Are Birusu And SSJG Goku Stronger than SSJ2/SSJ3 Vegetto?

[Mewzard]

It was an extreme example, yeah (and one thought up at the last minute), but the point stands they could do Vegetto (or Gogeta as the case may be) if they felt compelled to, out of character or not.

Bubsy was their greatest foe to date, and warranted a new powerup. With foes continuing to get stronger, Vegetto (at that level) can't be the top of the line forever.

[TheGmGoken]

It was an extreme example, yeah (and one thought up at the last minute), but the point stands they could do Vegetto (or Gogeta as the case may be) if they felt compelled to, out of character or not.

Bubsy was their greatest foe to date, and warranted a new powerup. With foes continuing to get stronger, Vegetto (at that level) can't be the top of the line forever.

I'm not saying Birsu < Vegetto. I'm saying that plot device you suggested was horrible. Goku pretty much only fuses if the character he is fighter is fused or eaten someone(See Goku reason not to fuse with Pure Boo) also just liek Vegeta he has Saiyan pride. They can NEVER do Vegetto again.

[Mewzard]

Well, they'll do whatever the writer says they'll do, and DBZ movies are notorious for not exactly getting some characters right (Movie Goku anyone? lol), but if Toriyama does it?...definitely. He'll forget about Vegetto beyond the design and think he made a new character (I'm joking...I hope).

But yeah, it could happen, you literally can't say never in this situation, especially with a series like this that can and most likely will get more movies in the future.

Just remember, Shonen is where horrible plot devices go to die. Just because it hasn't hit DB yet doesn't mean some writer won't try down the line in a movie or original comic.

[TheGmGoken]

Well, they'll do whatever the writer says they'll do, and DBZ movies are notorious for not exactly getting some characters right (Movie Goku anyone? lol), but if Toriyama does it?...definitely. He'll forget about Vegetto beyond the design and think he made a new character (I'm joking...I hope).

'

Of course they did what the writers do. But BoG was made by Toriyama who just re read the manga fyi. I doubt he would do something completely different from his past work. Despite him forgetting DBZ. He re read the manga for this movie. Toriyama most likely forgot Vegetto's name but not the character as he once again went back to read the manga.

But yeah, it could happen, you literally can't say never in this situation, especially with a series like this that can and most likely will get more movies in the future.

Trust me. It won't. DBZ will never use a plot device like that. It's way to shallow and worst than that whole Namek Arc Plot devices.

Just remember, Shonen is where horrible plot devices go to die. Just because it hasn't hit DB yet doesn't mean some writer won't try down the line in a movie or original comic.

It ALREADY hit Dragonball. Multiple of times. And not even Shonen snoops that low.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The History of Z is the past, and BoG wasn't even made at that point. If you believe that it's invalid, stick with your opinion, and I'll stick with mine.

Whatever the history of Z is, Beerus (and with him, Whis as well) is in it (because he's "the strongest in it") and there's no counter-argument to that.

And why should I dismiss it?

Because of it being contradictory.

What we learn in that statement is exactly the same thing we learn in the movie as well. In the movie, while not knowing anything about Whis, Beers is stated to be the strongest in the universe, and that Goku & co. shouldn't ever make him angry because they wouldn't stand a chance against him no matter what they try. So, since Goku & co. are hopeless no matter what, and Beers is the strongest in the universe, Beers > Vegetto. (Kaioshin & Rou Kaioshin are wearing the Potara in the movie, and it's extremely easy for Goku to go & pick them, and seeing how Vegeta cared about his family in BoG, he would definitely merge with Goku to protect them. But Beers was so strong, that Vegetto isn't an option.) Even God Goku is shocked with his power, possibly implying that even he is stronger than Super Vegetto. Then, we learn that Whis is even stronger than Beers, and that he is the truly strongest in the universe.

We learn the same thing in the "stronger in history of Z" statement:
We learn that Whis is a mysterious guy, and we learn that Beers is the strongest in the history of Z. So, Whis = ???, and Beers > Super Vegetto. Then in the movie, after Whis' power is revealed, we actually learn that Whis is stronger than Beers. So, Whis > Beers > Super Vegetto.

