Is filler as simple as just that: it's filler?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Paikuhan's existence also contradicts Goku not finding anyone strong in the afterlife.

Didn't Goku just say that he couldn't find someone to do Fusion with? Which could mean that there were guys stronger, weaker, skinnier, fatter, taller, or shorter than him. Perhaps he couldn't do Fusion with Paikuhan because they were from 2 very different races & didn't fit.

[KentalSSJ6]

Paikuhan's existence also contradicts Goku not finding anyone strong in the afterlife.

Didn't Goku just say that he couldn't find someone to do Fusion with? Which could mean that there were guys stronger, weaker, skinnier, fatter, taller, or shorter than him. Perhaps he couldn't do Fusion with Paikuhan because they were from 2 very different races & didn't fit.

Also wasent Pikkon equal to the level Goku used to fight him with? I'm not sure if he had access to SSJ2 and 3 when he first fought Pikkon But I'm sure hed be able to beat Pikkon with little trouble if he did have and used them.

[Vijay]

Maybe its just me, but I found the Buu Saga fillers to be enjoyable.

Goku/Vegeta tag-team fight against Chou Gohan/SS3 Gotenks/Piccolo inside of Buu was nicely choreographed.

And at the same time, royally screwed with the fan's concept of character strength. Goku and Vegeta able to handle Mystic Gohan and Gotenks in SSJ1? Yeah, if anything gets removed from Kai Buu, it better be that whole scene.

Aren't fillers meant to actually pad the proceedings?

As you've mentioned, its fan's conception. I bet Toriyama would laugh at fans Buu Arc Power Chain/Structures.

Its something to be enjoyed, rather than to over-think which exactly happened over the years. Anime Version: SSJ Goku > Mystic Gohan

Chances of Buu Arc Kai cutting-off that portion is highly questionable. TOEI might trim Worm thingy, but they're definetly aren't fools to completly remove that kinda high-budget episodes (considering it was Masunaga Keisugi's). Kinda similar to how TOEI kept Cell vs Ultra SSJ Trunks (episodedone by Maeda Minoru).

[Dolciano]

Some fillers can be seen as something to give characters more depth or to give some background (like some of the filler episodes during the Androids arc), which is why many enjoy them.

But, there are times when it contradicts what it shows later; or make things more confusing (Gohan growing his tail soon after the filler where Piccolo had removed it).

[dbzfan7]

To which I say Goku was pissed when Kuririn died even though he knew the Dragon Balls could bring him back. The Buu arc has Goku acting out of character a few times, or you can chalk it up to the cumulative effect of having so many friends die and come back, plus, I think Goku said that he didn't truely believe Gohan was dead.

I think some have pointed out that there's a bit of Stockholm Syndrom with Gohan's friendship with Piccolo. Piccolo didn't beat him out of masachism, he was training for an enemy that was far stronger than a man that they had a lot of trouble fighting.

Piccolo was Gohan's besty basically by default and again, I point to the SIX MONTHS they spent together. I don't think Gohan loved Piccolo the first six, but after a while realized Piccolo wasn't as evil as he had been lead to believe.

The Anime filler does lead to stuff. It shows how Gohan learned to use his powers instead of "next chapter he's in control". Piccolo did just work on Gohan physically, again, there's a world of difference between Gohan's training and actual battle, and Gohan did overcome his fear in the battle. Nothing was forgotten. It's like you're implying that after the filler Gohan absolutely could not have succumbed to his fear.

Boo Saga Goku is how Goku is. Toriyama wrote him that way and that's even before the eventual revelation. You can call it OOC if it were written by someone else, but Toriyama wrote him that way so that's what Goku grew to be.

Once again your arguing with my definition. It's a trivial argument.

Gohan learned to use his power because he was trained by Piccolo. We don't need crappy filler to tell us that. There is no point to courage building if it leads to nothing. It's FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more reasonable that just like Goku does in the Cell saga, Piccolo trained Gohan's body and not his mind.

[Saiga]

Paikuhan's existence also contradicts Goku not finding anyone strong in the afterlife.

Didn't Goku just say that he couldn't find someone to do Fusion with? Which could mean that there were guys stronger, weaker, skinnier, fatter, taller, or shorter than him. Perhaps he couldn't do Fusion with Paikuhan because they were from 2 very different races & didn't fit.

Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Goku is definitely talking about power, here. Nobody was up to his level.

[xJeffx]

Some parts of filler might become canon. For example Goku getting his driver's license during the 3 year training arc. Later on right before Cell destroys an army you can see Goku driving a car as a ssj.

