What If Toriyama Tried To Make DBZ Deep?

[Cipher]

Dragon Ball, for me, is really the perfect "all ages" material. It's really open to anyone. It's simple and unpretentious enough for kids (and thank god that it's unpretentious), but has enough world-building, character growth and even themes that emerge over its long run to provide things to come back to for adults.

It's like a PIxar movie. It's something that is really good at what it does, and what it does is charming, fun and exiting.

I should say also that that doesn't mean I prefer all my fiction to be "simpler." In fact, I can only take so much of that, and Dragon Ball fills a lot of that quota because it does it with more charm than most. But outside of that and a few other indulgences, my fiction intake is, like, bizarre short stories and other material emphasizing art. I'm going to school in the fall for a creative writing MFA. Dragon Ball is simple, but that doesn't mean it can only be enjoyed by those who look for such material.

It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.

Really? One of the reasons I never got into One Piece, despite being encouraged to check it out because I like Dragon Ball, is how up its own ass it seems to be with typical shonen melodrama.

"You won't hurt ... my friends ... because we all ... really care about each other!"

*EMPHASIS LINES! CLOSE UP OF EYES! BLOOD DRIPS!*

It's too much.

[Gyt Kaliba]

2: More character complexity. I'm not talking about giving Gohan Schizzophrenia or anything dark like that, I just think we should see a little bit more of what goes on in their lives during peace-time to flesh out their characters. Bulma and Yamcha's woven into the adventure? Yes! That's good! Now do a bit more of that. I've been watching Breaking Bad, which is nothing like Dragon Ball of course, but one thing that makes it good is that all of the characters have their own worries and concerns outside of the main plot, they all have different senses of humour and whatnot that are more apparent than in Dragon Ball. This wouldn't require very much extra screen-time at all, I believe with just a little bit of this stuff, magic can be worked. By far the biggest change would be showing things like weddings, which are big events in character's lives and shouldn't be missed. I'm pretty sure Kuririn's wedding to #18 is atleast as much of an important moment in his life to any of his battles, so why do we not see it?

This is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said I wanted it to run deeper in some places. Toriyama's greatest ability is to make interesting characters, and it's really a marvel how interesting they are due to how surface-level most of them are. But that, again, is part of the charm. I'm not asking for a full character dissection or anything, but just a bit more to let us in their heads a little, and see even more of what makes them fun characters, instead of them only serving whatever purpose the main narrative needs them for.

[Cipher]

This is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said I wanted it to run deeper in some places. Toriyama's greatest ability is to make interesting characters, and it's really a marvel how interesting they are due to how surface-level most of them are. But that, again, is part of the charm. I'm not asking for a full character dissection or anything, but just a bit more to let us in their heads a little, and see even more of what makes them fun characters, instead of them only serving whatever purpose the main narrative needs them for.

This is actually one case I'd make for the original anime adaptation. I love that it gives us more downtime with the characters. Nothing deeper or more complex, but just time with them being who they are outside of the immediate role they serve in the story arc. It's part of the charm.

[Kamiccolo9]

Toriyama says DB has no theme;

Could you tell me where he says this? That sounds like it would be an interesting conversation (I'm guessing an interview?)

[garnetjester]

I love DB for everything it is, if I want complex stuff I can watch Evangelion. More than depth or complexity or whatever, I think Dragonball has a lot of charm, which isn't easy. The way the characters are written makes them really likable, even if we never even know if Kuririn has a family or not, or how the hell Vegeta ended up with Bulma. Sure, it would be nice to fill in those gaps, but I don't think it's necessary.

Also, I hate dark stuff, and I'm sure if DB was overly dark I wouldn't have liked it as a kid or even now. The way it is works perfectly for me, it's full of adventures, silliness and heroism, but it never takes itself too seriously.

[JulieYBM]

I agree with B and Cipher. I would not necessarily mind a more involved story, but going down the emotional route that Oda Ei'ichirou travels down with One Piece is something I would very much not like to see. I think the great thing about Dragon Ball is indeed that it has no theme. There is certainly lessons we can extrapolate from Dragon Ball, but they're always small things that Toriyama just tosses in on a whim because it's funny or fits his 'poisonous' attitude. Bleach is pretty much the more 'involved' Dragon Ball, although it helps that Kubo Tite actually likes creating comics.

A big part of what made Battle of Gods work so much was that Toriyama wasn't dragging his feet, he was actively energized in writing the story so it felt a lot like the pre-Artificial Humans arc chapters and the pre-Takeda era of the comic.