And there is also the Shonen rule that the new villain > everything so far, which is exactly what the movie states.

And it doesn't IMO.

Facts > opinions.

Except that what you are saying is not a fact. It's your opinion to interpret the statement the way you do, and mine opinion to interpret it the way I do. You believe that it's contradictory. I disagree.

I disagree. I believe that anime Vegetto got too confident and believed that he didn't need Super Saiyan. I don't believe though that base Vegetto is stronger than Gohan Boo, so I just count it as Toei bullshit.

So you disagree that manga Vegetto and anime Vegetto are different but point out that anime Vegetto did something that manga Vegetto didn't do, making them different? You're contradicting yourself.

I just take it as an inconsistency, like the Mutaito < Goku < Mutaito in DB filler, and the Mr. Popo > SS Goten & Trunks in DBZ filler, and the base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku or Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku in GT

[hleV]

↑ While I perfectly understand what you're saying, the statement is not "Beerus is stronger than anyone you've seen in the series", it's "Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z", which in turn is invalid because if he's in the history of Z, then so is Whis, and Whis is stronger than Beerus, no matter whether it's revealed to us yet or not. It's not right to call Beerus the strongest when Whis is (secretly) stronger. It's an invalid statement and you're trying to justify it for unknown reasons.

[TheGmGoken]

↑ While I perfectly understand what you're saying, the statement is not "Beerus is stronger than anyone you've seen in the series", it's "Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z", which in turn is invalid because if he's in the history of Z, then so is Whis, and Whis is stronger than Beerus, no matter whether it's revealed to us yet or not. It's not right to call Beerus the strongest when Whis is (secretly) stronger. It's an invalid statement and you're trying to justify it for unknown reasons.

So you're mad that they did NOT say Whis was the strongest. You're mad cause they wanted that as a surprise. Imagine how much less hype Birsu would have gotten had we knew the whole time Whis was stronger. Imagine if the whole time we knew there was a SSJ2 and a SSJ3. What would have made SSJ 1 so special when Goku got it.

It's not like they lied. They just did not reveal everything yet. They don't want to spoil to much. So the statement is not invalid.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Have you ever heard of something called a retcon? Beers was stated to be the strongest, and hey, lets say this was invalidated by Whis being stronger than him. Guess what he still have? The people that stated this prior still believe Beers is stronger than everyone, Whis aside . Seriously, if you went up and asked them how strong Beers is, they would still tell you, stronger than everyone in Z. We get it hleV, you hate Battle of Gods, but that doesn't give you the right to disregard any statement made simply because you don't like it. Beers IS stronger than Super Vegetto, get over it .

[hleV]

The people that stated this prior still believe Beers is stronger than everyone, Whis aside . Seriously, if you went up and asked them how strong Beers is, they would still tell you, stronger than everyone in Z.

Oh, so I should just go with the crowd, even if they're all wrong.

We get it hleV, you hate Battle of Gods, but that doesn't give you the right to disregard any statement made simply because you don't like it. Beers IS stronger than Super Vegetto, get over it .

I get it, you love BOG so much that you can't see its flaws and try to justify it any way possible. There's no evidence that Beerus is stronger than Vegetto, get over it.

[TheGmGoken]

The people that stated this prior still believe Beers is stronger than everyone, Whis aside . Seriously, if you went up and asked them how strong Beers is, they would still tell you, stronger than everyone in Z.

Oh, so I should just go with the crowd, even if they're all wrong.

We get it hleV, you hate Battle of Gods, but that doesn't give you the right to disregard any statement made simply because you don't like it. Beers IS stronger than Super Vegetto, get over it .

I get it, you love BOG so much that you can't see its flaws and try to justify it any way possible. There's no evidence that Beerus is stronger than Vegetto, get over it.

First quote: HOW ARE THEY WRONG? Whis is a mystery character and barely did anything in the movie. Imagine if they said Whis was stronger from the start. That would make Birsu less cool to people who liked him. They didn't make a false statement. They just did not spoil anything and in a way did not tell the WHOLE story just yet.

