Theory on how much power it takes to destroy planets

[rereboy]

Ultimate attack = omnidirectional, meaning it wasn't amped as much, meaning Goku didn't have to amp his own defenses as much, idk how many times I've said.

The point of that example is to show you that fighters can use their Ki and amplify it to raise their defenses and protect their whole body. Nothing else. You are not disagreeing with this and this is all that matters.

Its pointless to discuss if they can do this better by focusing on a single spot or their entire bodies, or any other sort of little detail about the process itself since there are various examples of fighters surviving (sometimes even without much injuries, like Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga) stronger attacks than themselves that they couldn't have hoped to match either in defense or in attack no matter what they did. The fact that they can increase their defenses by amplyfing Ki just helps us understand how they can do it as well as they do against amplified attacks.

You keep insisting on that irrelevant argument that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever and you keep ignoring clear arguments that do have a bearing on the discussion, like fighters surviving attacks stronger than themselves.

Stronger sure. But their strongest single amplified concentrated attack? Nope.

Ok, now I'm convinced you can only be trolling. So, sure, whatever you say... Saiyan arc Vegeta would surely die if he took his own Gallick Gun to the face even though he survived Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha (which defeated his Gallick Gun) to the face... And the theory that fighters might defend better a single spot with their Ki rather than their entire bodies surely proves that they would die from their own strongest attacks, despite all the other arguments in contrary and the examples of fighters surviving attacks stronger than their own strongest attacks...

[Draken]

Ok, now I'm convinced you can only be trolling. So, sure, whatever you say... Saiyan arc Vegeta would surely die if he took his own Gallick Gun to the face even though he survived Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha (which defeated his Gallick Gun) to the face... And the theory that fighters might defend better a single spot with their Ki rather than their entire bodies surely proves that they would die from their own strongest attacks, despite all the other arguments in contrary and the examples of fighters surviving attacks stronger than their own strongest attacks...

Nope, I'm simply agreeing with an opinion other people on this forum have. Are you calling all your peers who disagree with you trolls?
Give me examples of fighters who survived attacks stronger than their own strongest attacks that weren't either A: Known to be extremely durable, B: Already so incredibly stronger than their opponent it doesn't really matter or C: The one example you've given.

[rereboy]

Ok, now I'm convinced you can only be trolling. So, sure, whatever you say... Saiyan arc Vegeta would surely die if he took his own Gallick Gun to the face even though he survived Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha (which defeated his Gallick Gun) to the face... And the theory that fighters might defend better a single spot with their Ki rather than their entire bodies surely proves that they would die from their own strongest attacks, despite all the other arguments in contrary and the examples of fighters surviving attacks stronger than their own strongest attacks...

Nope, I'm simply agreeing with an opinion other people on this forum have. Are you calling all your peers who disagree with you trolls?
Give me examples of fighters who survived attacks stronger than their own strongest attacks that weren't either A: Known to be extremely durable, B: Already so incredibly stronger than their opponent it doesn't really matter or C: The one example you've given.

You do so without offering any sound argument and constantly mentioning irrelevant possibilities/theories. If you actually had a logical and valid argument and if you didn't constantly ignore my arguments without offering any refutal for them, I wouldn't call you a troll.

Oh, you want other examples? Let's see... How about when Freeza attacked Goku with all his remaining power at the end of their fight, and Goku easily overpowered him with an attack greater than the power Freeza had at the moment and hit him right on? Not only did that not kill Freeza, Freeza endured Namek's explosion right after that and he still didn't die.
Or how about when Piccolo Jr tanked Goku's Super Kamehameha without any visible injury, despite the fact that the Super Kamehameha had proven to be superior to Piccolo Jr's attacks?
Are you also gonna ignore these?

Toughness or lack of toughness has never made any fighter in Dragon Ball die from an attack equal to their own power. Every fighter who has ever died in Dragon Ball died because they were overpowered and received attacks greater or much greater than their own. I'll tell you what, find me an example of someone dying of an attack equal to their own power in Dragon Ball. Now that would be an argument in your favor.

