Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Ajay » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:42 pm

- Feedback as requested -

Art Styles:
Whoever does these needs to be your primary artist. That's bang on point with the art of the manga/series and that's one of the most important aspects when creating something like this. You want it to feel a part of the franchise and if your art is bad or off looking then you're losing a huge potential readership.

This and the rest of his drawings, for example, seem very off. As standalone drawings they're great but with regards to mimicking the artstyle, something seems very off. Same can be said of many of the pictures mentioned in this post. All fantastic art by themselves but quite far removed from what I'd be comfortable seeing in a fan-manga.

Basically...if it's not Maniaxoi or someone who's drawing and colouring is identical then I'm personally not going to be interested.

Characters:

Pretty much all of your character designs are fantastic, even hidden behind art I don't like, I can see ideas that look really great. My only recommendation is that, with all of the designs you've got, it's essential to work out what's relevant and what needs to be binned. There's not a chance you can use all of them without them feeling forced or underdeveloped so make sure you spend some time deciding what's going to be relevant to your story and how it gets introduced in a way that is natural. Long exposition has never been a huge part of the series so, whilst it's a fan project and I understand you want to keep within the style of the franchise, you need to really edit and put in only the essentials of each detail. There's always the chance to include a character page with extensive information is you so please.

In terms of costume, it's always tempting to make everyone look unique. Dragon Ball has characters that are all well designed in their own right but they all have costumes that fit together and signify a certain type of group. For example, all the
main characters are in dōgi, Freeza's crowd has their battle armour and Buu arc villains were colourful and floaty - They all clearly fit together and that's such an essential part of design. When it comes to your villains, decide on a basic costume structure and build from there.

Story:

Fundamental basics of writing - three act structure. Keep it basic, this isn't the Tree of Life, this is Dragon Ball and whilst you're well within your right to go off on your own path with twists and turns and writing style, just remember the origins of this tale.

So, I'd like to break down your main points with regards to the plot and just write a little on what you may want to consider when writing each element.
*Set in a alternate Universe/Timeline (whatever fits manga canon) where all the Kaioshin die in a battle against Buu.
That's an interesting idea but does this facilitate the rest of the plot? Is it a necessary change or is it just there to establish that this is an alternate universe? If it is relevant then perhaps use that as your prologue before introducing the hook that will serve as the main objective for your characters. What is their goal? How does this relate to the prologue, what are the steps they'll take and what will stop them along the way?
*The cast is made up of nearly entirely original characters created by members of the project. Very little characters from the actual series will be in it.
A bold move and one I commend you on - that's not an easy feat! Every character throughout the universe has been developed slowly over many volumes into very complex characters. Being a fan manga, chances are, you won't have the length to do this. The way to get around that is to do exactly as Toryiama does when he introduces his characters for the first time. He gives everyone a single, powerful trait that allows the reader to think 'okay, so this guy is about this'. For example, Goku - from the get go we know he's a bit dim but he has a good heart and is dedicated to his art. Sure, he evolves over time but that's the fundamental part of Goku that never really changes and that was established within the first few pages of DB.

It's not easy to do at all but you know your characters - write out their main personality trait and then brainstorm ways you can articulate this whilst keeping it plot appropriate.
*Includes elements from GT and AF such as SSJ4 and SSJ5, both with alternate designs such as varying colors.
Alternative universe, sure, why not? Just make sure there's some exposition as to why things are the way they are.
*The Saiyans aren't nearly extinct and instead have a Empire spanning nearly half the universe.
Is this an important plot detail and if so, how will you show this in your writing? Will you visit a planet occupied by the Saiyans and see some hierarchical ruling? Will they encounter the inhabitants of that planet and learn of their regime through them? My point is, you don't want to introduce these differences if they have little bearing on the plot. You can always show what kind of people the Saiyans are like through the characters rather than showing their world. Take Vegeta and Nappa as an example - you never see what their race were like initially but you can tell right away by how they react to each other. There's clearly a hierarchy between Vegeta and Nappa and this is pretty much explained when he refers to himself as Prince Vegeta.
*No recurring villains from the original series or movies will be included, all original and fan created.
Purpose and an interesting personality is all that's really needed here. Dragon Ball's villains are great but aside from the jinzoningen, you never really too much about them as people. The main focus has always been their goal and then some unique aspect of their personality. Freeza's aristocratic tone, Buu's sadistic tone or Cell's calm but menacing demeanor - they're all very simple traits but incredibly memorable.
*Yes, other races beside the Saiyans will have chances to shine.
Don't overload your manga with too many characters and races just to say 'hey look, we have variety!' - it's okay to introduce other races and have them save the day but you need a primary focus or it's going to feel unorganised.