[ABED]

Boo Saga Goku is how Goku is. Toriyama wrote him that way and that's even before the eventual revelation. You can call it OOC if it were written by someone else, but Toriyama wrote him that way so that's what Goku grew to be.

Once again your arguing with my definition. It's a trivial argument.

Gohan learned to use his power because he was trained by Piccolo. We don't need crappy filler to tell us that. There is no point to courage building if it leads to nothing. It's FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more reasonable that just like Goku does in the Cell saga, Piccolo trained Gohan's body and not his mind.

Toriyama also wrote Goku as someone who was upset by death, so he's inconsistent, and I don't recall him not being upset by Gohan's death. I remember him believing Gohan was alive.

First, it wasn't crappy filler. Those were good episodes. It does lead to something, Gohan shows courage during that fight. You act like he was scared the ENTIRE time.

There's an adage in writing, "show, don't tell", in the case of Gohan learning to use his powers and growing up, it can be very effective to show him learning. It also helped to build sympathy for a new character.

[dbzfan7]

Boo Saga Goku is how Goku is. Toriyama wrote him that way and that's even before the eventual revelation. You can call it OOC if it were written by someone else, but Toriyama wrote him that way so that's what Goku grew to be.

Once again your arguing with my definition. It's a trivial argument.

Gohan learned to use his power because he was trained by Piccolo. We don't need crappy filler to tell us that. There is no point to courage building if it leads to nothing. It's FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more reasonable that just like Goku does in the Cell saga, Piccolo trained Gohan's body and not his mind.

Toriyama also wrote Goku as someone who was upset by death, so he's inconsistent, and I don't recall him not being upset by Gohan's death. I remember him believing Gohan was alive.

First, it wasn't crappy filler. Those were good episodes. It does lead to something, Gohan shows courage during that fight. You act like he was scared the ENTIRE time.

There's an adage in writing, "show, don't tell", in the case of Gohan learning to use his powers and growing up, it can be very effective to show him learning. It also helped to build sympathy for a new character.

Krillin died twice and Goku thought he was dead forever. Gohan can be brought back and Goku doesn't look that sad when Gohan was supposedly dead. Goku was written that way and that's how he is. This isn't a superman comic where a different continuity Superman can be dismissed.

Yes it was crappy pointless filler. Gohan pusses out and gets scared of a Saibaman who is weaker than he is. Piccolo had to save him. t's FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more reasonable that just like Goku does in the Cell saga, Piccolo trained Gohan's body and not his mind. There is also the saying that "less is more" we don't need to see what Gohan and Piccolo did. All we need to know is he went through harsh training. Just like how Toriyama covered pretty much all training moments.

[KentalSSJ6]

I think it would be cool for once to see Goku get really pissed at someone hurt Gohan. I mean what would you do if you found out someone broke your son's neck or flat out killed him? Id love to see Goku just go berserk on someone like Recoome or see him go nuts against Freeza if he killed Gohan instead.

[dbzfan7]

I think it would be cool for once to see Goku get really pissed at someone hurt Gohan. I mean what would you do if you found out someone broke your son's neck or flat out killed him? Id love to see Goku just go berserk on someone like Recoome or see him go nuts against Freeza if he killed Gohan instead.

I'm waiting for Piccolo and Gohan to go to child services so Piccolo can be his new dad.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Paikuhan's existence also contradicts Goku not finding anyone strong in the afterlife.

Didn't Goku just say that he couldn't find someone to do Fusion with? Which could mean that there were guys stronger, weaker, skinnier, fatter, taller, or shorter than him. Perhaps he couldn't do Fusion with Paikuhan because they were from 2 very different races & didn't fit.

Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Goku is definitely talking about power, here. Nobody was up to his level.

Oh, OK then.

[ABED]

Krillin died twice and Goku thought he was dead forever. Gohan can be brought back and Goku doesn't look that sad when Gohan was supposedly dead. Goku was written that way and that's how he is. This isn't a superman comic where a different continuity Superman can be dismissed.

Yes it was crappy pointless filler. Gohan pusses out and gets scared of a Saibaman who is weaker than he is. Piccolo had to save him. t's FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more reasonable that just like Goku does in the Cell saga, Piccolo trained Gohan's body and not his mind. There is also the saying that "less is more" we don't need to see what Gohan and Piccolo did. All we need to know is he went through harsh training. Just like how Toriyama covered pretty much all training moments.

The first time Kuririn died, Goku knew he could be brought back and was still pissed off, secondly, unless I'm wrong, I do recall Goku believing Gohan to be alive. Yes, Goku was written that way but he was also written another way previously. Either Toriyama is inconsistent or there has been a change in Goku.

