Start with Z or the Beginning

[ABED]

Piccolo's isn't as compelling because all you do is hear about his evil years, you don't see them, hence why it's not as compelling.

Kai isn't a stand alone series. Putting a recap doesn't make it a stand alone. Z and Kai are substitutes. You could watch Z without DB and still get the story. Hell, that's what many of us did because there was little choice. It's not made to be watched first. I wonder what the makeup of people who have seen Kai are. Are they new comers or are they people already familiar with the franchise.

I love Dragon Ball, but it's not a show you watch for the story. It's an enjoyable story but most watch it for the characters, humor and fights. You might not be missing a lot of story, but you are missing A LOT.

How does the most important stuff happen in Z/Kai?

I don't think Dragon Ball moves as slow as people believe. It starts off differently, mainly as a gag manga, but the Tournaments are so damn good and a highlight of the show and show case some of the best writing in the show.

[TheGmGoken]

Not everyone can sit & watch 444 (DB/Z) or ~300 (DB/Kai+Boo arc) episodes. My point is that for such people, skipping DB and starting with DBKai (not DBZ or chapter 195 of the manga) is also a good option to get into the series, since the most important stuff happen in that portion of the story. DBKai is currently 98 episodes, and it will probably go to around 150 episodes. This is much less than watching both DB & DBKai, not to mention DBZ or even DBGT.

There a reason why it's a sequel(Going by anime btw). Why watch an 1 and 1/2 movie only to watch the sequel that's 3 hours. When you can watch the reboot of the second movie that's only 2 hours! The most important stuff happen in DBZ portion? Besides the SSJ transformation DB most likely have the most important stuff as it SETS up Z plots.

Red Ribbon sets up Cyborg arc
Goku's TAIL sets up Saiyan Arc
KAMEHAMEHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty much the most Iconic attack in the show.
You get the know HOW Goku met his friends
You understand Piccolo's grudge.
You understand how Goku got to be so skilled and where half his moveset comes from.
The bond of the characters(There is very little in Z not counting filler, OVA, and Movies)

You know all these stuff if you start from Kai.

No you don't. Yes you get a flashback. But who the hell is King Piccolo? All you know is that he was once with Kami. That's all. You don't know nothing about what he did. WHO he killed(KRILLIN CANT DIE A SECOND TIME!!!!), and the damage he caused. You don't know Chi Chi if you start from Kai. All you know is that she's Goku's wife and she kinda naggy. You don't know how they met or how her character changed. You DO NOT understand why Goku and Piccolo was rivals until Freeza arc I think. Well if you count Gohan telling Piccolo he's "Grumpy".

We learn & experience everything about the tail in the Saiyan arc.

You experience Goku turning into Oozaru in the Saiyan Arc? . All you do is learn some added stuff that you SHOULD already know. "Go for the tail. It's the weak point!". How does everyone know that!? "We can train our tails". For one that's kinda a plot hole cause Krillin should have known that since Goku did it already. Even something as Goku's tail is missed if you start with Z-Kai.

You know exactly who & what Piccolo was, why he hated Goku, and his ultimate goal if you start with Kai.

So you know King Piccolo? What he did. Who he killed? You know that Muten Roshi died if you start with Kai? Had Goku not said "KRILLIN CANT BE BROUGHT BACK A SECOND TIME!" would you know that Krillin died. You don't understand Piccolo as much as you would if you start from Kai. As ABED said seeing things is different from hearing things. If you hear a rumor that's different than seeing the action.

We learn all about Kuririn & Chaozu having died once & the Dragon Balls not being able to bring someone back for a 2nd time during the fight with the Saibaimen & Nappa.

With ALL the stuff going. Most or some people might overlook that line. Now tell me. If you start with Z-Kai. HOW YOU KNOW WHAT THE DRAGONBALLS ARE!? Bulma explained what they are. We know why Goku likes the 4 start ball so much(Besides minor mentions in DBZ), we see how the adventures changed the characters, and most of all we learned what Shenlong and the Balls was. If you start with Z-Kai. They just go POOF! I SUMMON SHENLONG!

There is barely any character development in Dragon Ball.