==========

So that's pretty much all I can think of! You've got an artist who knows how to draw perfectly, you've got some great ideas that have the potential to evolve into fantastic, it's now down to you to make sure it happens! Rush nothing, keep us informed with sketches and previews and finally, good luck!
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:11 pm

Yes that was Maniaxoi who did the SSJ3 group image. I have asked him to become the artist but sadly hes busy with commissions and admits he traces a lot for the most part. I'm sure youll find 3 similarities from the Rise of SSJ3 image to some of Young Jijii's pages and single arts. As I said in earlier posts we are looking for a artist whos well trained in the Toriyama art style but its been challenging. My ultimate dream would be Young Jijii doing it but thats sadly impossible. I'm thinking of asking Charlotte (artist doing the Multiverse Vegito special right now) or even Gogeta Jr if I can find him. His early Multiverse stuff was fantastic.

Regarding character design I see where your coming from. There needs to be a unifying feature in their appearance symbolizing their role like oh these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. Once a artist is found some of the character designs will be altered to further suit the Toriyama style of art. I know it can look jarring right now because of so many artists using their own style for their characters.

Regarding story, it is gonna be more than 3 arcs, as of right now it may be 6 or 7, each having a primary focus on certain characters so everyone feels fleshed out with side stories on the side, kinda like the Trunk's and Bardock specials that show what happens off panel and no it wont be like multiverse where they would just pop up in the middle of the actual story and break the pacing.

I get what your saying about the personalities and giving them a single main one like Goku is the good guy who loves to fight. Thing is, i dont want the characters to feel rather..I wanna say one dimensional. I want them to have depth, be able to identify with, seem like they could be real people. I'm not saying Toriyama's characters are simple to a fault, but I do want the characters of DBSW to have more depth than the ones in DBZ.

I'm trying to keep spoilers to a minimum so I cant really reveal why some plot points but I will do a timeline/event comparison chart between DBSW and DBZ so everyone can see the key differences.

Regarding villains we have them all currently established except for maybe one or two in the later arcs but for the most part were set on that matter.

I get what your saying about other races but I think its safe to reveal the other races used for the main characters. One is a Konatsian (Tapion's race), a Kori-seijin (our term for Freeza's race) and a Hera-jin (Bojack's race). All appropriately punned of their race's respective punn sources (Tapion's may be a stretch though).

I almost could have launched the project a while ago but after some consulting with Malik (DBNA's creator) about manga canon, I put the project through a revamp but id say things are going well. Reviewing the plot multiple times, making sure it syncs up with manga canon, smoothing out any wrinkles in character development.

Ill be posting the comparison chart in a few so you can see the timeline/event differences for yourselves. I would like a official DBZ timeline as the one I'm using comes from the DBZ wiki...yeah dont wanna rely on that.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
DBSW Group Page - http://dbsw.deviantart.com/
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:13 am

Heres the DBSW timeline alongside the DBZ timeline up to the beginning of DBSW, showing key differences in the two series. Know that some details on the DBSW version will not be listed so as to avoid spoilers.

5 MILLION BEFORE AGE -

DBZ Version - Majin Buu is created by Bibidi, destroying thousands of planets over the years and 4 of the Supreme Kaioshin are killed, the South and Grand being absorbed by Buu. The East Supreme Kaioshin kills Bibidi and seals Buu away on earth.

DBSW Version - Majin Buu is created by Bibidi, destroying thousands of planets of the years. The Supreme Kaioshin evacuate the species of the planets closest to Buu to far away planets out of Buu's path, including the first Saiyans who are sent to planet Plant. Bibidi, Buu, and the Supreme Kaioshin all die in the following battle, killed by a explosion caused by the Supreme Kaioshin gathering all their energy and setting it off in a giant blast (see Majin Vegeta VS Buu for example).

