Buu's Absorptions and South Kaioshin

[Saiga]

I always thought that Gotenks was stronger, but the difference isn't enough for Boo to recognize. 72 vs 70 billion.

It's not so much that I'm doing it because I dislike him being strong (although I do dislike it), but I am certain that earlier events imply that he's weaker, and I wish to be consistent rather than just saying he's been retconned stronger. The evidence just isn't clear enough to say he's stronger, and I don't want to be inconsistent based on something I can't really explain well anyway. If I come to the conclusion that the Buff Boo we see is accurate to Pure Boo + South Kaioshin, then I will accept South Kaioshin being stronger, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I just have to rethink the whole Boo relationship until I figure out what I believe.

[RandomGuy96]

I always thought that Gotenks was stronger, but the difference isn't enough for Boo to recognize. 72 vs 70 billion.

It's not so much that I'm doing it because I dislike him being strong (although I do dislike it), but I am certain that earlier events imply that he's weaker, and I wish to be consistent rather than just saying he's been retconned stronger. The evidence just isn't clear enough to say he's stronger, and I don't want to be inconsistent based on something I can't really explain well anyway. If I come to the conclusion that the Buff Boo we see is accurate to Pure Boo + South Kaioshin, then I will accept South Kaioshin being stronger, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I just have to rethink the whole Boo relationship until I figure out what I believe.

Well I disagree, but this isn't the place for that...

Like I said, it seems odd from a Doylist perspective that Toriyama would have people exposit things that aren't true, seemingly just to throw us for a loop. I don't think he's that kind of author; at this point Kibitoshin was just a way to get out exposition, so if he says Buff Buu = South Kaioshin + Kid Buu, he's probably right.

It really wouldn't create inconsistencies as long as he's still weaker than Kid Buu; I presume you're talking about the Z sword sequence? While it seems a bit odd that he didn't try to pull it, he was never even stated to have tried (we know very little about how the other Kaioshin felt about the Z sword in general). Even if he did try (which there's no evidence for, really) there's a lot of reasons he couldn't have pulled it: it isn't really dependent on ki, he tried when he was younger, anti-Kaioshin seal from a magic using enemy of the Kaioshin, et cetera. On the other hand, there is seemingly a contradiction if someone who is made up of two Cell Games Goku tier guys is stronger than SS2 Vegeta by a mile.

[Son Edo]

Gotenks-absorbed Boo was toying with Gohan until his fusion time ran out.

I'm sure he could have killed Gohan in no time flat if he wanted to.

[Nazi Cola]

Who would be scarier to you?

A) a psychopathic little kid with bipolar disorder that murdered your family, can't be reasoned with, and will flip his lid at the drop of a hat, or
B) a serial killing bodybuilder who follows an obvious pattern, never does things for "shock value," and is pretty intelligent?

[Saiga]

Well I disagree, but this isn't the place for that...

Like I said, it seems odd from a Doylist perspective that Toriyama would have people exposit things that aren't true, seemingly just to throw us for a loop. I don't think he's that kind of author; at this point Kibitoshin was just a way to get out exposition, so if he says Buff Buu = South Kaioshin + Kid Buu, he's probably right.

It really wouldn't create inconsistencies as long as he's still weaker than Kid Buu; I presume you're talking about the Z sword sequence? While it seems a bit odd that he didn't try to pull it, he was never even stated to have tried (we know very little about how the other Kaioshin felt about the Z sword in general). Even if he did try (which there's no evidence for, really) there's a lot of reasons he couldn't have pulled it: it isn't really dependent on ki, he tried when he was younger, anti-Kaioshin seal from a magic using enemy of the Kaioshin, et cetera. On the other hand, there is seemingly a contradiction if someone who is made up of two Cell Games Goku tier guys is stronger than SS2 Vegeta by a mile.

Kaioshin's exposition was just to explain how Fat Boo was the original Boo, so I don't think Buff Boo needs to be the same strength in both situations for that to work.

Well, I think it would. It was not only heavily implied that Boo was stronger than the Kaioshin, but to me it's implied that Gohan is stronger too. Otherwise I don't see why Kaioshin would have so much faith in him, and it does seem odd that they'd make such a big deal out of many Kaioshin failing to pull it out if that's only the case because only weaker Kaioshin tried it. I also think Evil Boo is more than double Pure Boo, so South Kaioshin would have to be stronger than Pure Boo if that's where Evil Boo and Buff Boo's strength comes from.

[RandomGuy96]

I presume you mean Kid Buu? In that case, Kibitoshin specifically calls the Buu everyone just saw Kid Buu after absorbing the South Kaioshin. That exact same Buu.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before?“
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”

Again, what would be the point of showing Buff Buu and have Kibitoshin call him the original Buu with South Kaioshin absorbed if that wasn't true?

