Are you happy that Toriyama made Goku the hero again?

[TheGmGoken]

Isn't SSJ2 just an extended rage boast that Gohan gets time from time.

[ABED]

The boys and Gohan have already shown far more potential then Goku and Vegeta. They only lack a drive which balances out how overpowered they would be if they did have the same drive. If they all trained like Goku, then he would be out of business real fast. SSJ2 is not Gohan's full hidden powers.

Potential doesn't pay the bills, and yes, SS2 IS Gohan's full hidden powers. If it wasn't that would be cheap. "This is gohan's hidden power, no THIS is Gohan's hidden power". At a certain point that reserve runs dry and it boils down to effort. If SS2 isn't Gohan's full hidden power, what is?

[Cursed Lemon]

To say whether a story arc is good, or well thought out, usually refers to whether or not it has a coherent holistic theme that goes along with it. The nature of Goku's character archetype is that he powers through insurmountable obstacles by sheer determination and hard work. This is a great moral lesson to a series like DBZ and a fantastic way to end any particular arc, but naturally Goku is not the only character in the series, and thus we have to sometimes allow other characters to take the spotlight. How this progresses through the series, and whom specifically is the winner of any particular struggle, is not an easy thing to map out.

Let's look at each major battle up to the Cell arc.

* Goku & PIccolo vs. Raditz - Goku and Piccolo are no match for him, and it is only thanks to some key interference by a prodigious Gohan that they are allowed to prevail, with Goku sacrificing himself to secure victory. There isn't much substance to this battle, and it is more a machina element and emotional portrait more than anything.

* Z Fighters vs. Nappa & Vegeta - A wide array of characters train diligently for one year, but are unable to effectively combat two super warriors who proceed to kill them off one by one. This has a superpowered Goku waiting in the wing, and is the first instance in DBZ in which we are made aware of Goku's unusual strength. He achieves this via dedicated training, but it is often remarked that his increase in power is highly unusual, which is a key element in Goku's character design; he is simply a strong individual with all other factors removed, and has a high ceiling. The theme of Gohan's hidden power continues to be drawn out, and it is clearly shown that the saiyans are on another level compared to the human and Namekian characters.

* Gohan vs. Namek - Gohan fights a few different people on Namek, and with each encounter he is shown to have similar flashes of brilliance. He does, though, receive a "cheater" powerup from Guru, an inexplicable boost in ability that is subverted more than once throughout the series. We're being shown that Gohan's power simply isn't enough, that anger isn't getting him where he needs to go, and that it is simply not his time yet - he's a stored plot device.

* Vegeta vs. Freeza - Freeza is stylized as the terrifying pinnacle of power from which we have been building to ever since Raditz. Vegeta's main tool is his ruthlessness and sheer uninhibited aggression, a motive that finds him falling far short of Freeza's power, even after multiple zenkais. Vegeta's tearful death is the completion of this tragedy, which is meant to both teach us that Vegeta's life is a lesson to be heeded, as well as provides a foundation for Goku's propulsion to victory.

* Goku vs. Freeza - Goku underwent an incredibly intense training regimen to achieve the kind of power he had when he landed on Namek. A zenkai later, he is able to match Freeza initially, but Freeza's power is simply just too great. Up until now, Goku has been stylized as an honorable figure who fights with a level head. It requires the death and mortal injury of two close friends for him to completely lose his grip, tap into an incredible and angry power, which lifts him far above Freeza's limits. This fact isn't really built upon, and honestly it's just super-powered Goku fighting Freeza as per normal. He doesn't appreciably increase his aggression, he doesn't fight with wild abandon, but the legend of the super saiyan is at least expounded.

* Vegeta vs. Androids - Vegeta shows himself to be a super saiyan after Goku's disease incapacitates him. He explains his methods of arriving to that level of power, but his abandonment of care for the rivalry is yet another instance of a plot element that isn't extrapolated. He's just Vegeta, but a super saiyan. He's then beaten by 17 and 18, who return him to a state of hubris. It's hard to say what the meaning of this battle is, perhaps a fast-tracking of showing that Vegeta's arrogance still will not allow him to be the victor.

* Vegeta & Trunks vs. Cell - Vegeta and Trunks complete their training in the time chamber, and show off their attaining of a level beyond super saiyan. Their eventual defeats, however, seem to suggest that they were training the wrong way, or have an incorrect view of training and the progression of power, and somehow are not as intuitive of fighters as Goku.