AGE 261 -

DBZ Version - King Yemma travels across Snake Way to receive training from King Kai. Namek experiences the great drought, the father of Kami sends his son into space to escape. All Namekians besides Guru perish. Kami's ship is forced to land on Earth.

DBSW Version - Same events as the DBZ timeline.

AGE 430-431-

DBZ Version - Master Roshi is born. Kami becomes the apprentice to the current guardian of Earth.

DBSW Version - Same events as the DBZ timeline.

AGE 461-

DBZ Version- Kami ascends to the throne as Guardian of The Earth, eventually splitting into two halves, forming Piccolo.

DBSW Version - Same events as DBZ timeline.

AGE 470-

DBZ Version - Kami creates the Dragon Balls.

DBSW Version - Same events as DBZ timeline.

AGE 720 to 730-

DBZ Version - The Saiyan-Tuffle war begins, ending when the Saiyans are exposed to the moon and enter Oozaru form, destroying the Tuffle race.

DBSW Version - A Saiyan named Vegeta becomes king of the Saiyan race after uniting all the Saiyan clans under one banner, the planet being named after him in his honor. The Saiyan race is invaded by the Kori-seijin (our term for Freeza's race), attempting to subjugate the Saiyan race into their slaves. The Kori-seijin are eventually defeated and the Saiyans seize control of their technology, beginning the rise of their eventual empire.

AGE 731 to 737-

DBZ Version - The Saiyans are annexed by the galactic overlord Frieza and start conquering planets to sell. King Vegeta marries his queen. Vegeta is born. Bulma is born. Frieza starts to feel misgivings toward the Saiyans. It begins a period of controlled chaos. Goku is born. Bardock (Goku's father) and his team conquer Planet Kanassa, ending the Kanassan war. Bardock is given the power of foresight by a Kanassan warrior named Toolo. Zarbon advises Frieza that it would be advantageous to eliminate the Saiyans while he has a chance, due to their ability to become stronger, enabling them to be an increasing threat if left alive. Frieza orders the execution of Bardock's squad during the Invasion of Planet Meat. Bardock's entire team, except for Bardock himself, is slaughtered by Dodoria and his men on Planet Meat. Bardock arrives and kills them all, with the exception of Dodoria, who nearly kills him. King Vegeta is murdered by Frieza as Zarbon and Dodoria watch. Frieza executes the Genocide of the Saiyans. Bardock attempts an assault on Frieza's ship but is unsuccessful. Frieza then uses a Supernova attack to destroy Planet Vegeta, where almost all the Saiyans are killed. Prince Vegeta and Nappa are informed of Planet Vegeta's destruction. Goku is placed in a Saiyan Space pod and launched to Earth just as Bardock is landing on Vegeta. Goku lands on Earth and is found by Grandpa Gohan. (Eventful years eh?)

DBSW Version - The Saiyans begin space travel, conquering and claiming nearby planets as their own, wiping out the native races and taking the planets resources for their own use. King Vegeta becomes self proclaimed Emperor of the Saiyans. The planet of the Kori-seijin is invaded by the Saiyan empire and destroyed in retaliation for their invasion of Planet Vegeta earlier. Emperor Vegeta is assassinated and usurped by the two Saiyans Dajjal and Jedah. Dajjal takes over as the new Emperor, renaming the planet after himself and bringing a massive reform to the empire, forming a new Saiyan hierarchy. The Saiyan empire continues to expand, becoming the most dominant force in the known universe.

And thats all for now without revealing too much and holy crap do my fingers hurt. I know there may be some errors so if any are spot PLEASE comment and let me know. Other than that, comment on what you thing, critique is appreciated. Now Ill return to bios, resuming with the bio of the Saiyan Emperor himself, Dajjal.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Kakarot88 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:40 am

WOW! This looks so cool! Can't wait to read! :clap: :thumbup:
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:41 am

Its still a long ways off. Still need to finalize all the plot points, make a script, find a artist. we arent even 15% done.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:15 am

Now, heres the bio of the Saiyan Emperor Dajjal.

DAJJAL -

Age- 56

Birthplace - Planet Dajjal (Planet Vegeta at time of birth), Saiyan Empire North Galaxy.

