fact if they're actually proven with feats, I'd say. Until then they're more or less glorified theories.

I think that's exactly what Piccolo and Goku said though...

Anyway, in order to have SS1 Gotenks weaker than Majin Vegeta, you'd have to completely derail Piccolo's and Goku's characters and have the forget how to do math (Goku) and sense ki (Piccolo). I mean, Piccolo sensed Majin Vegeta, he sensed Super Buu (his ki was a lie, but he still knew Super Buu > Fat Buu), and he sensed Fat Buu, and he still thought that SS1 Gotenks would handle both of the Buus.

On the other topic: I really can't believe this is even a debate. Goku explicitly states he's no match for Super Buu... yet to wank him, some people like to assume he was lying for no reason and instead tried to fuse with Vegeta for no reason, even though he could apparently easily defeat Buu, which he didn't do for no reason. They also assume he wanted to kill his kids for no reason and that he thought that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu for no reason, and that he temporarily lost his sixth sense of ki sensing for no reason.

[Saiga]

You don't have to derail Piccolo's ability to sense ki - he already did that himself with hyping up base Gotenks vs Evil Boo.

And by saying you have to derail Goku's ability to do math:

1) Who says he can do math? Especially with something like ki, where their are no numbers.

2) Who says the fusion dance is a consistent formula with all instances of the technique?

[RandomGuy96]

Buu's ki is said to be a lie- all Piccolo knows is kid Gohan SS2 < SS2 Majin Vegeta < Fat Buu < Super Buu. It is very possible that base Gotenks is just that much stronger than Vegeta. But personally, I just have Fat Buu as a really high tier SS2 fighter... weaker than both Good Buu and Pure Evil Buu, in fact, since they get the power that Fat Buu can only access when he's angry, i.e. Super Buu's power. I see them as Dai Kaioshin's power + Sealed South Kaioshin power and Kid Buu's power + minor power from whatever evil South Kaioshin had respectively. Here's where I have everyone:

SS Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Buff Buu > Buccolo > Super Buu > South Kaioshin > Pure Evil Buu > Kid Buu > SS3 Goku > Good Buu > SS Gotenks > Fat Buu > SS2 Goku = Majin Vegeta.

[dbzfan7]

I can see how some people put SSJ Gotenks pre rosat below Goku, but having SSJ3 Post Rosat below him I can't see. SSJ Gotenks is above Majin Vegeta. The only way Goku could be stronger is if his SSJ form was above SSJ Gotenks (which it clearly isn't). If that were true then Piccolo and Goku would be complete morons by putting there faith in the boys fusion.

[BejitaSama]

I think some people didn't pay attention to my previous post but...you should, because all the stuff with that multipliers are bullshit when you look at the manga. Toriyama didn't thought about it when he drew Dragon Ball, be serious please. He shows us a Super Buu not so far from Fat Buu. And Gotenks SSJ3 is not so far from Super Buu. Which implies that Goku SSJ3, Kid Buu, Super Buu and Gotenks SS3 are in the same range of power.

Is it so difficult to understand that Toriyama changed all the things when Goku said that he could beat Fat Buu when he fights against Kid Buu ? The SSJ3 Goku vs Fat Buu is NOT the real power of Goku.

I totally disagree with all the facts that you use to put Gotenks (at his normal state ) stronger than Goku SSJ3.
You know, all your argument is based on lines that says "Gotenks will be stronger, the man that can defeat Buu...", but all of this is BEFORE we know that Goku was liying.
During his fight against Kid Buu, we learn that he could win against Fat Buu, which is a totally different speech and change all what was said earlier. You try to justify everything, but there is no "logic" in the Buu Saga.
Moreover, all your argument make Super Buu almost ten times stronger than Fat Buu, which is, I think, totally impossible.

The only things that we know is :

Kid Buu >(>) Fat Buu
Super Buu >= Fat Buu
Gohan >> Super Buu
Gotenks SSJ3 >= Super Buu
Gotenks SSJ1 << Super Buu
Goku SSJ3 >= Kid Buu
Goku SSJ3 >> Fat Buu

So we have :
Gohan >> Super Buu <= Gotenks SSJ3 << Gotenks SSJ1
And
Goku SSJ3 >= Kid Buu >> Fat Buu

All other statement is just subjective. And personnaly, I would say that :

Gohan > Goku SSJ3 >= Kid Buu > Gotenks SSJ3 >= Super Buu >= Fat Buu > Gotenks SSJ1

In order to precise my thoughts, I will present it with power levels with annotations to explain some numbers. And I think that the most logical to compare Gotenks, Goku and Gohan, is to focus on Buu’s transformations and strengths, and not on characters statements which says that a character should / may / shall be able to win against another, […].