. Krillin goes from a cheating bastard to what he is in Z, Yamcha was scared of girls now look at him, Tien went from an ass to a good ass, Bulma went from selfish to a great friend, Goku was naive...now he knows the world and became a better man as he forgives people more, Lunch(YES EVEN FUCKING LUNCH) as the series went on gained more control of her yellow form and cared a little bit, and we showed how much God-Kami was going to do to Save Earth from Jr.

Don't you tell me there no character growth in Dragonball.

That's my point. The changes aren't significant like with Vegeta or Piccolo.

IN DBz_kai the only growth of characters if from Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan. THREE characters compared to the main cast of DB. DB has growth. It wasn't a detailed because you can see it for yourself. If you watch through the episodes you would realize that Krillin is less of an ass recently. WOW! He's really changing! Vegeta's growth is always the focus point when it happens. That's 2 different styles quite frankly.

How does the most important stuff happen in Z/Kai?

Because everyone forgets that most Z-Kai stuff was set up in Dragonball(Even though Toriyama wasn't thinking ahead). Most people only care for the popular stuff rather than the "good" stuff(Quotes around good since that's an opinion)

I don't think Dragon Ball moves as slow as people believe. It starts off differently, mainly as a gag manga, but the Tournaments are so damn good and a highlight of the show and show case some of the best writing in the show.

Never got that either. I found many people(Myself included) who thought Dragonball was fast as hell for a long adventure anime-manga. The first few episodes maybe but that's to introduce the characters. After the Pilfar shit is done then the pace is great. People making as if the series was slow placed as Z with filler

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You could watch Z without DB and still get the story.

You might not be missing a lot of story, but you are missing A LOT.

That's my point. There are people who can't take that much, so skipping DB to go immediately to the fast Kai is what's best for them to get into the show.

How does the most important stuff happen in Z/Kai?

Saiyans, Goku's, Piccolo's, and the Dragon Balls' origins are revealed, Super Saiyan, Freeza, Artificial Humans, Majin Boo, Kaios & Kaioshins are introduced, Namek blows up, Earth blows up, new Dragon Balls, time travel, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, and Goten are introduced, Piccolo turns into a good guy & reunites with God, a new God appears, Fusion, main characters die and almost stay dead forever, we see the AfterLife, etc. The events in DB are much more simple and less important, while DBZ/Kai is filled with plot-twists & crazy stuff. But both of them are equally awesome IMO.

Red Ribbon sets up Cyborg arc

All we need to know is that Goku defeated them in the past, which we are told again.

KAMEHAMEHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty much the most Iconic attack in the show.

... And we see it in DBZ/Kai from the start all the time, what's your point?

You get the know HOW Goku met his friends

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai.

You understand Piccolo's grudge.

We know from the recap of Kai that Daimao was his father and was killed by Goku.

You understand how Goku got to be so skilled and where half his moveset comes from.

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai. We never saw how Vegeta or Freeza got so skilled.

No you don't. Yes you get a flashback. But who the hell is King Piccolo? All you know is that he was once with Kami. That's all.

All we learn is that he tried to take over the world, that he is God's evil half, that Goku killed him, and that he reincarnated into Piccolo. I think we know enough.

You don't know nothing about what he did. WHO he killed (KRILLIN CANT DIE A SECOND TIME!!!!), and the damage he caused.

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai. And Yamcha says that

You don't know Chi Chi if you start from Kai. All you know is that she's Goku's wife and she kinda naggy. You don't know how they met or how her character changed.

Is there really anything else we need to know about her to understand what's going on?

You DO NOT understand why Goku and Piccolo was rivals until Freeza arc I think.

Not only the Kai recap explains it, we even see them fighting.

You experience Goku turning into Oozaru in the Saiyan Arc? . All you do is learn some added stuff that you SHOULD already know. "Go for the tail. It's the weak point!". How does everyone know that!? "We can train our tails". For one that's kinda a plot hole cause Krillin should have known that since Goku did it already. Even something as Goku's tail is missed if you start with Z-Kai.