[Draken]

Argument sounds sound to me, stop giving a completely subjective view to try to say I'm "trolling". Are you running out of arguments or something?

Freeza is extremely durable, was that not already established? He had literally 0 ki left, what ki do you think went to amping his defenses? He was literally like, a brain and a head and he survived, I don't think even full power Vegetto could do that.

According to V-Jump scans, Goku and Piccolo's powers were pretty much even and you can look at it that Goku's Kamehameha multiplier was barely 1.05... uh not very hard to tank.

Vegeta vs Monster Zarbon?
The two were near equals, Vegeta didn't use a visible highly amplified attack to kill him, Zarbon just threw him into the ground in round 1...
Vegeta vs Dodoria?
Same as above.

I never argued they couldn't raise their defenses somewhat, so slightly higher levels yes. But they can't raise their defense 3417294x higher than normal.

[rereboy]

First, I never argued that Freeza had zero Ki. I said that he survived a ki blast stronger than one he could produce and a planet exploding in his face. And I never said he wasn't durable, I simply said that no fighter would be killed by an attack that only matches his or hers power without surpassing it. Freeza is just one more example of fighters surviving attacks even stronger than their own power. Please do read carefully what I write and don't put things that I didn't say or implied in my mouth.

Second, I'm not the one without any arguments. I asked you to provide me with an example of a fighter being killed by an attack as strong as his own power. Did you provide one? No. Instead you mentioned that Piccolo Jr didn't have much trouble tanking Goku's attack because their power level was about even and Goku's multiplier wasn't very big. Or, in other words, Piccolo didn't have much trouble tanking the Super Kamehameha because it didn't surpass him by much. Did I did read this correctly? Because it seems to me that you are saying that Piccolo didn't have much trouble tanking the Super Kamehameha because it didn't surpass him by much, while you are defending that a fighter would die if hit by an attack that matches his power. Can't you see that those two phrases are incompatible and opposite? . And then you take offense when I say you must be trolling. How can I not when you say things like that?

Third, Zarbon VS Vegeta.... On the first fight, Zarbon was stronger so he defeated Vegeta. He wasn't a lot stronger but he was still stronger. None of them died. On the second fight Vegeta was now stronger than Zarbon thanks to a zenkai. He overpowered Zarbon and killed him with attacks that surpassed Zarbon's power. How do these fights go agaisnt anything that I stated?

And finally I never stated that they could raise their defenses 3417294x higher than normal. I merely said that they can increase their defenses by amplifying their Ki, pretty much like they do when they amplify Ki to attack. I never once mentioned how much their defenses would rise by doing this, I only said that they do rise. So once again, please don't put words in my mouth.

Anyway, I'm tired of this subject. I won't discuss it again. If you think that you provided sound arguments, good for you. I disagree, though, and I'm even confused as to how you can even believe that you provided sound arguments to go agaisnt what I stated, but whatever. You can have any opinion you like, but I, for one, would prefer if you actually had good grounds to support it in a discussion. That's what makes discussions great, well thought out opinions being discussed while sound and supported arguments and examples are being used.

[Draken]

How about YOU read carefully because I specifically said don't bother giving me an example when we already know said fighter was extremely extremely durable. For example, FREEZA.

Uh have you been reading my posts? I don't think you've been reading my posts have you been reading my posts? I said they could amp their defenses, obviously, BUT not to a degree in which they could tank their strongest attack, like some shit that has a 4x multiplier. Because it's highly amplified and concentrated TO ONE POINT, CONCENTRATED, it is not spread out.

Think of walking on snow. When they concentrate their attacks, they are focusing all of their weight into one spot, ie; heels of feet. However, when you wear snowshoes, you are spreading it out and you don't sink as much. Hmmm. Concentrating adds more weight, spreading it out adds less weight... whoa?