* Gohan vs. Cell - Goku's training has made him an incredible power, but he falls short of Cell's strength and he knows it. He passes it off to Gohan, who he claims is stronger, but Gohan is incapable of overtaking Cell. Unlike Goku's SSJ transformation, Gohan's SSJ2 is hard-hearted and truly angry, which was a much better handling of an emotional eruption of that caliber. The eventual destruction of Cell is a very satisfying mesh of teamwork, victory through necessity, and torch-passing.

When you look at the Buu arc, however, things really don't add up. There are SO MANY new transformations and forms that are discovered, as well as huge moments like Vegeta's sacrifice, and not a single one of them results in any level of victory. Ironically enough, this is the only instance in which the genki dama actually kills something in the main series. Gohan's rise to power makes absolutely no sense - he doesn't train for years and years, and suddenly blows Vegeta and Goku out of the water due to a cheater boost? The fusion of two super saiyans in Goten and Trunks, a pair of children with prodigious levels of power, results in a singular being that can achieve SSJ3...and we never even really get to see even a fraction of his true power? Vegetto is the ultimate fighter of the entire DBZ show, and he fails to eliminate Buu on what basically amounts to a technicality? SSJ3 Goku proves to be the most useless character since future Trunks.

Goku is lauded as the hero and ultimately destroys Buu with a concession speech from Vegeta detailing his miraculous and savior-like powers, but all of the other characters have their elements completely wasted, and Goku doesn't actually win by virtue of his personal strength - he wins on luck and with the support of many other people to feed the genki dama. The lesson is completely diluted.

[ABED]

I don't think the lesson is diluted. In most series, there's a main character who brings down the big bad and usually with some help from the supporting cast. Buffy did that a lot.

By the way, Gohan's aggression only increases at first, but after Cell starts self destructing, he reverts back to the child he is. Goku's rage does cause him to yell at Gohan, but it's in character for Goku to gain control of himself. Gohan is a ball of emotion going back to the beginning of the series, whereas Goku is far more in control of himself.

[dbzfan7]

The boys and Gohan have already shown far more potential then Goku and Vegeta. They only lack a drive which balances out how overpowered they would be if they did have the same drive. If they all trained like Goku, then he would be out of business real fast. SSJ2 is not Gohan's full hidden powers.

Potential doesn't pay the bills, and yes, SS2 IS Gohan's full hidden powers. If it wasn't that would be cheap. "This is gohan's hidden power, no THIS is Gohan's hidden power". At a certain point that reserve runs dry and it boils down to effort. If SS2 isn't Gohan's full hidden power, what is?

Seriously if Gohan and the boys were given the same drive as Goku, then Goku would be left in the dust. That's why they have the drive problem, so Goku doesn't get left behind. SSJ2 is NOT his full hidden potential. The whole point of the Elder Kaioshin was to bring out his hidden power and bring it way..way beyond it's limits. They mention both bringing out his hidden power an taking it beyond those limits. Ergo SSJ2 is NOT his full hidden power unleashed. It is only the amount he could tap into at the time.

What Lemon said. The Boo saga has so many forms and shit that lead to absolutely nothing. Goku's win was purely luck based.

[ABED]

The boys and Gohan have already shown far more potential then Goku and Vegeta. They only lack a drive which balances out how overpowered they would be if they did have the same drive. If they all trained like Goku, then he would be out of business real fast. SSJ2 is not Gohan's full hidden powers.

Potential doesn't pay the bills, and yes, SS2 IS Gohan's full hidden powers. If it wasn't that would be cheap. "This is gohan's hidden power, no THIS is Gohan's hidden power". At a certain point that reserve runs dry and it boils down to effort. If SS2 isn't Gohan's full hidden power, what is?

Seriously if Gohan and the boys were given the same drive as Goku, then Goku would be left in the dust. That's why they have the drive problem, so Goku doesn't get left behind. SSJ2 is NOT his full hidden potential. The whole point of the Elder Kaioshin was to bring out his hidden power and bring it way..way beyond it's limits. They mention both bringing out his hidden power an taking it beyond those limits. Ergo SSJ2 is NOT his full hidden power unleashed. It is only the amount he could tap into at the time.

But they aren't, and that's what makes them different than him. Even with that, I don't think it's neccessarily true. They might have more natural power than him but Goku is a far better fighter than they are. Goku would never be left behind, he wouldn't allow it.

Exactly, Kaioshin released it BEYOND Gohan's limits. The same could happen to Goku. Gohan's bar can't keep being moved. It's cheap and only a way for Gohan to remain relevant because it sure as hell ain't effort.

[dbzfan7]

But they aren't, and that's what makes them different than him. Even with that, I don't think it's neccessarily true. They might have more natural power than him but Goku is a far better fighter than they are. Goku would never be left behind, he wouldn't allow it.