We see Gohan transforming twice and being more badass (ki-blasts from the mouth), we see Vegeta transforming and being even more badass (he controls it, and dat armor & hair), we learn that it's the Saiyans' weak-spot from Raditz, but we also learn that this weakness can be overcame from Vegeta & Nappa, we see that it grows back when in danger from Gohan, and we learn that it gives a x10 boost. We learn that Goku had it once and transformed a few times, and even killed his gramps once, and that Kami removed it permanently.

So you know King Piccolo? What he did. Who he killed? You know that Muten Roshi died if you start with Kai?

Is that important information to understand what's going on?

Had Goku not said "KRILLIN CANT BE BROUGHT BACK A SECOND TIME!" would you know that Krillin died.

From Yamcha, before he died from the Saibaiman.

You don't understand Piccolo as much as you would if you start from Kai. As ABED said seeing things is different from hearing things. If you hear a rumor that's different than seeing the action.

Well, of course it's not the same. I never said it was the same.

With ALL the stuff going. Most or some people might overlook that line.

What logic is that? Yamcha says "I'll fight because I can die and you can't" to Kuririn, and then Tenshinhan commits suicide because Chaozu can't come back. It's not an easter egg that is difficult to catch, and the same can be said about every line.

Now tell me. If you start with Z-Kai. HOW YOU KNOW WHAT THE DRAGONBALLS ARE!? Bulma explained what they are. We know why Goku likes the 4 start ball so much(Besides minor mentions in DBZ), we see how the adventures changed the characters, and most of all we learned what Shenlong and the Balls was. If you start with Z-Kai. They just go POOF! I SUMMON SHENLONG!

The recap in Kai explains that the DBs can grant a wish.

. Krillin goes from a cheating bastard to what he is in Z, Yamcha was scared of girls now look at him, Tenshinhan went from an ass to a good ass, Bulma went from selfish to a great friend, Goku was naive...now he knows the world and became a better man as he forgives people more, Lunch(YES EVEN FUCKING LUNCH) as the series went on gained more control of her yellow form and cared a little bit, and we showed how much God-Kami was going to do to Save Earth from Jr.

The personality changes for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan happened shortly after their introduction. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo evolved more & more over time. Kuririn was an ass in one chapter, a few chapters later, he is Goku's best friend. Yamcha can't get close to girls & is an enemy, a few chapters later he goes with Bulma & turns into a good guy. Tenshinhan is a wanna-be assassin that wants to kill Goku, a few chapters later Muten Roshi talks to him & he changes his ways. That's all the character development there was for them.

Don't you tell me there no character growth in Dragonball.

I never said there was no character growth in DB.

[ABED]

That's my point. There are people who can't take that much, so skipping DB to go immediately to the fast Kai is what's best for them to get into the show.

It wasn't mine. I meant you are missing a lot of great stuff. How do you know Kai is what's best for getting into the show? You're assuming Kai has the best material.

The events in DB are much more simple and less important

Simple can mean less convoluted. There's plenty that happens in Dragon Ball like tournaments, Goku meeting his friends, losing them, working to bring them back to life, losing his master, becoming the hero of the world, meeting his wife, meeting god, learning to use his powers, fighting the Red Ribbon Army, pirates, treasure, humans that contribute something to the story, bad guys become good guys and seek redemption. I don't see how any of that is less important.

[TheGmGoken]

All we need to know is that Goku defeated them in the past, which we are told again.

Kinda boring and underwhealming don't ya think?

... And we see it in DBZ/Kai from the start all the time, what's your point?

You said important stuff only happen in Z. KAMEHAMEHA is important cause how does everyone knows the attack.

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai.

Kinda is. You would understand their bond. Hell Yamcha cheated on Bulma and she still cried. Krillin got piss. Goku got pissed when everyone died(Not really everyone). You understand why Goku was so angry when Krillin died. Understand why everyone looks up to Goku.

We know from the recap of Kai that Daimao was his father and was killed by Goku.

True. But there more to the grudge than just that.

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai. We never saw how Vegeta or Freeza got so skilled.

Vegeta states that Goku have a natural gift for fighting far above his own. Vegeta's speech on whY Goku's Number 1. That's important and it's because Goku was trained.

All we learn is that he tried to take over the world, that he is God's evil half, that Goku killed him, and that he reincarnated into Piccolo. I think we know enough.