Family - Parents deceased, both executed. Jedah, his brother. Ness, his wife/mate.

Personality - Brutal, cruel, and power hungry. Fancies himself a god, believing to have the power over life and death of anything he sees fit. Will destroy anything that impedes him of his goals, even his own people without a second though and will annihilate a entire race on a whim if he deems them unsuitable to his cause.

Saiyan Ranking - Emperor

Obtained Forms - SSJ1-5

Attacks -

-Hell Mouth Blast

-Royal Decree

-Imperial Stomp

-Big Bang Barrage

History - Born under the Saiyan name Soren, Dajjal and his family were one of the many Saiyan clans fighting for control of the planet. His father soon became the future King Vegeta's right hand man after the clans were united. Dajjal's family lived in luxury, second only to King Vegeta in stature and rank, until Dajjal's father go too ambitious. He challenged King Vegeta for the throne, believing he could rule better and dueled the King in the throne room before his family. He was made short work of by King Vegeta, being killed in mere minutes. King Vegeta, outraged by this apparent betrayal, decreed that Dajjal and his family be executed as well so as to be made examples to all those who betray him. Dajjal and his little brother Jedah escaped, but their mother was struck down by King Vegeta as well. On that day Dajjal and Jedah swore they would return, kill King Vegeta, and fufill their father's goal.

The brothers escaped to a far off volcanic planet, living nearly constantly on the brink of death as their bodies slowly adjusted to the smothering gravity and smoldering heat. After a year of constant suffering and struggling, they mastered their environment, able to handle the climate with ease as well as becoming monstrously strong. After mastering their volcanic home, they soon left, destroying the planet as testament to their strength before traveling the galaxy, fighting and training as much as possible before reaching their prime. When they felt they were strong enough, they returned to Saiyan space, seeing that their father's killed had carved out a Empire, ripe for them to take. They challenged the then Emperor Vegeta and slaughtered him with ease. Dajjal ascended the throne as the new Emperor and began his reform of the Empire, no longer simply destroying a planet's race and taking their resources. Planets were now to be occupied, their population forced to work as slaves so as to produce their technology for the sole purpose of benefiting the Empire. Dajjal also brought on the reformed Saiyan hierarchy, bringing about the occupation system as well.

He allows nobody but his family to call him by his Saiyan name, having everyone refer to him as Dajjal. He and his brother discarded their Saiyan named after raiding a far off planet where the native species reffered to him as Dajjal, the race's term for devil. Dajjal came to like this name, and found it suiting to his role as Emperor. A god should have a godly name after all.

And thats Dajjal everyone. Next up is his brother Jedah, or the Saiyan Juggernaut Pomaton, its up to you to choose.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:55 pm

good so far.

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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:36 am

Decided to show some of the power scaling in DBSW by comparing my OC Kental to the heroes and villains in DBZ.

Kental base form = Mystic Gohan

Kental SSJ1 = SSJG Goku

Kental SSJ3 = 100% Bills (still debatable, subject to change)

Kental SSJ4 = Omega Shenron (yes I consider Omega stronger than Bills)

Kental SSJ5 - SSJ4 Gogeta

If you have any questions, by all means ask them and ill answer as best I can without giving away too much. I know this seems overkill to some but there are reasons which will be revealed in the future so please, bear with me.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Saiga » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:50 am

O.o That seems a little over the top. I would have tried to keep the characters weaker than the manga's main characters, honestly.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:54 am

Think of it this way. Remember when Goku and Gohan were in the time chamber training for Cell and Gohan was worried he was holding his dad back? Goku says if Gohan was a Super Saiyan he could push his dad even harder. Now when you have a whole planet of Saiyans capable of SSJ1-4, training and sparring with each other on a daily basis, is it really too much to assume that the higher ranked Saiyans could equal if not surpass GT levels of power?

Id think if two SSJ4's spent weeks sparring with each other and pushing each other to the limit, they would make some pretty significant gains dont you think?
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Saiga » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:01 am

KentalSSJ6 wrote:Think of it this way. Remember when Goku and Gohan were in the time chamber training for Cell and Gohan was worried he was holding his dad back? Goku says if Gohan was a Super Saiyan he could push his dad even harder. Now when you have a whole planet of Saiyans capable of SSJ1-4, training and sparring with each other on a daily basis, is it really too much to assume that the higher ranked Saiyans could equal if not surpass GT levels of power?

