Is Kai on Nicktoons becoming what DBZ was on Toonami?

[Kakarot88]

Asses in seats yes but to keep asses in said seats the music needed to be good along with the acting etc. Kai puts the asses in the seats because it says DragonBall Z in front of it. Kai does not keep as many asses in said seats because adults and children would rather watch something that did not sound so lame. People preferred mondo cool and filler over Kai because of more than a time slot. I love dragon ball z, I was dying to love kai but cannot because it sounds terrible. No amount of acting and refurbishing can mask how lame it sounds in comparison. George Michael would similarly be unable to keep asses in seats for any of those movies.

[VegettoEX]

People preferred mondo cool and filler over Kai because of more than a time slot.

There is absolutely zero way for you to prove this without doing countless case studies with various audience groups.

That being said, the (admittedly-nonempirical) evidence weighs far more heavily in the external factors like timeslots than it does to support your "we like awful dialog and completely green voice actors" theory . The same trends followed for plenty of other shows of the same genre, shots that had sequel/spin-off versions years later, etc.

[ABED]

Asses in seats yes but to keep asses in said seats the music needed to be good along with the acting etc. Kai puts the asses in the seats because it says DragonBall Z in front of it. Kai does not keep as many asses in said seats because adults and children would rather watch something that did not sound so lame. People preferred mondo cool and filler over Kai because of more than a time slot. I love dragon ball z, I was dying to love kai but cannot because it sounds terrible. No amount of acting and refurbishing can mask how lame it sounds in comparison. George Michael would similarly be unable to keep asses in seats for any of those movies.

The Kai music isn't lame. Plenty of people enjoy it, and they get a fun story and cool action. I don't know anyone that actually liked mondo cool. Yeah, that time slot is INCREDIBLY important. What song sounded like Faith? Don't parrot what they said just to put a product you don't like down. Even if it's true, one questionable song doesn't make or break an entire score. There are plenty of times I've heard a bad piece of music in a show I like. It might have spoiled the mood a little, but that doesn't reflect the ENTIRE show.

Kikuchi's score is to DBZ what Shore's music was to Lord of the Rings. It fit beautifully. You didn't like it, fine. Many people do, including many who enjoy Faulconer's score.

If you look at ratings trends in the last 10-15 years, ratings have gone down for pretty much every channel substantially. It's hard to predict how well Kai would've done, since a lot of relevant factors have changed. If people simply watch Kai because it has DBZ in front of it, that assumes a level of familiarity, which makes Kai a different version of something they've already seen.

[Kakarot88]

People preferred mondo cool and filler over Kai because of more than a time slot.

There is absolutely zero way for you to prove this without doing countless case studies with various audience groups.

That being said, the (admittedly-nonempirical) evidence weighs far more heavily in the external factors like timeslots than it does to support your "we like awful dialog and completely green voice actors" theory . The same trends followed for plenty of other shows of the same genre, shots that had sequel/spin-off versions years later, etc.

Although you are right in that I would need case studies to bolster the obvious i lack the time and will power to do so. That being said you are still, like ABED, pigeonholing my point to suit your opinion that Z dub was not good. My point is the green voice actors and non accurate dialogue were still good and the music made it even better. Use better actors cut out filler and use proper dialogue BUT with different music and now we have a conundrum...what went wrong? Rather than having old and new fans loving kai we have a unique niche of people the series appeals to. Your response is the almighty time slot...time plays a role for sure BUT with the ability to DVR not really...if kids and adults wanted to watch Kai like they did Z then the DVR makes life easier. But no ppl aren't setting the DVR like they did the VCR back in the day to watch it because it just sounds lame.

Meeeeh you can't prove that Kakarot88! No but it seems to me that shit would sell at least as well as the cropped orange bricks. Not to mention that Z stayed in syndication on Cartoon Network for friggen forever how long did kai last after the end of the cell arc? A year max?

[ABED]

My point is the green voice actors and non accurate dialogue were still good and the music made it even better

I disagree about the green actors, most of them were god awful and the dialog was arguably worse. The music fit that dub, but not DBZ. DBZ was already popular well before even season 3.

Your response is the almighty time slot

That's just one big reason, there were others listed.

Not to mention that Z stayed in syndication on Cartoon Network for friggen forever how long did kai last after the end of the cell arc? A year max?

Different channels, different time periods, different options, more competition, and it's the same show, just shorter.

Rather than having old and new fans loving kai we have a unique niche of people the series appeals to.

That niche was created the second FUNi made alterations to DBZ's dub. By the way, Kai wasn't that big in Japan either. You can't capture the popularity of the first go around, it's just not possible.

Music is only one factor, and not the most important one. I know I'm not alone in this that I watched DBZ regardless of quality because the animation and fights, plus it was our only way to watch it.

So the music is the difference maker? That's the all encompassing reason why DBZ was so popular in the states? Not the animation? I have a hard time believing people would prefer "good" music, along with bad acting, awful VA choices and terrible scripts than questionable music with good acting, solid scripts and voices that fit.

