Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[Adamant]

Why do dubbing companies necessarily have to stick to the original script as closely as possible? Unless stated otherwise, they can do whatever they want with the show, and there's nothing in the definition of dubbing that says they have to either. Even if there were, FUNimation never referred to their product as a "dub"; it was always a "reversioning". It goes without saying that "translation" also never appeared on any official product.

But that was the entire point behind Penguntruth's argument about being a Dragonball fan. If you can excuse all the shit in the Funi "dub" by saying "it's not a dub, it's a reversioning", you're also saying what they made was something-or-other that was based on Dragonball, rather than in actual dub of Dragonball... but if that's what you like, you're not liking Dragonball, you're liking whatever you want to call the thing Funi made.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Taku128]

I think you can definitely make the argument that being a fan of the dub is a different thing than being a fan of the original Japanese version, but labeling one as the "true" fan is stupid. If you ask me only people who like the manga are "true" fans, and all you anime watchers are just watching a bastardization of Dragon Ball. I'd rather just say you're a fan of the anime though, because it's not unnecessarily insulting.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

But that was the entire point behind Penguntruth's argument about being a Dragonball fan. If you can excuse all the shit in the Funi "dub" by saying "it's not a dub, it's a reversioning", you're also saying what they made was something-or-other that was based on Dragonball, rather than in actual dub of Dragonball... but if that's what you like, you're not liking Dragonball, you're liking whatever you want to call the thing Funi made.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I do call it a dub, because there's nothing in the definition of dub that says it has to be accurate. I pointed out the fact that FUNi called their product a "reversioning" to show that they wanted to make it absolutely clear that they were producing their own version or adaptation of the original anime, rather than just the show they got from Japan with English voices on it. What FUNi made was an adaptation of what Toei made, which was an adaptation of the original source. They're both adaptations. They have differences, but they're still recognizably Dragon Ball. As long as it's not a different show altogether with different characters, it's still Dragon Ball.

[TheGmGoken]

But that was the entire point behind Penguntruth's argument about being a Dragonball fan. If you can excuse all the shit in the Funi "dub" by saying "it's not a dub, it's a reversioning", you're also saying what they made was something-or-other that was based on Dragonball, rather than in actual dub of Dragonball... but if that's what you like, you're not liking Dragonball, you're liking whatever you want to call the thing Funi made.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I do call it a dub, because there's nothing in the definition of dub that says it has to be accurate. I pointed out the fact that FUNi called their product a "reversioning" to show that they wanted to make it absolutely clear that they were producing their own version or adaptation of the original anime, rather than just the show they got from Japan with English voices on it. What FUNi made was an adaptation of what Toei made, which was an adaptation of the original source. They're both adaptations. They have differences, but they're still recognizably Dragon Ball.

Not saying you're wrong PD(In fact I think you're right). You're right about no dub definition having accurate stuff. Here it is.

1. english dub
This entry is regarding english dubbed ANIME.

(n)/(v). A type of Japanese anime that has its original Japanese voices removed and replaced by English voiceovers by English voice actors. This is different from subbed anime, which has english subtitles while still preserving the unchanged and more natural Japanese voices of the original anime.

In some cases, english dubs may change or modify the feelings, tones and moods of original anime, making it seem like some kind of cartoon targeted at kids or hopelessly childish adults. Sometimes some scenes are also censored or cut from the anime, which may be deemed crude and unacceptable to be watched by the English-speaking community, oddly enough (eg. Pokemon - slap). - Made by fan

The primary reason why anime purists dislike english dubs may be due to the unnecessarily artificial high-pitched voices used in English dubs, or the lack of the original mood/meaning that was once present in the anime, which English dubs occasionally manage to transform and convert into something completely different and warped from the original. Or maybe due to the odd mouth movements that don't match the English voices and make characters look like mental retards. - Made by a "hardcore" anime fan(Would't had said this had it been DBZ)

In some english dubs, the anime openings / endings are also removed and instead replaced with horrendous custom-made sequences with blatant and crude shouting (eg Naruto). ...

english dub
Web definitions
(English Dubbed) A film originally recorded in another language may be dubbed into English, i.e., English-speaking actors perform the lines of the film in place of the original dialogue. Sometimes a film may be shot in English but without sound then dubbed later in a studio.