It's very debatable whether or not Vegeta was actually stronger than Monster Zarbon seeing as Vegeta had to resort to dirty tricks to defeat him.

Anyway, I'm tired of this subject. I won't discuss it again. If you think that you provided sound arguments, good for you. I disagree, though, and I'm even confused as to how you can even believe that you provided sound arguments to go agaisnt what I stated, but whatever. You can have any opinion you like, but I, for one, would prefer if you actually had good grounds to support it in a discussion. That's what makes discussions great, well thought out opinions being discussed while sound and supported arguments and examples are being used.

Damn another subjective post. If YOU think you provided sound arguments, good for you. I disagree, though, and I'm even confused as to how you can even believe that you provided sound arguments to go against what I stated. You can obviously have any opinion you like, as this is a forum debating a very messy series and there's pretty much no solid fact, but I'd prefer if you actually had good grounds to support it in a discussion. That's what makes discussions and forums great, peers respecting each other and treating each other as equals and taking each and every opinion at face value due to no two person's being alike.

But I guess you just can't grasp that concept can you?

[rereboy]

I'll make it very clear for you as a final effort to make my opinion and arguments clear as crystal and to explain why I disagree with yours.

In my opinion, if a fighter can reach a power level of, for example, 9000 (even if only with with an amplified attack) he wouldn't die from an attack of 9000. Why do I say this? Because it is shown in the manga that fighters can amp their defense with their Ki (pretty much like they do with their attacks), because there are several examples of fighters not only surviving attacks as strong as their own power but also stronger, and there's not one example of a fighter actually dying from an attack that merely matches his own power.
This goes without saying, but to be even more clear and specific, I'm talking about in the single moment of attack of course. If a fighter capable of reaching 9000 in power level, is, at a single moment, only able to produce 2000 in power because he is injured or tired or his keeping his power that low on purpose, and he takes an attack of 9000, he might die just like Vegeta would have died from Krillin's attack if Dende hadn't healed him in Namek, because, at that moment, the attack would have surpassed his own current power. That's also why Goku's blast overpowered Freeza's blast easily at the end of their fight and nearly killed him, even though it looked like a regular blast which wouldn't hurt Freeza if he was at full power.

However, you disagree with this opinion of mine. What you provided to back up this is that you think that the fighters can protect themselves better in a single spot than on their whole bodies (how this translates into them not surviving attacks that can only match their own power, I fail to see, since it doesn't contradict any of my arguments or examples), that they can't increase their defenses by 837848 times (something that I never claimed to happen, and that doesn't need to happen for them to survive an attack merely as strong as they are), you dismissed the various examples of fighters surviving stronger attacks than themselves because you believe that's only because of their toughness (even though there's not a single example of a fighter not as tought as them dying from an attack that merely matches their own power), you stated the second Zarbon and Vegeta fight as an example of fighters evenly matched (even though you neglect to say that Vegeta clearly had the upper hand the entire fight and didn't kill Zarbon until he had seriously weakened him into a state that he was more clearly than ever inferior to Vegeta), and you state that the reason why Piccolo Jr tanked the Super Kamehameha is because the attack didn't surpass him by much (even though you are claiming that a fighter would die from an attack that merely matched his own power).

And now, you decided to simply repeat what I stated back to me. Great. That just puts a nice final "nail" on the discussion.

[VegettoEX]

How about YOU read carefully

Uh have you been reading my posts? I don't think you've been reading my posts have you been reading my posts?

But I guess you just can't grasp that concept can you?

This epitomizes everything that is wrong with these types of discussions. A temporary ban has been issued. Formal warnings lodged by the moderation team will start going onto other accounts past this point. Multiple warnings result in temporary bans. Warnings past temporary bans result in complete and permanent removal from the entirety of Kanzenshuu (that's the forum and the larger website as a whole).

All forumites, please review the forum rules -- which you agreed to twice prior to registration -- before making any further contributions. In short, be awesome. The above is not awesome.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think this is an overall good approach, but I think Earth's busting level should be 16,000-18,000.