Id think if two SSJ4's spent weeks sparring with each other and pushing each other to the limit, they would make some pretty significant gains dont you think?
No, I don't. :P I don't think a single base non-fused base Saiyan ever surpassed Super Saiyan Goku from the Namek arc, so those kind of gains are still too much for me. Goku and Vegeta seemed to slow down their growth big time after the Cell arc, and I think most Saiyans would have their growth slowed even before that point. They have limits, and that doesn't mean they can't get stronger, but the stronger they get the harder it's going to be to progress. So I don't think sparring with others is going to make that kind of difference. They'd have to be thousands of times stronger than Boo arc base Saiyans to rival Ultimate Gohan, and I think that's a little much.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:06 am

Ok let me sum up. Saiyans in DBSW are by default, roughly 1.5 to twice as strong as Saiyans in Z. Again I know it sounds ridiculous but there are relatively believable reasons in the plot. I know it doesent clear much up but I promise I'm doing my best to make it somewhat credible. I'm just saying from the get go, DBSW in terms of power is a great deal more than that of DBZ.

Besides, DBNA had a SSJ5 Rigor stronger than a SSJ4 Gogeta and I never heard anyone think that was ridiculous :lol:
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Saiga » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:14 am

SS5 Rigor being stronger than SS4 Gogeta isn't as outlandish as the list you posted, although to be honest I don't really like that either. I didn't bring it up, though, because I'm rather used to seeing SS5's being made to be equal or greater than SS4 Gogeta.

I feel like fanworks blow the power scale way out of proportion too often, and the stronger one makes the Saiyans the more difficult it is to justify having enemies and allies equal to them.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:18 am

I may tune down the scaling abit after consulting the team but this goes without saying, The characters of DBZ, regardless of forms or power, will not be able to compete with the cast of DBSW. That being said, the Saiyans will not be a all omnipotent race in this series. Other races will still be able to compete with them such as Namekians, Hera-jin (Bojack's race) and some of the Kori-seijin (Freeza's race).
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by Saiga » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:22 am

KentalSSJ6 wrote:I may tune down the scaling abit after consulting the team but this goes without saying, The characters of DBZ, regardless of forms or power, will not be able to compete with the cast of DBSW. That being said, the Saiyans will not be a all omnipotent race in this series. Other races will still be able to compete with them such as Namekians, Hera-jin (Bojack's race) and some of the Kori-seijin (Freeza's race).
That really doesn't sit well with me. :| I'm not expecting you to change it, I'm just saying it's a pet peeve of mine when it comes to fan works.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:26 am

Hehe sorry, its likely due the small bit of fanboy in me. But again seeing as the Saiyans from Z dont exist in DBSW with the exception of King Vegeta, I guess it doesent really matter as Goku and the others wont be fighting the likes of Kental, Arevir, and the others. I guess I shouldent have included the heroes in the comparison :think: but yeah ill find a happy medium to character power. May seem abit high for some, but at least itll be consistent.
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:31 am

So, anyone have anything to say? As I've said before any and all feedback is appreciated and wanted. Suggestions, ideas, thoughts, criticism, anything would help me and my team.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:04 pm

Will a character have a pet? This might seem like a random question but once you answer you'll know why.

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KentalSSJ6
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:08 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Will a character have a pet? This might seem like a random question but once you answer you'll know why.
I actually gave that some thought. I was thinking of giving Kental a dog. Seeing Kental is essentially well...me in terms of personality, I thought giving him a dog would be interesting and could lead to some interesting developments in the plot.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Fan Series - Dragon Ball Saiyan Wars (DBSW)

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:22 pm

KentalSSJ6 wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Will a character have a pet? This might seem like a random question but once you answer you'll know why.
I actually gave that some thought. I was thinking of giving Kental a dog. Seeing Kental is essentially well...me in terms of personality, I thought giving him a dog would be interesting and could lead to some interesting developments in the plot.
Damn you took the word s out of my mouth. It was to help character development and the plot. Show some rare emotional side from Saiyans. Notice..I said rare.

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