So basically(Removing being reincarnated and being God's half) he's Freeza? King Damio had much more important stuff than this. We don't even know who killed Krillin if we skip DB.

Not important to what happens in DBZ/Kai. And Yamcha says that

Krillin dying isn't important?

Is there really anything else we need to know about her to understand what's going on?

Um... yes? Don't you think you want to know how Chi Chi knows Goku?

We see Gohan transforming twice and being more badass (ki-blasts from the mouth), we see Vegeta transforming and being even more badass (he controls it, and dat armor & hair), we learn that it's the Saiyans' weak-spot from Raditz, but we also learn that this weakness can be overcame from Vegeta & Nappa, we see that it grows back when in danger from Gohan, and we learn that it gives a x10 boost. We learn that Goku had it once and transformed a few times, and even killed his gramps once, and that Kami removed it permanently.

I said Goku not Vegeta and Gohan. If you watched DB you would already know that Goku killed his Grandpa

Is that important information to understand what's going on?

Yes......

What logic is that? Yamcha says "I'll fight because I can die and you can't" to Kuririn, and then Tenshinhan commits suicide because Chaozu can't come back. It's not an easter egg that is difficult to catch, and the same can be said about every line.

People overlook the line =/. What do you mean the logic?

The recap in Kai explains that the DBs can grant a wish.

That's it? Really? That's not a lot of info.

The personality changes for Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan happened shortly after their introduction. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo evolved more & more over time. Kuririn was an ass in one chapter, a few chapters later, he is Goku's best friend. Yamcha can't get close to girls & is an enemy, a few chapters later he goes with Bulma & turns into a good guy. Tenshinhan is a wanna-be assassin that wants to kill Goku, a few chapters later Muten Roshi talks to him & he changes his ways. That's all the character development there was for them.

Krillin was an asshole until the second Tenkaichi Budokai arc.....

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It wasn't mine. I meant you are missing a lot of great stuff. How do you know Kai is what's best for getting into the show? You're assuming Kai has the best material.

It wasn't a problem for me either, which is why I always start from the beginning. But there are others who do have that problem.

Simple can mean less convoluted. There's plenty that happens in Dragon Ball like tournaments, Goku meeting his friends, losing them, working to bring them back to life, losing his master, becoming the hero of the world, meeting his wife, meeting god, learning to use his powers, fighting the Red Ribbon Army, pirates, treasure, humans that contribute something to the story, bad guys become good guys and seek redemption. I don't see how any of that is less important.

But DB doesn't end the story, while DBKai does end it (or will soon ), and Kai, while not the best of course, isn't a bad start (better than starting with DBZ).

TheGmGoken, let's not play the "thousand small replies" game, I beg you, I played this game recently with someone else. My point is this: the recap in Kai contains everything important to the story that affects the story we see in Kai. If you see the recap, there aren't any questions about how Goku got so strong, how did he meet Bulma, Kuririn, etc, what the Dragon Balls are, who Piccolo is, etc. You start episode 1 of Kai, and you learn everything you need to know without details. If you want to know the details, you watch DB later. If you want to see the same story more detailed with more stuff, you watch DBZ later. If you want to know about SS4, etc, you watch GT later. That's the point of Kai.

And people overlooking a line is their problem, it's a very obvious line after all.

And Kuririn was an asshole in the 21st TB, RRA, and Uranai Baba arcs? How?

[RandomGuy96]

Not much important happens in Dragon Ball before Raditz. At least, nothing relevant to Z, aside from some of the Piccolo stuff. The supposed development of Krillin, Ten, Yamcha, Bulma etc. is particularly unimportant, as all of the original characters bar Goku and Piccolo (and really, the latter just barley counts as an original) are quickly shoved out of the spot light and ignored forever.

The series only started getting good when King Piccolo showed up.

[dbboxkaifan]

now people have the gift of starting with Kai.

Wouldn't call that a "gift" because at one point it's beautifully remastered with an epic soundtrack and then the next it's one big turd bag.

For the better or the worst just watch DBZ which had consistent PQ and proper music placement or read the manga if you don't want any filler at all.

