How would you compare Grade 3 SSJ to SSJ2?

[Kaboom]

Both the 'Grade' states and Super Saiyan 2 are consistently labeled and described as being "beyond Super Saiyan" and "Super-Super Saiyan" and things like that. They strike me as different methods or paths to the same underlying level of power, and I think it'd make sense for Grade 3 to share the same relative power boost as Super Saiyan 2.

[dbzfan7]

Both the 'Grade' states and Super Saiyan 2 are consistently labeled and described as being "beyond Super Saiyan" and "Super-Super Saiyan" and things like that. They strike me as different methods or paths to the same underlying level of power, and I think it'd make sense for Grade 3 to share the same relative power boost as Super Saiyan 2.

I like to think grade 2 and 3 are imperfect SSJ2's that were achieved through means that wouldn't satisfy the requirement for SSJ2.

[Kamiccolo9]

Both the 'Grade' states and Super Saiyan 2 are consistently labeled and described as being "beyond Super Saiyan" and "Super-Super Saiyan" and things like that. They strike me as different methods or paths to the same underlying level of power, and I think it'd make sense for Grade 3 to share the same relative power boost as Super Saiyan 2.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The Grades are stated as surpassing the limits of Super Saiyan, true, but this is by Vegeta and Trunks, who at this point have no idea what they are talking about. We see as soon as Goku and Gohan emerge from the ROSAT that they've managed to far surpass the grades, using only the regular Super Saiyan state. So the grades haven't managed to surpass the limits of Super Saiyan at all. As I see it, the Grades are a failed attempt to reach SSJ2 by forcing yourself to power up. They would fall under the SSJ1, as, IMO, they are just pumped up SSJ1's.

[Bussani]

The Grades are stated as surpassing the limits of Super Saiyan, true, but this is by Vegeta and Trunks, who at this point have no idea what they are talking about. We see as soon as Goku and Gohan emerge from the ROSAT that they've managed to far surpass the grades, using only the regular Super Saiyan state. So the grades haven't managed to surpass the limits of Super Saiyan at all. As I see it, the Grades are a failed attempt to reach SSJ2 by forcing yourself to power up. They would fall under the SSJ1, as, IMO, they are just pumped up SSJ1's.

That assessment doesn't exactly seem wrong to me, but it does seem right either, if that makes any sense. It really depends on how you want to draw up lines between what is and isn't a transformation.

Besides, if a regular Super Saiyan got strong enough to surpass a Super Saiyan 2, would you then say that Super Saiyan 2 didn't surpass Super Saiyan? Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed Trunks as a Super Saiyan Grade III, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Grade III isn't beyond Super Saiyan. Unless being a really strong Super Saiyan means you can never use Grade III again, I guess, but that's another conversation entirely.

Nothing indicates that it's not. I seem to be in the minority here, but I've seen nothing to indicate that Grade III is equal to SSJ2.

I'm not usually one to worry about the numbers, but can we really fit it below Super Saiyan 2's multiplier when it allowed Trunks to surpass not only Vegeta, but Perfect Cell as well? The gaps between them seem like they should be pretty big: Trunks was already supposed to be slightly weaker than Vegeta, and Super Vegeta seemed to be a lot weaker than Perfect Cell, but Grade III Trunks greatly surpasses Perfect Cell.

[Saiga]

@Mjb1985 I think the 2x multiplier of SS2 was used by fans even before the guidebooks revealed it. I might be wrong though.

I'm not usually one to worry about the numbers, but can we really fit it below Super Saiyan 2's multiplier when it allowed Trunks to surpass not only Vegeta, but Perfect Cell as well? The gaps between them seem like they should be pretty big: Trunks was already supposed to be slightly weaker than Vegeta, and Super Vegeta seemed to be a lot weaker than Perfect Cell, but Grade III Trunks greatly surpasses Perfect Cell.

I think it's certainly possible, but it's kind of tight. As an example, my numbers:

Vegeta Grade II: 885,000,000
Trunks Grade II: 862,500,000
Trunks Grade III: 1,150,000,000
Perfect: 1,050,000,000

Maybe Cell is too high compared to Trunks, but the gap was never really shown between them so I think it can work like that. And I do believe Cell is high enough to defeat Vegeta the way he does since even small gaps can lead to hilariously uneven battles. Also, SS2 Gohan effortlessly overpowers Cell when he makes his Grade III-esque transformation, so assuming Cell gets the same boost a Super Saiyan would (I don't see why he'd be different), I don't think it should be more than x2.

What I'm having trouble with is the idea of comparing Grade III Goku to Semi-Perfect Cell. I think that Gohan would know how strong Semi-Perfect Cell is, so I think that's an important comparison. Since I have Goku at 4,800,000 going into the RoSaT and Cell at 550,000,000 when he first transforms, it's quite difficult.

[RandomGuy96]

I would say those gaps are too small with the Freeza fight taken into account. Mostly because Vegeta couldn't do ANYTHING to Cell. 75 vs 100 is what I consider the minimum for pwnage.

[Saiga]

But 75 v 100 isn't the minimum in the series itself. Also you can say that because the Graded forms use up so much energy by the time Vegeta fought Cell he was like 700 million or lower.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, but that's just what I guessed it to be going by official levels. Vegeta vs Cui was pwnage. Freeza vs Goku was actually a fight. See also Buutenks vs Gohan.