Majin Buu [Full Power]: 25,000 K
[At his full power, when he gets very very angry]

Majin Bejita : 10,000 K
[When Majin Buu gets angry and show his true power (around 20,000 K], Bejita is no match for him]

Gokû SSJ3 [first appearance] : 20,000 K
[He makes a toe-to-toe battle with the Majin]

Gotenks : 6,000 K
Gotenks SSJ : 12,000 K
[Gotenks SSJ1 Post ROSAT is at 17,000 K below, so I put him weaker here]

Pure Evil Buu : 15,000 K
Good Buu : 10,000 K
[It says both in the manga and in the anime that Pure Evil Buu took most of the power of Majin Buu].

Super Evil Buu : 30,000 K
[Not an enormous gap between him and Majin Buu Full Power because of Piccolo’s statements : “his body has changed, more suitable to fight” “he’s pure evil”, “all in him is greater”]

Gotenks [Post-ROSAT] : 8,500 K
Gotenks SSJ1 [Post-ROSAT] : 17,000 K
Gotenks SSJ3 : 34,000 K
[Gotenks SSJ3 is a little be superior to Super Evil Buu, but the monster was planning since a long time to absorb him in order to beat Gohan, so…The gap is, I think, not so big.
To deduce the strength of Gotenks SSJ1 and base, if we apply the super saiyajin multipliers, we have to divided 34,000 by 4 to have Gotenks SSJ2, which would put him at 8,500, which is too low I think…So there’s a problem between multipliers gave fifteen years later and Gotenks progression in the manga…or, Gotenks SSJ1 is weak. It’s sure that when Toriyama wrote the manga, he didn’t thought about this kind of multipliers so…I try my explanation, which is that Fusion has specific multipliers : SSJ1 = Base x2 ; SSJ2 = Base x 3 ; SSJ3 = Base x 4 or SSJ1 x 2 ]

Ultimate Gohan : 45,000 K

Super Evil Buu [Gotenks absorbed] : 64,000 K
Super Evil Buu [Gohan absorbed] : 70,000 K
Super Bejito : 100,000 K

Buff Buu : 40,000 K
[Buff Buu is stated to be more powerful than Super Evil Buu]
Kid Buu : 35,000 K
[He’s the original Buu, stronger than Fat Buu because of the absence of Kaioshin(s).

Gokû SSJ3 [Full Power (never saw)] : 40,000 K
[Gokû at his best is sure to destroy Kid Buu which is at 35,000 K. But the SSJ3 is an exhausted transformation, and this maximum of 40,000 K is never saw. But against Kid Buu, he put a descent fight so we can assume that this Goku is at 35,000 K ]

[Darkprince410]

There's a few things with your list I don't find accurate.

1) You're ignoring established multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin forms. If Gotenks was 6,000 (for the sake of your list), then Ssj Gotenks would be 300,000, and following his training he'd be over 425,000. Likewise, if Vegeta were only 10,000, then Ssj3 Goku would only be 40,000. It's very inaccurate in that regard since it doesn't show the difference in power of the Super Saiya-jin forms properly. Likewise, since there's nothing saying otherwise, we can't assume that the multipliers for fused Super Saiya-jin are any different than those for regular ones.

2) Nothing establishes that we already saw Fat Buu's full power when he got angry before. Yes, he tapped into more of his power, but nothing establishes that it's his full power. Additionally, since Goku doesn't know the extent of Fat Buu's power, while his statement is accurate in comparison to the level of power Buu used against him, it's very possible that, if Fat Buu had become angry enough, he could have surpassed Goku in strength.

3) Goku's statement is the only one that suggests that Fat Buu is weaker than Pure Buu, but as I've pointed out, there's room for doubt with that, since Goku's knowledge of Fat Buu is limited to his own fight with him, and he has no idea of Buu's full power.

4) Your list also excludes the fact that Goku adamantly admits he couldn't beat Evil Buu without fusing with Vegeta. If Goku were as powerful as you have listed, then he could and would have destroyed Evil Buu easily.

[Hitiro]

Again, he didn't say that - you're bending the truth.