[AgitoZ]

Not much important happens in Dragon Ball before Raditz. At least, nothing relevant to Z, aside from some of the Piccolo stuff. The supposed development of Krillin, Ten, Yamcha, Bulma etc. is particularly unimportant, as all of the original characters bar Goku and Piccolo (and really, the latter just barley counts as an original) are quickly shoved out of the spot light and ignored forever.

The series only started getting good when King Piccolo showed up.

Except the Saiyan fight feels much different when you've grown up with the characters and they keep dropping like flies. A lot of weight is lost when you aren't familiar with the characters and their pre-established relationships, not just to that particular fight but other moments later in the series as well.

[Fionordequester]

The series only started getting good when King Piccolo showed up.
Except the Saiyan fight feels much different when you've grown up with the characters and they keep dropping like flies. A lot of weight is lost when you aren't familiar with the characters and their pre-established relationships, not just to that particular fight but other moments later in the series as well.

Any thing else in particular though? Aside from Krillin dying maybe? It seems to me that, no matter what, unless you can get a friend that's willing to set aside a couple of months or so to watch all of Dragon Ball (though I guess you could just say "hey, you can skip ahead to Z, but can you watch at least the first five episodes?), the only ones who will really get the full impact are those who grew up on Dragon Ball.

[AgitoZ]

Any thing else in particular though? Aside from Krillin dying maybe? It seems to me that, no matter what, unless you can get a friend that's willing to set aside a couple of months or so to watch all of Dragon Ball (though I guess you could just say "hey, you can skip ahead to Z, but can you watch at least the first five episodes?), the only ones who will really get the full impact are those who grew up on Dragon Ball.

I don't know what else to tell you.

If learning characters' personalities, origins, etc sounds skippable then I guess we just like Dragon Ball for different reasons. Fights become more engaging when you've spent time with the characters. Twists, call backs, and subversions are more interesting when you can actually point them out.

Watching the original Dragon Ball not only enriches the world and its characters, but it also enriches the experience of watching (or reading it) when you reach the Z era and it's just a bit more than "that dumb show about blondes powering up for 20 episodes."

[Kid Buu]

Piccolo's isn't as compelling because all you do is hear about his evil years, you don't see them, hence why it's not as compelling.

None of the development in Z is deep or compelling either in my opinion; Dragon Ball is not really the series that thrives on great writing.

[Zephyr]

To add to the weight the Saiyan arc holds after experiencing Dragon Ball:

- You get to finally learn about the origin of the Oozaru transformation, and the exact nature of its purpose. You learn that his race weaponizes that terrible transformation, and we see one of them do it!

- The human characters + Piccolo dying results in them having to go all the way to Namek. The fact that you've known these characters for 5 story arcs already, it makes much more sense for the characters to want to go out of their way to revive them. Sure, you could just be told that they're important to the other characters, but knowing the characters puts more of an impact to their death and makes the other characters' willingness to risk their asses and go through space a lot more believable. This makes the Namek arc itself feel more connected and believable.

Also, have people brought up the point that knowing the characters for a while as Earthlings, and then learning of their true origins, is much more impactful than being told that they were thought of as one thing but then revealed to be another?

I get that yes, you can understand the plot points just fine without feeling the impact, but as others have brought up, the series is more about feeling the impact of things, rather than learning about bulleted plot points.

[Rocketman]

The only thing that would dissuade me from getting somebody to start at the beginning is that the beginning of Dragonball is completely, vastly different from the entire bulk of the series afterwards.

Not all of Dragonball, no, but the Pilaf arc is. If they like the Pilaf arc, well that all goes away. If they don't, are they gonna wait through it and maybe the 21st Tournament for the parts where it starts getting more srsbsns?

[PhoenixEX]

I say start off with GT and ruin the series for yourself!
Haha no I kid, of course it's better to start off with original DB. Even though there are some good points being made as to why starting off with Z if you are a lover of the "fighter" genre over your more laid back "funny gag/light fighter" genre, I still think that starting off with original DB is the better choice in the long run.
Also I think it's a bad idea to play the Bardock special before DB. It's best to play that, as someone said earlier, after Goku meets Frieza for the first time.