[dprez]

Dragon Ball is too great to limit to one "pure" fan base. I really do agree with penguintruth though. Dragon Ball just isn't Dragon Ball the way FUNi presents it. We all know the Japanese version is the true Dragon Ball, but I do think it's a little cynacil to say someone isn't a fan if they enjoy a less true version. It's Dragon Ball Z on Toonami people. You can't expect people who don't really care to admire the real deal. I even know people who understand that it's better in Japanese, but would rather watch the dub out of pure convenience.

Dragon Ball is awesome, even with a shitty dub. Orange brick sales prove it.

[penguintruth]

Well I disagree with the wording of retard the definition foots like a boot. A chewy boot. Most of the time it doesn't even faze me. I just be like "WTF is a true fan". It makes you seem like an idiot to be honest.

Tell me, what are you a fan of if not the show as originally scripted? How can you be said to be a fan of the show if the show you love is not the show that was originally created? Or even very close? I know it keeps to the same basic plot, but there are huge gulfs of difference between the show as Toei made it and the English dub version as Funimation made it, that strip a lot, if not most of its intent almost to the core.

Call yourself whatever you want, but to me, a fan of the dub is a fan of something that looks a lot like DBZ, but isn't quite. A "hardcore"... no, not even hardcore, even just a regular fan enjoys the show for what it is.

[TheGmGoken]

Well I disagree with the wording of retard the definition foots like a boot. A chewy boot. Most of the time it doesn't even faze me. I just be like "WTF is a true fan". It makes you seem like an idiot to be honest.

Tell me, what are you a fan of if not the show as originally scripted? How can you be said to be a fan of the show if the show you love is not the show that was originally created?

Because not everyone have the ability to watch the JPN audio or read the manga. So they only have the ENG dub to remember or watch. So I guess they're not "True" or "Real" fans because they don't know. Now they might not be hardcore fans but they're still fans regardless. Hell they're "True" fans as well because they like it. Unless they are fake people. Maybe people just want to hear the audio in their OWN language and not rad subs like it's a book. Or some people don't want to read so they don't read the manga.

So they are not "Real", "True", or "good" fans because they watching a bad version. Sir you're worst than most youtube fans if that's your way of thinking.

[penguintruth]

The characters they're enjoying aren't the characters they think they are. The scenes they're enjoying aren't the scenes they think they are. They are, in effect, fans of something different than DBZ.

I don't see how I'm being cruel in pointing out this very basic and reasonable assessment.

[TheGmGoken]

The characters they're enjoying aren't the characters they think they are. The scenes they're enjoying aren't the scenes they think they are. They are, in effect, fans of something different than DBZ.

You see. I re-call the opening of Funimation saying

"DRAGON DRAGON ROCK THE DRAGON! DRAGONBALL Z! AHHH!"

So what they're watching isn't dbz? What is it? A dvd that features a story, a plot, music, voice acting, and the letters Dragonball Z on it. Despite the inaccuracy not ALL the characters were different in persona. The scenes they like are not what they are? So I guess the english dub uses a different animation. Never knew that.

[jjgp1112]

To make an assertion that dub fans somehow aren't fans of Dragon Ball would imply that the dub is anywhere near inaccurate enough that the story and characters are unrecognizable from their "pure" incarnations. Which it's not.

Dragon Ball is such a surface level show that unless it's been changed to 4Kids-levels, it's really hard to declare that someone's not a fan if they only watch the dub because it deviates in certain aspects. The characters are the same, the storyline is exactly the same (although admittedly the Dr. Gero stuff is a glaring inconsistency, especially since OG Dragon Ball corrected), the progression is the same, the same stuff happens, the important details are the same...I really don't get what you're trying to accomplish by constantly shoving this argument down our throats every time any discussion about the dub comes up.

