SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

[i'mfuckingevil]

I can see that we entered in the: Who is stronger - issue?

I addressed that in the OP.

I don't know if I can buy that.

4 years old Gohan with no training at all was stronger during his rage boost than Goku who had trained all his life.

5 or 6 years old Gohan, with only 1 year of training with Piccolo, his power unlocked by Guru, and a couple of Zenkais, rivaled third form Freeza. At that point Goku was stronger but he had trained with Kaio, he knew Kaioken, had more zenkais than Gohan and then unlocked SSJ.

10 or 11 years old Gohan training with his father outside and inside ROSAT in preparation to the androids and Cell (or, in other words, with the same training that Goku did), not only caught up to Coku, but completely surpassed him by a long shot, eventually even reaching SSJ2 and becoming stronger than even Cell, who was much stronger than Goku.

Gohan has always been superior to Goku and everyone else with his potential. The story itself is written to reflect that.

If Gohan really was more powerful than Goku during the Buu saga, then (like I asked earlier but apparently no one paid attention) why didn't Goku just use instant transmission to go to earth, get Gohan, and then come back to the Kai world after Vegeta wished everyone back?

I think the story WAS written to reflect Gohan was the strongest by the time the Cell saga ended, and I totally believe that Gohan could have ended up being the strongest had he continued working out after the Cell saga but again - I think the natural abilities he has just comes with being a hybrid saiyan. I think Goten and Trunks have similar potential but by the time they were conceived their fathers were either SSJ or close to reaching that power, which may have given them more power at impregnation onwards throughout their conception but may have also limited their potential. I don't know.

Before Battle of Gods, Gohan is the strongest unfused character of DBZ. That includes SSJ1-3 Goku. You can say a hypothetical powerup may help Goku surpass Gohan but you cant say its a fact because it has not and very likely will not ever be proven.

Pre Battle of Gods - Gohan > Goku.

I really, seriously, despise Battle of gods and everything about it - I don't care what anyone says, it is not part of the main story nor is it canon. And again, someone else in the thread already said that it was a fanmade rumor that Gohan was the strongest singular character in DBZ, so SSJ3 Goku is not ruled out.

[KentalSSJ6]

You dont have to like Battle of Gods, but by saying "I dont care what anyone says", your doing nothing but displaying willful ignorance. Its plain to see the facts shown in material given to us but refusing to acknowledge them is just a case of denial. I dont like Broly but that doesn't mean I can ignore his existence.

Before the plot twist of Whis being stronger, Beerus was stated to be the strongest being in the history of Z.

Meaning Beerus > any and all who appeared before him, including the likes of Super Vegito and Buuhan. Beerus effortlessly trounced SSJ3 Goku, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, Super Saiyan 2 (assumingly) Vegeta, and the rest of the Z warriors.

The only time Beerus struggled even a little bit was against SSJG Goku. That alone shows SSJG Goku > everyone besides Beerus and Whis.

So again, Pre BOG - Gohan > Goku

Post BOG - Goku > Gohan.

P.S. Again, drop the canon stuff. It doesn't work here when even the manga itself has inconsistencies and plotholes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And again, someone else in the thread already said that it was a fanmade rumor that Gohan was the strongest singular character in DBZ, so SSJ3 Goku is not ruled out.

Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kill Evil Boo, yet SS3 Goku with SS2 Vegeta didn't stand a chance against him. So, how is Goku the strongest again?

[Dayspring]

If Gohan really was more powerful than Goku during the Buu saga, then (like I asked earlier but apparently no one paid attention) why didn't Goku just use instant transmission to go to earth, get Gohan, and then come back to the Kai world after Vegeta wished everyone back?

This is explained in the series. When it became apparent that they were going to lose, they wanted Earthlings to solve their own problems for a change (by pooling their collective power into the massive genkidama). Thematically, Goku had to deliver the final blow (throwing the genkidama) because the story wasn't very "passing of the torch" at that point.

[rereboy]

If Gohan really was more powerful than Goku during the Buu saga, then (like I asked earlier but apparently no one paid attention) why didn't Goku just use instant transmission to go to earth, get Gohan, and then come back to the Kai world after Vegeta wished everyone back?

That was the first thing Goku suggested after hearing Vegeta idea to resurrect everyone (get the kids to fight). But Vegeta suggested that EVERYONE should contribute to the end of Buu, and Goku agreed. So, in short, its acknowledged in the story that the thing that makes more sense is to bring the kids there to fight (Gohan and Gotenks) but they favor a more meaningful and symbolic plan instead of the obvious. So, its clear that at that point the story was more about meaning than about the safest or the most logical plan to kill Buu.