[TheGmGoken]

TheGmGoken, let's not play the "thousand small replies" game, I beg you, I played this game recently with someone else. My point is this: the recap in Kai contains everything important to the story that affects the story we see in Kai. If you see the recap, there aren't any questions about how Goku got so strong, how did he meet Bulma, Kuririn, etc, what the Dragon Balls are, who Piccolo is, etc. You start episode 1 of Kai, and you learn everything you need to know without details. If you want to know the details, you watch DB later. If you want to see the same story more detailed with more stuff, you watch DBZ later. If you want to know about SS4, etc, you watch GT later. That's the point of Kai.

But I like that game . All I'm saying that you should watch from the Beginning so you can KNOW what happen. I understand flashbacks and mentions will kinda help people who start with Z. But saying "People don't want to watch 120+ episodes" isn't a good excuse. If you watch a sequel then a prequel that's kinda fucked up IMO. Espeically if the sequel mentions some of the prequel parts. The recap gives you a overview of things but you WILL not understand 100%. It's like hearing a rumor and seeing it for yourself. Why watch the original last? You're missing so info that will never be explained again. Even if it's minor. For example Lunch. She's gone in Kai(Z had filler of her). But Krillin mentions her. You don't know who she is regardless if she appears in the credit. You should start with the original first. The point of Kai was to make DBZ less filler. Not so you can't watch DB.

And Kuririn was an asshole in the 21st TB, RRA, and Uranai Baba arcs? How?

Krillin used dirty attacks on Jackie Chun, Fan service Bulma, and I don't really remember him in Baba arc(sorry). The second Tenkaichi Budokai arc that all stopped.

[Ajay]

To play devils advocate a bit, Z makes a point to explain near enough every single reference with lengthy flashback sequences.

Oh, Piccolo is going to merge with Kami? Better show a long sequence that breaks down each part of that dilemma.
Huh, Red Ribbon Army scientist is making the androids and they want to kill Goku?! Yeah, let's show Goku going through the motions to defeat that army.

The list goes on.

DBZ is a kids show. It's not a gigantic lore heavy book like Lord of the Rings nor is it an incredibly serious movie franchise. Those comparisons are incredibly weak.

It's also NOT the manga. It's a show with 'Z' tacked on the end. It's a separate entity that was written and directed in a way that allows it to stand by itself. A majority of us viewed the show with Z first and arguably understood everything perfectly fine.

The point of Kai was to make DBZ less filler. Not so you can't watch DB.

No, that's an added bonus. The point of Kai was to refresh the series for a new audience. The fact it retains the necessary flashbacks once again proves that it's a perfectly viable option.

Of course it's better to view the show from the start but it's nothing but pretentious praise to imply that it's a necessity.

[TheGmGoken]

No, that's an added bonus. The point of Kai was to refresh the series for a new audience. The fact it retains the necessary flashbacks once again proves that it's a perfectly viable option.

So as my point was making. You're saying that DBZ Kai was made so a new audience doesn't watch Dragonball?

[Ajay]

No, that's an added bonus. The point of Kai was to refresh the series for a new audience. The fact it retains the necessary flashbacks once again proves that it's a perfectly viable option.

So as my point was making. You're saying that DBZ Kai was made so a new audience doesn't watch Dragonball?

No.

Kai was made for an audience who likely haven't seen Dragon Ball. It's catered to new viewers. Its existence doesn't force that new audience to not watch its predecessor. It just ensures it's not a necessity...much like Z did.

[TheGmGoken]

No, that's an added bonus. The point of Kai was to refresh the series for a new audience. The fact it retains the necessary flashbacks once again proves that it's a perfectly viable option.

So as my point was making. You're saying that DBZ Kai was made so a new audience doesn't watch Dragonball?

No.

Kai was made for an audience who likely haven't seen Dragon Ball. It's catered to new viewers. Its existence doesn't force that new audience to not watch its predecessor. It just ensures it's not a necessity...much like Z did.

Well seeing how well Kai did in Japan(Rating wise wasn't it a hit) and the fact that they had DBZ OVA(s) before Kai along with Video games I think Japan might have known the story by heart. Also how does "Z" ensures it? Z came out RIGHT AFTER Dragonball.. Goku got married and then they said "MAKE SURE TO WATCH DBZ!" at the end(Talking bout Japan).