[Kakarot88]

Abed, you said the music did not fit DBZ (referring to the US broadcast version or Faulconer score), I am therefore assuming that means that Kai does fit with the pacing of the english cast in you opinion.

That is why we disagree. Despite losing filler Kai feels slow, like excruciatingly slow. I literally watch the Dragon Ball anime on repeat when I eat breakfast each morning so that is saying something. It's why I enjoy the Japanese version so much AND still enjoy funimations (I can feel VegetoEX projectile vommiting). The music works with the language but that symphony stuff feels so slow when played along an English cast. You obviously disagree and truly enjoy Kai, more power to you. I don't despite my best efforts lol. I actually have forced myself to watch every episode and never could get over Gohan or No. 18 or the pacing. I've seen some episodes twice but as soon as I watch the funi Z dub I find it better and the Japanese dub better than that depending on what I'm in the mood for. Maybe it's nostalgia but I think it's the music because I have also watched the dub with the Japanese score and it sounds like Kai...terrible. So I respectfully disagree with you and cannot fathom why you enjoy Kai's musical pacing. All I know is that aside from this forum I have never seen people post positive things about Kai's music.

[Kakarot88]

Abed, you said the music did not fit DBZ (referring to the US broadcast version or Faulconer score), I am therefore assuming that means that Kai does fit with the pacing of the english cast in you opinion.

That is why we disagree. Despite losing filler Kai feels slow, like excruciatingly slow. I literally watch the Dragon Ball anime on repeat when I eat breakfast each morning so that is saying something. It's why I enjoy the Japanese version so much AND still enjoy funimations (I can feel VegetoEX projectile vommiting). The music works with the language but that symphony stuff feels so slow when played along an English cast. You obviously disagree and truly enjoy Kai, more power to you. I don't despite my best efforts lol. I actually have forced myself to watch every episode and never could get over Gohan or No. 18 or the pacing. I've seen some episodes twice but as soon as I watch the funi Z dub I find it better and the Japanese dub better than that depending on what I'm in the mood for. Maybe it's nostalgia but I think it's the music because I have also watched the dub with the Japanese score and it sounds like Kai...terrible. So I respectfully disagree with you and cannot fathom why you enjoy Kai's musical pacing. All I know is that aside from this forum I have never seen people post positive things about Kai's music.

[VegettoEX]

In 1999, we all assumed that there was not a single human being capable of enjoying the Faulconer Productions score in and of itself, let alone combined with Dragon Ball Z. Little did we know that there WAS some type of fanbase for it, and they were just too young to come voice those opinions online at the time.

You are us, only in 2013, completely blinded, and with a younger generation of fans who "have no problem at all" up through "love" whatever score it is they're hearing in Kai.

Wait around another ten to fifteen years.

[Kamiccolo9]

In 1999, we all assumed that there was not a single human being capable of enjoying the Faulconer Productions score in and of itself, let alone combined with Dragon Ball Z. Little did we know that there WAS some type of fanbase for it, and they were just too young to come voice those opinions online at the time.

You are us, only in 2013, completely blinded, and with a younger generation of fans who "have no problem at all" up through "love" whatever score it is they're hearing in Kai.

Wait around another ten to fifteen years.

It's the circle of life.

Incidentally, and I must be the only one who feels this way, I like both sets of music. English dub with Japanese music, English with English music, Japanese with Japanese music...I've managed to enjoy all of them. Guess I'm just carefree and easy to please

[ABED]

There's no way to say what would happen if things were different. THere are a lot of what if questions. What if DBZ had been adapted better? What if the original music had been kept? I'm sure there are some that would've watched regardless, some who wouldn't have watched, but there are probably some that were so offput by the American score that they might have watched otherwise. There's no way to know these questions for sure.

Despite losing filler Kai feels slow, like excruciatingly slow.

Slow? It goes by in a breeze to me. Hell, even the dialog is faster paced.

I have also watched the Z dub with Kikuchi's score, and I'm ambivalent about it. In some ways it covers up some of the bad stuff but other times I feel like it's out of place in a dub that is just plain awful. The Faulconer score fit that version of the show in a weird way.

[AgitoZ]

Well, I WAS referring to the Toonami run since it is most obviously the time period in which DBZ was having the biggest impact, but I don't see how the timeslot is relevant to the question being asked here - "is Kai on Nicktoons achieving the same prolific exposure and success that DBZ initially skyrocketed to".

The answer is no, it's not.

Well, that's certainly one way to interpret the question. DBZ on Toonami was just the show being more easily accessible to kids thanks to airing at an afternoon block. Was Nicktoons doing that when Kai aired? Will it continue to do that when the Boo arc airs? Certainly.

While I don't doubt that DBZ fan sites would still be on the net, do you really think that Kai is popular enough to draw a parallel to a time when multiple MASSIVE DBZ fan sites were operating at the same time? Karin Tower, Planet Namek, The Ultimate DBZ Info Page, Temple O' Trunks, and others including the parent sites of this very page.