[Low Tone G]

That was the first thing Goku suggested after hearing Vegeta idea to resurrect everyone (get the kids to fight). But Vegeta suggested that EVERYONE should contribute to the end of Buu, and Goku agreed. So, in short, its acknowledged in the story that the thing that makes more sense is to bring the kids there to fight (Gohan and Gotenks) but they favor a more meaningful and symbolic plan instead of the obvious. So, its clear that at that point the story was more about meaning than about the safest or the most logical plan to kill Buu.

I agree. We don't know for sure if Super Vegetto had the technique to totally vaporise Buu (any kinds of him, I'm speaking of his ultimate regenerartions skills) as we didn't see he can do that even if was highly above any kinds of Buu. So we can assume that Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks most likely would have failed to kill Kid Buu. So in that case a very powerful Genki Dama (Universal Spirit Bomb), which had the power in Mystic Gohan, was the best option left.

[Darkprince410]

That was the first thing Goku suggested after hearing Vegeta idea to resurrect everyone (get the kids to fight). But Vegeta suggested that EVERYONE should contribute to the end of Buu, and Goku agreed. So, in short, its acknowledged in the story that the thing that makes more sense is to bring the kids there to fight (Gohan and Gotenks) but they favor a more meaningful and symbolic plan instead of the obvious. So, its clear that at that point the story was more about meaning than about the safest or the most logical plan to kill Buu.

I agree. We don't know for sure if Super Vegetto had the technique to totally vaporise Buu (any kinds of him, I'm speaking of his ultimate regenerartions skills) as we didn't see he can do that even if was highly above any kinds of Buu. So we can assume that Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks most likely would have failed to kill Kid Buu. So in that case a very powerful Genki Dama (Universal Spirit Bomb), which had the power in Mystic Gohan, was the best option left.

Vegetto never used any attack of that sort because he wasn't wanting to kill Buu. His entire goal was to force Buu into realizing that absorption was the only way to beat him, so he could go in and save Gohan and the others. Just because we never see him using such an attack doesn't mean he doesn't have the capacity to.

[Super Vegetto]

That was the first thing Goku suggested after hearing Vegeta idea to resurrect everyone (get the kids to fight). But Vegeta suggested that EVERYONE should contribute to the end of Buu, and Goku agreed. So, in short, its acknowledged in the story that the thing that makes more sense is to bring the kids there to fight (Gohan and Gotenks) but they favor a more meaningful and symbolic plan instead of the obvious. So, its clear that at that point the story was more about meaning than about the safest or the most logical plan to kill Buu.

I agree. We don't know for sure if Super Vegetto had the technique to totally vaporise Buu (any kinds of him, I'm speaking of his ultimate regenerartions skills) as we didn't see he can do that even if was highly above any kinds of Buu. So we can assume that Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks most likely would have failed to kill Kid Buu. So in that case a very powerful Genki Dama (Universal Spirit Bomb), which had the power in Mystic Gohan, was the best option left.

This:

(awful scanlation removed by administrator)

Btw spirit bomb uses different type of energy, not the mighty power of Gohan,,spirit/life energy or something like that...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I agree. We don't know for sure if Super Vegetto had the technique to totally vaporise Buu (any kinds of him, I'm speaking of his ultimate regenerartions skills) as we didn't see he can do that even if was highly above any kinds of Buu. So we can assume that Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks most likely would have failed to kill Kid Buu. So in that case a very powerful Genki Dama (Universal Spirit Bomb), which had the power in Mystic Gohan, was the best option left.

I doubt that Vegeta believed that Gohan & Gotenks would fail again, and I doubt they would really fail (maybe Gotenks because he is stupid). Vegeta just wanted for the Earthlings to save their asses this time, it wasn't the easiest & more safe way, it was actually the hardest & most risky way to kill Boo.

Also, Gohan gave his genki while he was in his regular state, not his Ultimate state, and Goten & Trunks didn't even transform to Super Saiyans, or even Gotenks. So, since they give genki & not ki, transforming/powering-up wouldn't help, since they didn't do any of these.

[mAcChaos]

Through the entire Buu Saga, the thematic way of resolving things was always there.

They could have tried to do the brute force, easiest way, but whenever there was a choice, it always went to the thematic way of resolving it.

That's why Goku said he wanted Goten and Trunks to beat Buu, not himself.

That's why they crushed the Potara.

And then later they want the Earth to be involved in saving itself.

[Flame Dragon]

If he somehow used Kaioken during SSJ3 he would probaly just explode on the spot.

This.