[bkev]

Please cut the "true fan" crap. You're carefully choosing your words to avoid that phrase but that seriously reeks of the attitude.

[TheGmGoken]

Please cut the "true fan" crap. You're carefully choosing your words to avoid that phrase but that seriously reeks of the attitude.

Who is that directed to? Truth or me? Cause I hate that "True fan term". Since that makes them fake fans which sounds dumb as hell.

[penguintruth]

Sure. And Samurai Pizza Cats fans are Kyatto Ninden Teyandee fans and Robotech fans are Super Dimensional Fortress Macross fans.

I'll just be wearing this copy of T. H. White's The Once and Future King on my head as a hat. I'm a huge fan of it because it's such a great hat.

[KentalSSJ6]

Sure. And Samurai Pizza Cats fans are Kyatto Ninden Teyandee fans and Robotech fans are Super Dimensional Fortress Macross fans.

When your show is called Samurai Pizza Cats...I dont think any level of dubbing is gonna save your show.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Please cut the "true fan" crap. You're carefully choosing your words to avoid that phrase but that seriously reeks of the attitude.

It's more to do with there being one true version, and from there it follows that you're only a true fan if you watch the true version.

[Blade]

For a lot of folks, DBZ wasn't / isn't / will never be "anime" to them. It's a show they watched when they got home from school.

Perhaps it was a gateway drug to the larger world of anime, but to them it will never be a part of that, and so it is viewed as its own entity in and of itself as a show that existed as that exact version from their memory and anything else -- accurate dub or original version of the show or otherwise -- contradicts that memory too much to be accepted.

I must admit, this definitely resonates strongly with something I've experienced a couple times.

For example: I recall a conversation with an (ex) girlfriend of mine when she first discovered our mutual like of anime, and in me replying 'Dragonball' to 'what is your favourite?' she replied with 'No offense, but that's a kids show I used to watch with my sister when I got home from school".

And no, she's not my 'ex' because she didn't like Dragonball! It's because after two and a half years of being together, she decided to sleep with someone else rather than work things out when I was forced to move away because of work. Bitch.

[90sDBZ]

Well as far as I'm concerned if someone makes the effort to watch every episode of a show and/or collect it on DVD then they are a true fan regardless of version. They wouldn't do that if they weren't a fan. If you want to get technical about it then I'd call myself a true fan of the Funi dubs of DB/Z/GT/Kai and simply a casual fan of the Japanese version. Even if one doesn't want to acknowledge the dub as Dragonball that's still what it's called and that's what I'm a fan of. Just saiyan.

[Brodes]

If being a 'true fan' (which that phrase needs to be stopped forever) or even just a fan means an attitude like I've seen from people in this thread I'd rather not be a fan.

It doesn't matter which version of this cartoon people are watching, if they are a fan of it, they're a fan. Regardless of how dismissive you are just because you have a sad superiority complex about certain versions or a heavy dislike of them.

[Saago]

This "it's the same show! We're all fans of the same product!" mentality is kind of strange, considering that most dub fans can't stand the Japanese version, and most fans of the Japanese version can't stand the dub. Which means an average fan of the dub and an average fan of the original version can't watch the show together, because one of them will always dislike it. That's an interesting definition of "liking the same show", to say the least.

[VegettoEX]

This "it's the same show! We're all fans of the same product!" mentality is kind of strange, considering that most dub fans can't stand the Japanese version, and most fans of the Japanese version can't stand the dub. Which means an average fan of the dub and an average fan of the original version can't watch the show together, because one of them will always dislike it. That's an interesting definition of "liking the same show", to say the least.

I think this is rather astute, and is so without resorting to "true fan" nonsense.

It goes to what penguintruth is getting at without pulling in the eyeroll-inducing superiority complex nonsense that hurts the argument more than you can possibly imagine. As a wise cyclops lady once said, "Remember when I told you about always ending your stories a sentence earlier?" The argument is there, valid, reasonable, and is incredibly persuasive, and then gets completely demolished by a complete lack of tact and desire for an actual conversation. Knock off your tired posturing and present your argument like the above.