Stop saying "pusses out". He's a child! It's his first real fight and somehow he's supposed to be cool in the face of danger? Gohan is a newby and not great at reading battle powers, and even though he was stronger than the Saibaimen, he could still have been killed. Let's see how brave you'd be as a five year old in the face of almost certain death.

No, Toriyama just scratched the surface of Gohan's training. Less is less in this case. I don't blame him, it's a weekly comic, so we got the bullet points for people's training, but out of an entire year, that's hardly all the training moments. Gohan is a new character and the filler fleshes him out and develops him, allowing the audience to care more for him than just because he's a child, and the offspring of the main character.

You keep saying it's "faaaaar more reasonable" that Piccolo just trained Gohan's body. Why? There's nothing in even the quality filler that shows otherwise.

[TheGmGoken]

Let's see how brave you'd be as a five year old in the face of almost certain death.

I used to play in the streets . Good times

[dbzfan7]

The first time Kuririn died, Goku knew he could be brought back and was still pissed off, secondly, unless I'm wrong, I do recall Goku believing Gohan to be alive. Yes, Goku was written that way but he was also written another way previously. Either Toriyama is inconsistent or there has been a change in Goku.

Stop saying "pusses out". He's a child! It's his first real fight and somehow he's supposed to be cool in the face of danger? Gohan is a newby and not great at reading battle powers, and even though he was stronger than the Saibaimen, he could still have been killed. Let's see how brave you'd be as a five year old in the face of almost certain death.

No, Toriyama just scratched the surface of Gohan's training. Less is less in this case. I don't blame him, it's a weekly comic, so we got the bullet points for people's training, but out of an entire year, that's hardly all the training moments. Gohan is a new character and the filler fleshes him out and develops him, allowing the audience to care more for him than just because he's a child, and the offspring of the main character.

You keep saying it's "faaaaar more reasonable" that Piccolo just trained Gohan's body. Why? There's nothing in even the quality filler that shows otherwise.

Goku also was different as had went on a vendetta against Tambourine. He was a different person when fighting Freeza as Freeza was way worse than Tambourine, and killed Krillin, and yet he was letting him go. Yes you are wrong. Goku didn't believe Gohan was alive, that was Videl. Goku does this again in Battle of Gods where he watches everyone get their asses kicked. Birus could have killed them as they pissed him off and that could have been a problem. It's not OOC.

Exactly. He pusses out because Piccolo didn't take the time to train his mindset. A body is only as good as the mind.

Less is not less in this case. We didn't need any of that shitty filler at all just to build up Gohan for a failure. The filler didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about Gohan. So it developed nothing.

It's faaaaaaaaaar more reasonable that Piccolo just trained Gohan's body as IT"S EXACTLY WHAT GOKU DID IN THE CELL SAGA. Both of them over looked Gohan's feelings and just trained his body. Piccolo doesn't care for Gohan's feeling at the time so it made sense he over looked his scaredy cat nature.

Dude your arguing opinion with me. In my opinion the filler sucked and was pointless, in yours it wasn't. You can't win an opinion argument. You have better luck beating your own shadow.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku didn't believe Gohan was alive, that was Videl. Goku does this again in Battle of Gods where he watches everyone get their asses kicked. Birus could have killed them as they pissed him off and that could have been a problem. It's not OOC.

Here how I see it. Goku as he see things he just stop caring.

Around the Boo arc he have seen it all. His best friend dying, himself dying, world's blowing up, and even kids going SSJ.

[ABED]

Pusses out? Again, he's FIVE!

It did develop Gohan, it told us how he got to that point. Do we need to know? No, it just helps fill in gaps. It's like Batman Year One. We don't need to know how Gordon and Batman met or how Gordon rose up the ladder, it's just a nice to see Bruce and Gordon grow into their roles. It's not shitty filler. It's good filler. They are stories that are emotional, character driven and well told. You say it's unneccessary, I say it's nice to have. Gohan goes from A to Z, but what about the steps in between? Less is more only goes so far. It's okay to say Gohan gets some training, but Piccolo's sudden personality change and Gohan's development and relationship with him means so much more when you see what both went through. Again, show don't tell.

It's faaaaaaaaaar more reasonable that Piccolo just trained Gohan's body as IT"S EXACTLY WHAT GOKU DID IN THE CELL SAGA. Both of them over looked Gohan's feelings and just trained his body. Piccolo doesn't care for Gohan's feeling at the time so it made sense he over looked his scaredy cat nature.

I know what happened, I'm say that you don't need to tell me that. It's not contradicted by anything.

It's not OOC.