But Goku does say Goten and Trunks should be able to beat Fat Boo on two seperate ocassions.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

As you can see, on both occasions Goku says that the fusion will definitely be able to beat Fat Boo. Though we aren't saying SSJ Gotenks is as strong as SSJ3 Goku, but its clear that SSJ Gotenks would have to be above SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta for him to actually stand a chance against Fat Boo. That being said, SSJ3 Gotenks >> SSJ3 Goku if SSJ Gotenks >= SSJ2 Goku.

[Zephyr]

Even still though, he's estimating, and nothing more. Goku's never seen the fusion of those two, so he can't say that he knows from first hand experience that the fusion will match Buu in power. Thus, he's simply predicting that since it made two shrimps ridiculously more powerful, that it would make two already ridiculously powerful kids even more ridiculously powerful. Buu is also ridiculously powerful. Who knows, maybe the fusion between these two ridiculously powerful brats might be just ridiculously powerful enough to beat Buu's ridiculous power.

And yes, he sounds certain when talking to Chichi, but this also Chichi we're talking about. You want to sound as certain as possible just to shut her up.

[BejitaSama]

)1) You're ignoring established multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin forms. If Gotenks was 6,000 (for the sake of your list), then Ssj Gotenks would be 300,000, and following his training he'd be over 425,000. Likewise, if Vegeta were only 10,000, then Ssj3 Goku would only be 40,000. It's very inaccurate in that regard since it doesn't show the difference in power of the Super Saiya-jin forms properly. Likewise, since there's nothing saying otherwise, we can't assume that the multipliers for fused Super Saiya-jin are any different than those for regular ones.

Man, I'm sorry but it's just...you didn't read the comment I made for Gotenks ? It's not very respectful...Stop with the multipliers and just try to be logic with the manga.
Toriyama not stated Super Buu so much more powerful than Fat Buu, and Toriyama stated by the mouth of Goku at the end of the manga that he is superior to Fat Buu.
So, Goku can't be so weak. It's just impossible. You konw, Dragon Ball is not perfectly logic, Toriyama said he drew step by step, without thinking about multipliers for SSJ. You just have to assume that when he created Kid Buu, he was obliged to make Goku more powerful... So, he changed what he said earlier (that Goku didnt know if he could win against Fat Buu) into "I could win".

2) Nothing establishes that we already saw Fat Buu's full power when he got angry before. Yes, he tapped into more of his power, but nothing establishes that it's his full power. Additionally, since Goku doesn't know the extent of Fat Buu's power, while his statement is accurate in comparison to the level of power Buu used against him, it's very possible that, if Fat Buu had become angry enough, he could have surpassed Goku in strength.

Again, you're not logic. If Toriyama, in the 42th volume, states that Goku is superior to Fat Buu, I think it's pretty clear. There is no doubt about Fat Buu's power. As I said, in the last volume of the serie, if Toriyama assume that Goku could win, it's that he could, whatever the degree of anger of Buu or other things

4)

4) Your list also excludes the fact that Goku adamantly admits he couldn't beat Evil Buu without fusing with Vegeta. If Goku were as powerful as you have listed, then he could and would have destroyed Evil Buu easily.

You're right, this states of Goku is important too. How I explained above, Goku never reached is Full Power of 40,000. He can develop the same power as Kid Buu. And I think Kid Buu is superior to Super Buu, because he's the only one really stated to be more powerful than Fat Buu. So, I explain that by two things : maybe Toriyama didn't think at this moment to make Goku more powerful (so in his head, his level was around Fat Buu), or maybe it's just that Goku absolutly wanted to fuse with Bejita, and not engage himself in a battle that could be difficult. I know that after, he wants to fight against Kidd Buu, but it's clearly show that at this moment, his Saiyan pride take the advantage. He dosen't want to fuse anymore, the earth is destroyed, Buu is at his original stade wihtout absorptions, and he knows Bejita won't fuse.

As you can see, on both occasions Goku says that the fusion will definitely be able to beat Fat Boo. Though we aren't saying SSJ Gotenks is as strong as SSJ3 Goku, but its clear that SSJ Gotenks would have to be above SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta for him to actually stand a chance against Fat Boo. That being said, SSJ3 Gotenks >> SSJ3 Goku if SSJ Gotenks >= SSJ2 Goku.

Goku hadn't show his true power, and never saw Gotenks, he made a bet. You can't base your argument on stuff like this, it's like saying that Majin Bejita is stronger than Fat Buu because he think he could handle him. The story show us that he was wrong, and the same thing happenned with Gotenks, who is shown to be unable to fight against Super Buu in SSJ. Please, look at the fact.