Exactly, Kaioshin released it BEYOND Gohan's limits. The same could happen to Goku. Gohan's bar can't keep being moved. It's cheep and only a way for Gohan to remain relevant because it sure as hell ain't effort.

Gohan and the boys would easily leave him in the dust. They make gains much quicker than Goku does and are super prodigies. Goku could never keep up with them if they trained as hard and as well as Goku does. That's why the drive weakness is thrown in. The boys are so special and incredibly gifted that Goku wanted to make them his successors because they can do what he can and in much less time if taught properly.

Gohan's potential was never brought to it's limit. Guru wasn't even close. The Elder Kaioshin was stated to not only bring out his potential out to maximum, but go way beyond even that. Goku's potential is not even close to Gohan's or the boys. Gohan's dormant power is described as greater than Goku's. If it were already all out then SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ3 Goku which isn't true. This was a staple since Gohan was introduced.

[ABED]

GOku is also a prodigy who made great gains over his lifetime, the question is if they would hit walls and be willing to move past them like Goku does. I don't think they would have the talent to think of Goku's strategy in the Room of Spirit and Time to make Super Saiyan their natural state and build from there.

The Grand Elder's ability was to awaken dormant power, and every time Toriyama needed Gohan to go up a level, he gave Gohan more hidden power, and I don't think Kaioshin stated that he would bring Gohan to his limits, it's a moot point anyways because he says what makes his technique different is that it draws power past its normal limits. Goku could definitely benefit from that. The whole point of Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 was that he finally released the hidden depths of his powers.

If it were already all out then SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ3 Goku which isn't true. This was a staple since Gohan was introduced.

Where did you get that idea?

Gohan may have dormant power but Goku has no limits, and he doesn't rest on his ass which is what makes him a far more compelling hero.

[dbzfan7]

GOku is also a prodigy who made great gains over his lifetime, the question is if they would hit walls and be willing to move past them like Goku does. I don't think they would have the talent to think of Goku's strategy in the Room of Spirit and Time to make Super Saiyan their natural state and build from there.

The Grand Elder's ability was to awaken dormant power, and every time Toriyama needed Gohan to go up a level, he gave Gohan more hidden power, and I don't think Kaioshin stated that he would bring Gohan to his limits, it's a moot point anyways because he says what makes his technique different is that it draws power past its normal limits. Goku could definitely benefit from that. The whole point of Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 was that he finally released the hidden depths of his powers.

If it were already all out then SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ3 Goku which isn't true. This was a staple since Gohan was introduced.

Where did you get that idea?

Gohan may have dormant power but Goku has no limits, and he doesn't rest on his ass which is what makes him a far more compelling hero.

Like I said if they were just like Goku. Goku would join the Yamcha crew of worthless.

SSJ2 is not the depths of his powers or else he wouldn't be able to make massive gains without transformations. Part way through the ritual the Elder Kaioshin even says he must have massive potential if he isn't done yet.

Goku does have limits. His gains have become smaller and smaller over the course of the series. his last notable gains were only through transformations. His base state didn't even double. Goku's gains are getting smaller and he's gonna hit the accelerated aging point where it will be all downhill.

I already saw your view of a hero so no need to debate on that one.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku would never be left behind, he wouldn't allow it.

IS that why in BOG he is still weaker than Mystic Gohan and perhaps SSJ3 Gotenks? Hell if what Akira Toriyama said is true then Goku has NO hopes of being ahead of Gohan(I'm not using SSG). So yes Goku did get left behind in the dusk. Also what you mean he would't allow it? He wanted that to happen. How many times have Goku in the Cell games and Boo Arc said let the younger ones fight or Gohan is stronger than me by a great deal. Hell he wanted Gohan to keep on training which is why he ask "You're most likely stronger than you were as a Kid". So the gap would had increase had Gohan kept training thus leaving Goku in the dusk.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS2 Gohan was never supposed to be Gohan's maximum limits. It was supposed to show us that Gohan had power in him that was beyond Goku's.

Gohan, Goten, and Trunks are Saiyan Halflings. They are stated to have higher dormant power than normal Saiyans, and they also have more incredible feats than Goku.

Gohan was 4 years old & completely untrained, yet he was stronger than Goku & Piccolo combined. I should remind you that Goku had trained under two of Earth's greatest martial artist (Muten Roshi & Son Gohan), under God's attendant (Karin), and even with God himself. He had even drunk the Super God Water to draw his dormant powers. And he was 24 years old. Furthermore, Gohan at 5 years old was stronger than Goku after training with Kaio. At his 10, he turned into a Super Saiyan, and later a Super Saiyan 2. He had also surpassed his 30-year-old father as a Super Saiyan at that point. Then, his father surpassed him, but only because he had the idea of Super Saiyan 3, and because Gohan didn't train, and Goku was still not even twice stronger than the untrained Gohan. Then Gohan had his dormant power drawn out past his limits, and became at least a hundred of times stronger than his father.