It is. It goes against Goku to not react to the death of someone he cares for. The things you told me were just concretes and doesn't change the fundamentals, in this case, Goku going against his nature - to care for people he loves. Anyway, you were right it was Videl, but Goku isn't non-chalant about it. I looked up the chapters and Goku is reserved, and he doesn't fly off the handle, but he shows concern. I think he's just smarter about how he reacts. I does him no good to lose his head and go after Buu.

You can't win an opinion argument. You have better luck beating your own shadow.

Not at issue, but it's interesting to discuss regardless.

[KentalSSJ6]

Let's see how brave you'd be as a five year old in the face of almost certain death.

I used to play in the streets . Good times

Does biting a python after it bit you in the face at the age of 8 count?

[dbzfan7]

Pusses out? Again, he's FIVE!

It did develop Gohan, it told us how he got to that point. Do we need to know? No, it just helps fill in gaps. It's like Batman Year One. We don't need to know how Gordon and Batman met or how Gordon rose up the ladder, it's just a nice to see Bruce and Gordon grow into their roles. It's not shitty filler. It's good filler. They are stories that are emotional, character driven and well told. You say it's unneccessary, I say it's nice to have. Gohan goes from A to Z, but what about the steps in between? Less is more only goes so far. It's okay to say Gohan gets some training, but Piccolo's sudden personality change and Gohan's development and relationship with him means so much more when you see what both went through. Again, show don't tell.

It's faaaaaaaaaar more reasonable that Piccolo just trained Gohan's body as IT"S EXACTLY WHAT GOKU DID IN THE CELL SAGA. Both of them over looked Gohan's feelings and just trained his body. Piccolo doesn't care for Gohan's feeling at the time so it made sense he over looked his scaredy cat nature.

I know what happened, I'm say that you don't need to tell me that. It's not contradicted by anything.

It's not OOC.

It is. It goes against Goku to not react to the death of someone he cares for. The things you told me were just concretes and doesn't change the fundamentals, in this case, Goku going against his nature - to care for people he loves. Anyway, you were right it was Videl, but Goku isn't non-chalant about it. I looked up the chapters and Goku is reserved, and he doesn't fly off the handle, but he shows concern. I think he's just smarter about how he reacts. I does him no good to lose his head and go after Buu.

You can't win an opinion argument. You have better luck beating your own shadow.

Not at issue, but it's interesting to discuss regardless.

Gohan's adventures told me nothing I already did not know about him. They were a bunch of pointless scenes that Gohan will never ever refer to again because they are meaningless. No point in building up courage if it leads to absolutely nothing. Gohan will forget about the Robot and the Orphans as they affected nothing. He will also forget Lime and his time with those people as they meant nothing. You would think spending time with all those people would teach him the value of Earth and why he needs to be brave, you would think he would recollect his meetings and have the friendships he made drive him to be brave for their sake, but nope, he pusses out.

It's also why we don't need the pointless adventures that don't affect Gohan at all as Gohan will never recollect them ever again.

I guess you just don't like Goku's natural character progression and you just hate the new Goku as he once again puts everyone at risk to help himself in a fight. Toriyama kept him like this FOR A REASON. Toriyama re-read the manga and still kept him like this. So no it's in character if Toriyama still thinks it is.

Word of God>>>>>>Some fan who doesn't like what Goku has become

[TheGmGoken]

It's not shitty filler. It's good filler.

Opinion. I thought it was good as well. But some people do have a legit reason for hating it. That I can understand

You would think spending time with all those people would teach him the value of Earth and why he needs to be brave,

Reminds me of Gohan when he was refusing to fight Cell. And that was when he was expanded on being brave. Such as fighting for Piccolo("Gohan what would Picoolo want you to do"). That alone was better development for Gohan than the filler did IMHO.

I guess you just don't like Goku's natural character progression and you just hate the new Goku as he once again puts everyone at risk to help himself in a fight. Toriyama kept him like this FOR A REASON. Toriyama re-read the manga and still kept him like this. So no it's in character if Toriyama still thinks it is.

I'll just tell you what I told you in PM. Basically in a nutshell. Goku from Boo arc onwards have seen it all. He seen friends die, planets blowing up, DEATH itself, Gods, Aliens, Apes, SSJ Kids, and even the experience of losing his eyebrows. All Goku want to do now is what he was born to do. FIGHT. He want someone stronger than himself so he can have a challenge. If someone is stronger then he'll find a way to beat that guy(Such as letting Birsu kick ass).

Does biting a python after it bit you in the face at the age of 8 count?

Yup

Pusses out? Again, he's FIVE!

So? It's not cause he was 5. It's how he was raised. Had Old Man Gohan raised Goku to be a scholar and not a fighter then Goku would be scarred to fight as well.