No, because now you're arguing a separate subject. Would Kai, a show that's just Z touched up, achieve the success Z once did? Hell no. But that has nothing to do with either the channel or programming block it was on (you know what this thread was originally discussing).

[Cursed Lemon]

Well, that's certainly one way to interpret the question. DBZ on Toonami was just the show being more easily accessible to kids thanks to airing at an afternoon block. Was Nicktoons doing that when Kai aired? Will it continue to do that when the Boo arc airs? Certainly.

No, because now you're arguing a separate subject. Would Kai, a show that's just Z touched up, achieve the success Z once did? Hell no. But that has nothing to do with either the channel or programming block it was on (you know what this thread was originally discussing).

How else could you possibly interpret the OP's meaning other than "popularity"?

[penguintruth]

Again, I say it's apples and oranges. Media is different now than it was back when DBZ was on Toonami. Kai wasn't ever going to be like DBZ was on Toonami.

Even if Kai was on Toonami, in an afternoon block, on the weekdays, it still wouldn't be the same. DVR, streaming, OnDemand services, it's changed everything. You don't just have people watching something when it first airs anymore. And Nicktoons especially repeats airings throughout the day.

You really can't compare it. That's what got Toei in trouble with Kai to begin with, because they expected everything to unfold the way it had with DBZ's original run.

I think it did rather well for itself, but there were unrealistic expectations.

[Hellspawn28]

DBZ also came out during good timing. It came out during the 90's when these type of shows are popular since it had characters that look bulky and cool looking.

Again, I say it's apples and oranges. Media is different now than it was back when DBZ was on Toonami. Kai wasn't ever going to be like DBZ was on Toonami.

Even if Kai was on Toonami, in an afternoon block, on the weekdays, it still wouldn't be the same. DVR, streaming, OnDemand services, it's changed everything. You don't just have people watching something when it first airs anymore. And Nicktoons especially repeats airings throughout the day.

I agree. DBZ will never be as popular as it was from 1998 - 2003, those days are long over. I do remember when Kai was coming out in America and people were so hype that they were thinking that it will be like the good old days again. Here we are after a few years after Kai aired on Nick Toons and things are the same now after DBZ ended in 2003.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

I don't think so. DBZ on Nicktoons does not seem as popular as DBZ was from 1998 - 2003 on Toonami.

Pretty much everyone from 7-16 were in one spot at 4:30 CST at least where I live.

DBZ Kai while what we should have gotten in the first place is better it does not hold a candle in terms of popularity.

Speaking of the faulconer score I hated it, I did enjoy some of the SSJ themes but the score as a whole was terrible... as a business decision though the kikuchi score would not have kept children entertained in the US but if DBZ was adapted today it would not air with the children's demographic to begin with.

I enjoyed watching DBZ during it's original run from what I saw (1993-1996) and the rest on tapes, I also oddly enough enjoyed the US run even with it's faults. It's DBZ folks, it's entertaining^^

[ABED]

as a business decision though the kikuchi score would not have kept children entertained in the US

how do you know this?

[Daimo-Rukiri]

as a business decision though the kikuchi score would not have kept children entertained in the US

how do you know this?

Good question, I don't. With most action shows airing on TV in the US at that time most scores were fast paced and up beat.

[kei17]

Arguing that non stopping, up beat, and Micky Mousing dub scores are needed to keep American children entertained is almost the same as saying that they're dumb.

[Ringworm128]

Again, I say it's apples and oranges. Media is different now than it was back when DBZ was on Toonami. Kai wasn't ever going to be like DBZ was on Toonami.

Even if Kai was on Toonami, in an afternoon block, on the weekdays, it still wouldn't be the same. DVR, streaming, OnDemand services, it's changed everything. You don't just have people watching something when it first airs anymore. And Nicktoons especially repeats airings throughout the day.

You really can't compare it. That's what got Toei in trouble with Kai to begin with, because they expected everything to unfold the way it had with DBZ's original run.

I think it did rather well for itself, but there were unrealistic expectations.

People constantly say "TV and radio is dead the internet is king!" But I'm not so sure about that. I don't know anyone who doesn't still watch TV and all the chart topping songs are ones that got airtime on TV and radio. You don't see "insert internet musician here" topping the billboard charts with 10 million views on YT within a month.

[Mewzard]

Arguing that non stopping, up beat, and Micky Mousing dub scores are needed to keep American children entertained is almost the same as saying that they're dumb.

It's the ADHD man, if kids aren't hooked right away, they give up and do something else, lol.

Of course, I'm joking about them all being like that. But the mental image of American Children being glorified magpies is amusing. "Well, this is ni-OOH, SHINY! *leaps away*"

Even if it got near as popular as it once was...how much of an impact would it have? If you wanted to see something major happen, it would have had to have gotten more popular than ever before to have a real major change.