Goten & Trunks achieved & mastered Super Saiyan before the age of 7, and achieved power not very far from their fathers' power, and they did all that just by "playing fighting" by themselves. They were not very far behind even Gohan. As Gotenks, they managed to achieve easily Super Saiyan 3 as well, and create the most complicated & weird technique in the series: Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Even the Future version of Trunks managed to become over 50 times stronger after 3 years, without any sparring partners, RoSaT, gravity training, or any master to guide him, and he could also catch up with Vegeta inside the RoSaT, and go beyond Super Saiyan, and even master it after his second trip in RoSaT.

The whole point is that Goku wasn't a prodigy. He became a prodigy thanks to his passion & his hard work. Gohan, Gotan, and Trunks, however, are prodigies since birth, but they lack the passion. Had they have the passion for getting stronger like Goku & Vegeta do, they would be far, far, far stronger than their fathers. And besides, Goku told to Gohan that his ultimate goal is for him to make Gohan the strongest in the universe, with him as the second strongest in the universe. But now that there is Goten, Oob, and Pan, I guess that he wants his descendants & student to surpass him as well, and it's possible. Goten has already surpassed him with Fusion, and has the potential to surpass him even without it (he probably did, since DBO states that Goten & Trunks begun hard training again). Oob has the highest dormant power in the series, and he is about to get trained by Goku in the end. Pan is a Saiyan Halfling, with probably huge dormant powers as well, and she seems to have inherited Goku's passion for fighting as well.

So, if Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Oob were to surpass Goku, it would make Goku extremely pleased to be the #5 in the universe, since that's his ultimate goal in the end of the manga.

[Toriyama-sama]

Yes, I am very happy. Goku is my favourite character (unoriginal, I know) tied with Piccolo and Mr. Satan and, in fact, him defeating Majin Boo has to be my second favourite moment from the entire Dragon Ball series, right next to GT's ending.

I also remember watching that arc on TV, after having faithfully followed the series since episode 1, and it was the one time when I was really afraid (I was seven or eight years old at the time) the bad guys might actually win in the end ( ). Every time a new hope appeared, it soon got completely shattered; even fusions had failed, Earth itself was no more, and the battle of Good vs Evil seemed to have reached the point of despair. I always kept rooting for the good guys and trying to figure out beforehand what options they had left. I had hoped for a new Super Saiyan form, a fusion between Goku and Vegeta and a final Genki-Dama, among many other things, and as it turned out I usually got what I had wished for

So, yeah, I have pretty fond memories of those times and absolutely loved how it all played out in the end.

But in all honesty, I find it weird how some people can have a problem with Goku being the one to end it. He is the main character, after all. As for Gohan, although I liked him better in the Saiyan/Freeza arc(s), I think he is an okay character. Not great, but okay, albeit somewhat annoying at times, and not deserving of the main spotlight, especially since he had had it already.

[ABED]

Fused characters don't count, and Gohan had a mystical power up that Goku didn't. If Gotenks counts, then so does Vegetto who is easily the strongest character on the show.

All those times you show Gohan surpassing Goku, he did it first, and it was because Goku showed that path that Gohan anyone was able to reach those levels. Goku is an innovator, everyone else plays catch up. Gohan may have had latent power when he was a child, but when we first see him, he was easily defeated because it only went up when Gohan was angry.

and Goku was still not even twice stronger than the untrained Gohan.
So what if he wasn't? Let's throw out a number and say Gohan's PL was 200 million. If Goku's as SS3 was 100 million, that's still a bigger gap than the difference between them during the Saiyan arc.

and became at least a hundred of times stronger than his father.

Where did that number come from? Assuming that's true, there's nothing stopping Goku from getting the same power up.

achieved power not very far from their fathers' power

Where did you get this idea?

he could also catch up with Vegeta inside the RoSaT

Trunks had a leg up on Vegeta, he was a Super Saiyan longer, and secondly, it's not exactly clear how much stronger he was than Vegeta, if at all. Trunks relied on pure strength, whereas Vegeta understood the tradeoff and didn't make that mistake.

No, Goku was a prodigy, he augmented it with hard work. He mastered the Kamehameha almost immediately after seeing it once.