[i'mfuckingevil]

You dont have to like Battle of Gods, but by saying "I dont care what anyone says", your doing nothing but displaying willful ignorance. Its plain to see the facts shown in material given to us but refusing to acknowledge them is just a case of denial. I dont like Broly but that doesn't mean I can ignore his existence.

Before the plot twist of Whis being stronger, Beerus was stated to be the strongest being in the history of Z.

Meaning Beerus > any and all who appeared before him, including the likes of Super Vegito and Buuhan. Beerus effortlessly trounced SSJ3 Goku, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, Super Saiyan 2 (assumingly) Vegeta, and the rest of the Z warriors.

The only time Beerus struggled even a little bit was against SSJG Goku. That alone shows SSJG Goku > everyone besides Beerus and Whis.

So again, Pre BOG - Gohan > Goku

Post BOG - Goku > Gohan.

P.S. Again, drop the canon stuff. It doesn't work here when even the manga itself has inconsistencies and plotholes.

Perhaps I came off a little douche baggy with my way of words. But to be fair, if you wanted to ignore Broly's existence I'd say that's fine if you wanted to do that since he was not in the manga.

Anyways, I don't like how Beerus was able to overwhelm SSJ3 Goku with a flick of a finger, and then it was said that his mentor was even more powerful than him. This limitless level of superhuman power is ridiculous to me. So in that universe, who's to say there is not another entity who could overwhelm Beeru's mentor and another that could overwhelm that character and so on and so forth?

I also didn't like how they're milking the saiyan genetic material. SSJ3 should have been the last transformation possible. SSJ God seems like a gimmick, making the saiyan race discriminantly a special species in the universe instead of just having the unique character Goku be an outlier of the species who happened to have mastered it.

In fact I've got a problem with a lot of new-gen DBZ release - Goku and his friends return, episode of Bardock, and so on and so forth.

And again, someone else in the thread already said that it was a fanmade rumor that Gohan was the strongest singular character in DBZ, so SSJ3 Goku is not ruled out.

Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kill Evil Boo, yet SS3 Goku with SS2 Vegeta didn't stand a chance against him. So, how is Goku the strongest again?

by Evil Buu do you mean Super Buu? And I think Goku meant they didn't stand a chance against him under the power constraint of being inside of his body. Probably keeps a barrier of the full power level .

[Darkprince410]

And again, someone else in the thread already said that it was a fanmade rumor that Gohan was the strongest singular character in DBZ, so SSJ3 Goku is not ruled out.

Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kill Evil Boo, yet SS3 Goku with SS2 Vegeta didn't stand a chance against him. So, how is Goku the strongest again?

by Evil Buu do you mean Super Buu? And I think Goku meant they didn't stand a chance against him under the power constraint of being inside of his body. Probably keeps a barrier of the full power level .

Goku wasn't aware of any power constraint that he was under due to his reduced size until after Evil Buu had pointed it out to him, and besides, his comment was made in regards to them leaving his body, that even after they left (thus returning them to normal size and removing any restraint associated), they'd still be no match for him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

by Evil Buu do you mean Super Buu?

Yes.

And I think Goku meant they didn't stand a chance against him under the power constraint of being inside of his body. Probably keeps a barrier of the full power level .

Nope, Goku is talking about fighting outside:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

[Patrick]

Yeah, I mean at most he might be able to sustain it for a few seconds, but then he would probably explode from the sheer strain alone, and the energy drain would be tremendous.

I admit, it would be cool to see at the very least.

[IsaacOfficixl]

I think if Goku mastered SSJ3 then he could add the Kaioken on top of it, if he did the 20X Kaioken he would have an 8000X increase in power from his base form, making him twice as powerful as SSJ4.

[Khin]

I think if Goku mastered SSJ3 then he could add the Kaioken on top of it, if he did the 20X Kaioken he would have an 8000X increase in power from his base form, making him twice as powerful as SSJ4.

Welcome to the forum IsaacOfficixl.

Spoiler:

In Super, Elder Kaioshin said that adding Kaio-ken on top of Super Saiyan is basically suicide, hence why we never saw Goku use it. If Goku's already mastered Super Saiyan wouldn't do any good with Kaio-ken, then I don't see how Super Saiyan 3 (even if he mastered it) would do any good either.

Although, this thread has been inactive for about 3 years, so I'm afraid it's not really a good idea to revive it. Creating a new thread about it would be a better choice.

[Gog]

Why would Goku use Kaio ken X super Saiyan 3? His body would explode.

He would never, ever become the strongest that way, because its to insufficient. As in he would explode

[Lord Frieza]

Hell SS3 is like kaioken turned up to 11, even the 20x kaioken didn't cause Goku to pass out in the middle of battle. Trying to mix the two is way to dangerous.