[Saiga]

I don't think Goku vs 100% Freeza was a fight at all. The only hit I remember Freeza getting in was ramming Goku from the side with his bubble thingy.

[RandomGuy96]

Nah, he definitely landed a few hits, not just the Nova Strike. It was a fight for sure. Not like Cell vs Vegeta.

[Saiga]

Re-read it. It was completely one-sided, and I wouldn't call that a fight. Goku was toying with Freeza the entire time.

[Hitiro]

I think Grade 3 vastly exceeds SSJ2 in strength. We have to remember that Trunks and Vegeta could only match Semi-Perfect Cell's power with grade 2. Trunks then exceeded Perfect Cell's power with Grade 3. Both Vegeta and Trunks couldn't even damage Suppressed Cell with physical attacks. The difference is Gohan's regular SSJ form was strong enough to fight on par with Suppressed Cell even though he chose not to fight him. And then he only exceeded Perfect Cell's power with the SSJ2 transformation. I would say the boost Grade 3 gave is a hefty one but all that power is useless without speed.

[Saiga]

I think Grade 3 vastly exceeds SSJ2 in strength. We have to remember that Trunks and Vegeta could only match Semi-Perfect Cell's power with grade 2. Trunks then exceeded Perfect Cell's power with Grade 3. Both Vegeta and Trunks couldn't even damage Suppressed Cell with physical attacks. The difference is Gohan's regular SSJ form was strong enough to fight on par with Suppressed Cell even though he chose not to fight him. And then he only exceeded Perfect Cell's power with the SSJ2 transformation. I would say the boost Grade 3 gave is a hefty one but all that power is useless without speed.

But then, shouldn't the bulked up Cell be stronger than Gohan or at least on par with him?

[Mjb1985]

I don't think Cell going buff is the same as Vegeta , Trunks , Goku and Roshi. They seem to have manipulated it in a different fashion. Maybe not, but that's how I view it as of now.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Grades are stated as surpassing the limits of Super Saiyan, true, but this is by Vegeta and Trunks, who at this point have no idea what they are talking about. We see as soon as Goku and Gohan emerge from the ROSAT that they've managed to far surpass the grades, using only the regular Super Saiyan state. So the grades haven't managed to surpass the limits of Super Saiyan at all. As I see it, the Grades are a failed attempt to reach SSJ2 by forcing yourself to power up. They would fall under the SSJ1, as, IMO, they are just pumped up SSJ1's.

That assessment doesn't exactly seem wrong to me, but it does seem right either, if that makes any sense. It really depends on how you want to draw up lines between what is and isn't a transformation.

I've always considered Grades 2 and 3 to be the same concept as Buff Roshi, 100% Freeza, and Buff Cell. None of which I would consider transformations, only pumping up their body with ki.

Besides, if a regular Super Saiyan got strong enough to surpass a Super Saiyan 2, would you then say that Super Saiyan 2 didn't surpass Super Saiyan? Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed Trunks as a Super Saiyan Grade III, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Grade III isn't beyond Super Saiyan. Unless being a really strong Super Saiyan means you can never use Grade III again, I guess, but that's another conversation entirely.

As I see it, they've pretty much hit their limits with Super Saiyan by the end of the Cell Arc. Aside from fusions, they never do anything significant with the form again, and need additional powerups, like SSJ2, SSJ3, and fusion to win. As I see it, the ROSAT was the last really big boost of power by training that anyone got in the series.

Nothing indicates that it's not. I seem to be in the minority here, but I've seen nothing to indicate that Grade III is equal to SSJ2.

I'm not usually one to worry about the numbers, but can we really fit it below Super Saiyan 2's multiplier when it allowed Trunks to surpass not only Vegeta, but Perfect Cell as well? The gaps between them seem like they should be pretty big: Trunks was already supposed to be slightly weaker than Vegeta, and Super Vegeta seemed to be a lot weaker than Perfect Cell, but Grade III Trunks greatly surpasses Perfect Cell.[/quote]
Power level gaps aren't always consistent. Goku and Freeza had a decent gap, yet Freeza was able to somewhat compete with Goku, while Vegeta and Dodoria were very close, yet that was an easy win for Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

But then, shouldn't the bulked up Cell be stronger than Gohan or at least on par with him?

He probably is, but what good is all that strength with Gohan moving so fast its making Cell look like a snail?

[Kamiccolo9]

But then, shouldn't the bulked up Cell be stronger than Gohan or at least on par with him?

He probably is, but what good is all that strength with Gohan moving so fast its making Cell look like a snail?

He still got taken out with one hit. You'd think that if he was on par with Gohan, or stronger, then he'd be able to last longer than that. Trunks took some hits from Perfect Cell just fine.

[Draken]

But then, shouldn't the bulked up Cell be stronger than Gohan or at least on par with him?

He probably is, but what good is all that strength with Gohan moving so fast its making Cell look like a snail?

He still got taken out with one hit. You'd think that if he was on par with Gohan, or stronger, then he'd be able to last longer than that. Trunks took some hits from Perfect Cell just fine.

I think the form just gave him brute strength, but his endurance, speed, and etc stayed the same or got worse.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think the form just gave him brute strength, but his endurance, speed, and etc stayed the same or got worse.

It's said to be the same powerup that Trunks did against Cell, and that took Trunks from being weaker than Vegeta, to being able to trade blows with Perfect Cell. So it must have increased his durability some.

[Mjb1985]

He was even able to dodge Cell's punches.