Goku's goal is to be the strongest. He didn't let Goten and Trunks fight, he wanted them to fight because they were alive. That fact changed the second he was revived.

Every villain he ever faced, he eventually surpassed, Goku will always push himself harder and further than anyone. It's who he is.

[dbzfan7]

Goku getting the Elder kaioshins power up would sill not put him close to Ultimate Gohan.

[ABED]

Goku getting the Elder kaioshins power up would sill not put him close to Ultimate Gohan.

That's conjecture.

[TheGmGoken]

If Gotenks counts, then so does Vegetto who is easily the strongest character on the show.

You're acting like that's a big deal or make a difference. Either way Goku is left in the dusk.

Gohan had a mystical power up that Goku didn't.

Goku had a 375 Zenkai boast that Gohan never gotten.

All those times you show Gohan surpassing Goku, he did it first, and it was because Goku showed that path that Gohan anyone was able to reach those levels.

Gohan on Namek was stronger than Goku for a short while due to Zenkai and the fact Goku was healing. Goku did nothing for that one. Mystic Gohan had NOTHING to do with Goku. Goku only made Goku break the sword. Only time Goku showed the path was with Cell.

Goku is an innovator, everyone else plays catch up.

. Goku always play catch up. Every arc he does it,. Every since Z portion started,

So what if he wasn't?

Goku trained for 7 YEARS and Gohan did not. The fact remains Goku don;t have good gains

Goku's goal is to be the strongest. He didn't let Goten and Trunks fight, he wanted them to fight because they were alive. That fact changed the second he was revived.

Explain why he wanted Gohan to surpass him. Even if he was going by rage boast. Had Gohan kept training he would destroy Goku.

Goku always plays catch-up and gets surpassed. Hell even by the end of the series Gohan > Goku. That's saying A LOT.

That's conjecture.

It's a fact. It was stated many times that Half Saiyans have more dormant or hidden power than full saiyans. Only thing GOku has over the halfies is the fact he trains.

[dbzfan7]

Goku getting the Elder kaioshins power up would sill not put him close to Ultimate Gohan.

That's conjecture.

No it's not. Gohan has always shown massive potential far surpassing Goku. Every guidebook states Gohan's potential is greater than Goku's. So it's only logical Gohan would still get a bigger boost as his potential is much larger. Only a Goku fanboy would think Goku would get the same amount of power through a potential boost.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku getting the Elder kaioshins power up would sill not put him close to Ultimate Gohan.

That's conjecture.

No it's not. Gohan has always shown massive potential far surpassing Goku. Every guidebook states Gohan's potential is greater than Goku's. So it's only logical Gohan would still get a bigger boost as his potential is much larger. Only a Goku fanboy would think Goku would get the same amount of power through a potential boost.

No guidebook said Gohan have better potential. The guidebooks said Half Saiyans. So don't forget Goten and Trunks next time xD. That's rude to say Goku fanboy. Just say someone who supports MCD(Main Character disease) which makes Main characters the strongest. But seriously it's inlogical for Goku to surpass Gohan even if he train. Oob is the only hope of a hero besides Vegetto to surpass Gohan. Even Akira Toriyama said Goku was at his peak at BoG and he still was weaker than Gohan. So pretty much age screws him of any chance of surpassing Gohan.

Take this debate to this Topic
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=24572

[ABED]

Potential, but there's no way to know what degree Gohan would've been stronger, if at all.

Only a Goku fanboy would think Goku would get the same amount of power through a potential boost.

I take no shame in that, but there's plenty of evidence to show that no matter how many times Gohan got stronger than him, eventually Goku surpassed him. Gohan will never leave his father in the dust. Regardless, Goku is a much more proactive character than Gohan, and that's why he's the better hero.

So pretty much age screws him of any chance of surpassing Gohan.

I'll accept that, but Goku never got nearly all the effortless power ups. There's no telling how strong he would've gotten if he got the Kaioshin power up.

I haven't seen Battle of Gods, is there a reason Goku gets the powerup instead of Gohan?

[TheGmGoken]

Potential, but there's no way to know what degree Gohan would've been stronger, if at all.

Only a Goku fanboy would think Goku would get the same amount of power through a potential boost.

I take no shame in that, but there's plenty of evidence to show that no matter how many times Gohan got stronger than him, eventually Goku surpassed him. Gohan will never leave his father in the dust. Regardless, Goku is a much more proactive character than Gohan, and that's why he's the better hero.

So pretty much age screws him of any chance of surpassing Gohan.

I'll accept that, but Goku never got nearly all the effortless power ups.

HEY take this to the thread DBZFAN made >_>. C/P everything you said(use quote)