Second quote: I hate BoG. Everyone here knows it(I shove it down people throats that I hate it. Just ask Kental). But seriously there is a good amount of evidence that Birsu > Vegetto. At least in Base or SSJ form(Going by IF Vegetto has SSj2 and SSj3). Birsu > everyone but Whis. It's not that hard. DB as a whole was all about the statement. "There is always someone stronger"

[hleV]

"Hey guys, Beerus is definitely the strongest, ignore that guy in the center who's even stronger!"

[TheGmGoken]

Spoiler:

"Hey guys, Beerus is definitely the strongest, ignore that guy in the center who's even stronger!"

So can say the same thing about Super Saiyans or Villains.

"Hey guys! SSj is the ultimate form nothing can surpass it" ~ SSJ get ass kicked by androids the next arc.

"The Great Demon King Piccolo!" ~ Dabura is also a demon king

"Freeza is the strongest in the universe" ~ Majin Boo turns out to be the strongest in the universe. For quite some time now

"Hey Oob can possibly beat Goku!" ~ Goku keeps SSG power

Like seriously. Now you're just nitpicking. Did you want the ENTIRE movie to be spoiled(Before real spoilers came out) before you saw it! The movie's main villain(Not really a villain) is Birsu! Birsu is getting all these hype in trailers and promos. And guess what fans! Whis is stronger. *fans gets excited for WHis not Birsu*. *Whis does NOTHING in the movie*. *Fans go sad*.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh no, I can certainly see BoG's flaws. I just don't find enough of them to dislike the movie. Also, did you ever consider the fact that you're wrong hleV? Everyone is telling you that, yet you ignore it because you're too stubborn to admit it.

[hleV]

Now you're just nitpicking. Did you want the ENTIRE movie to be spoiled(Before real spoilers came out) before you saw it!

No, wording the statement better (like "Beerus is stronger than anyone in the Z series") so it wouldn't outright contradict Whis would've been enough.

Oh no, I can certainly see BoG's flaws. I just don't find enough of them to dislike the movie. Also, did you ever consider the fact that you're wrong hleV? Everyone is telling you that, yet you ignore it because you're too stubborn to admit it.

You're telling my I'm wrong but fail to explain why. I've read everything you and others wrote so far and nobody manages to counter the fact that Beerus is in the history of Z and is stated to be the strongest there which is not true.

[TheGmGoken]

No, wording the statement better (like "Beerus is stronger than anyone in the Z series") so it wouldn't outright contradict Whis would've been enough.

Funny(Not to be rude) but that wording should still be an issue in your logic. Whis is apart of Z you know. Dragonball Z Battle of Gods. Saying Birsu is the strongest in the history of Z is not contradicting Whis. Since Whis was suppose to be a mystery. Had Whis been told he was the strongest it would have taken the spotlight from Birsu

[hleV]

↑ I said series. A DBZ movie is not a series.
And Whis was still stronger than Beerus even if his power was a mistery at that point. Hell, it would be like stating (officially, not from a characters' lips) that Ginyu is the strongest and having no issue with that only because Freeza's power was unknown at the time.

It is very simple:
Whis' power being unknown doesn't make him weaker than Beerus, so the statement that Beerus is the strongest cannot be valid no matter how you look at it.

[TheGmGoken]

This is pointless.

This case is the same matter as Burter being the fastest in the universe. We all know that Freeza was faster and even Ginyu. The sasme apply here. IT wasn't till the end of the movie that Birsu said Whis > himself. Which is part of the mystery.

[hleV]

Vegeta said he was the strongest in the universe, but it was from a characters' lips and thus doesn't have to be accepted as an undeniable truth. Same goes for Butta being the fastest in the universe. Both are wrong, so why does the statement that Beerus is the strongest have to be right?

[TheGmGoken]

Both are wrong, so why does the statement that Beerus is the strongest have to be right?

Because at that point all we knew was Birsu was the strongest and Whis was like a guide. Until we found out otherwise.

[Kaboom]

Wait, do some people think that just because Whis was revealed to be stronger than Beers, that Beers' stated rank as stronger than everyone else is somehow null and void? Doesn't anyone know how suspense and storytelling work?