Buu can still be much stronger than the South Kaioshin; that's where I have him. Just strong enough to cause Buu pain and give him a big boost if he indeed is addition.

East Kaioshin is kind of an idiot. As is Kibito; he's the one who says that "numerous Kaioshin" failed to remove it, but also mentions himself being unable to pull the sword as a reason for why Gohan can't, even though he doesn't even possess 1% of Gohan's strength, so I wouldn't care much about what he says. Also, it's not a contradiction, it's just implications, and IMO there are more implications for South Kaioshin being above that level, evidenced by Mr. Buu, some anime filler, and Buu actually absorbing him, indicating that something separated him from the previous two. And since all we're ever given about him is that he's stronger than the others...

Why do you think Super Buu is that strong? I'd get if it was to make the stuff with Gotenks work, but you've got SS Gotenks weaker than Fatty. He just needs to be a lot stronger than Goku in that case.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I have South Kaioshin (at least) equaled to Pure boo. So the way I see it is South Kaioshin >= Pure boo. I like to believe that South Kaioshin's power made Majin boo worrisome which can explain why he absorbed him in the first place.

[goku the krump dancer]

Interesting, I personally always had the "Tentacle length = Strength" idea for Boo sitting in the back of mind for quite a few years. But I remember someone mocking it by showing how Kid Boo stretched his head piece at one point, anyways its an interesting theory none the less.

This begs the question though, just how long would Boo's head piece be if he successfully absorbed Gogeta or Vegetto?.. He'd probably be dragging it on the floor.

[RandomGuy96]

If he absorbed just Gogeta? Probably slightly longer than it was when he absorbed Gohan. Gogeta's really not that strong. If he absorbed Vegetto? He'd probably have to keep it tied around his waist or something.

Buu can stretch his head tentacle, that's true, but the theory proposes that the "default" length is indicative of strength. It's got a lot of kinks, though, mainly the rather small difference in length between the head tentacles of Kid and Super. It's hard to see in the image I posted because of the way he's standing, but Super Buu's head tentacle goes a little past his shoulders to his upper back. Here's Kid Buu's:



Contrast Buff Buu's, which almost reaches his waist.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

I don't believe South Kaioshin is around Super Saiyan Gohan's strength level to be honest. That amount power through Boo's absorption, would increase Pure Boo's power by little as 1.5x in the muscular form. South Kaioshin must've increased Pure Boo power enough let's say 3x-4x to make Son Goku shaken his boots at Evil Boo's power.

[RandomGuy96]

Super Buu doesn't even have to be x1.5 stronger than Kid Buu for Goku to shit his pants at the thought of facing him.

I just noticed something else: Super Buu's tentacle may appear to not be as long as it should be because Super Buu is tall while Kid Buu isn't. I'm also having a hard time telling the difference between the lengths of Buuhan's and Buutenks' head tentacles, and it seems clear to me reviewing it that Buff Buu's head tentacle is pretty much at the exact mid point between Buutenks' (roughly down to the knees) and Super Buu's (a little past the shoulders).

Someone should try to do a comparison. I unfortunately can't, as I don't own the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1. How strong do you think South Kaioshin was? Why did Kid Buu absorb him?
2. How strong do you think Buff Buu was?
3. Was South Kaioshin's absorption completely unique?
4. Power Level obsessed folks only: do any of you have a nice looking formula for this?

1. I have him slightly below SS Gohan.
2. Stronger than Boo with Piccolo & kids absorbed, but weaker than Gotenks Boo.
3. I would say yes, because he is a god. Godly ki was also stated that it can't be used for Boo's revival, so Boo & gods seem to have an odd relationship.
4. I go by addition when Boo absorbs mortals (like Saiyans & Namekians), but when he absorbs gods (like Kaioshin), things go differently: it either is a multiplication if the god has a wild personality (I believe that while S. Kaioshin has pure heart, he has a wild part in his personality as a fighter), or by division (Dai Kaioshin was too pure hearted for Boo).

we don't know that South Kaioshin didn't try to fight Boo naked in the manga.

It was stated during the fight with Raditz that those who fight naked are stronger, so I guess that South Kaioshin was naked against Boo, but not when he tried to pull the Z-Sword. Everything makes sense now!

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

Super Buu doesn't even have to be x1.5 stronger than Kid Buu for Goku to shit his pants at the thought of facing him.

Obviously. Anything stronger than Pure Boo even little as 1.5x is Son Goku, Vegeta and Kabtio-Kai's nightmares. Now I'm starting to believe South Kaioshin isn't strong as Super Saiyan 3 tier or Pure Boo.

[RandomGuy96]

He can still be (low) SS3 tier and nowhere near Kid Buu. That's where the anime seemed to have him, and what is implied by Mr. Buu's strength.