[Mr.Judge]

Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho made a rather deep crater during the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi compared to when he used it on Cell.

Spoiler:

Joke Post.
So don't take it seriously since Op is trying to make a case for a deep story for a superhero-based Manga.

[Kid Buu]

I thought the theme of DB was that there will always be someone better than you?

[garnetjester]

I thought the theme was working hard to achieve your dreams regardless of the outcome? I guess it had different meanings for each of us.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Toriyama doesn't do "deep"

[TheGmGoken]

It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.

One Piece isn't "deep." The characters all yell what they're sad, happy, or angry about. All of its charm is completely surface level. I'm not knocking that, necessarily, but let's not pretend it's more than that.

Robot Devil: "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"

One Piece may not be "deep" compared to some other anime aimed at a more mature audience, but for a shonen, it's pretty complex, and it's definitely much better written than Dragon Ball.

How the hell is One Piece complex? It's pretty basic. I've seen more complex Shonen manga. One Piece is FAR for complex. Not to mention OP tries to hard to be good and IMHO has shitty writing.

One Piece has far less inconsistencies, relies far less on asspulls, and makes good use out of all of it's characters.

Maybe because the plot is so simple yet tries to hard to be good. Not to mention it's MUCH different from DB in terms of style. It focus on plot than fighting. While DB and Z are the latter. Similar to how TTGL(Fave anime) has some ass pulls because it's more about fighting than adventure(Late first half and most of 2nd half).

If One Piece's story is "average", I cringe to think of what to label DBZ's story as.

One Piece is garbage. I label DBZ's story unique and good.

So you're saying that you'd prefer DBZ to be bad?

*Rage Moment activated*. Let me stop you there. DBZ being BAD is YOUR opinion. Many like it. Many dislike it. Many Neutral. Many LOVE it. Stop forcing down to us that DBZ is bad when obviously none of us here besides you think that. We think it's good. Saying we like DBZ because it's bad is an insult to me. I DON'T LIKE BAD THINGS. The things I like are Good, Awesome, and even Amazing. NEVER EVER Tell me I like a bad thing. The world is full of opinions that's what so bad and great about it. We're nothing alike. Go ahead and hate DBZ. Don't try and ruin in for us by saying it's "bad". When clearly we don't think so. If you don't like DBZ. Talk about DBGT or DB. Just please stop trying to convince people DBZ is bad. When it's your opinion. MY OPINION STATES THAT DBZ IS GOOD. . DBZ is not bad. Never was bad. Never WILL BE BAD. *RAGE MODE OVER*

[B]

Toriyama says DB has no theme;

Could you tell me where he says this? That sounds like it would be an interesting conversation (I'm guessing an interview?)

He was specifically referring to Battle of Gods, but also mentions that's his approach as an artist in general and the last thing he'd ever make a serious attempt at is emotion.

I feel as if there was one more interview/comment from him also touching on the subject in greater detail than the one I linked to, but I can't seem to find it on the site. Perhaps that's just the one I was remembering.

[garnetjester]

I also remember that he said he didn't want to write a touching story, he just felt content writing stuff that could entertain people, even if they didn't remember anything about it afterwards or it wasn't life changing.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Honestly, i dont think think toriyama could pull off a complex and deep stroy if he tried. His forte is fun and action.

[Saiga]

I thought the theme of DB was that there will always be someone better than you?

It can't be. The Boo arc had this being untrue as a plot point.

[RocktheDragon]

As some other users have stated before me I think DBZ works so well (along with DB) because it is relatively simple in its plot, character development, and themes that it covers. I think that's actually something that is really attractive to a lot of fans of the show and it's why so many people have been able to really get into it. It's simple premise just brings so much enjoyment because simplicity isn't a bad thing, especially in DB's case. Part of my reasoning is partly confirmed by the fact that DBZ (and for various other reasons) was a gateway "drug" for other anime's and anime in general for many people. So DB doesn't need to do more than it has, it wouldn't be true to its spirit.

[thatdbzguy]

*Rage Moment activated*. Let me stop you there. DBZ being BAD is YOUR opinion. Many like it. Many dislike it. Many Neutral. Many LOVE it. Stop forcing down to us that DBZ is bad when obviously none of us here besides you think that. We think it's good. Saying we like DBZ because it's bad is an insult to me. I DON'T LIKE BAD THINGS. The things I like are Good, Awesome, and even Amazing. NEVER EVER Tell me I like a bad thing. The world is full of opinions that's what so bad and great about it. We're nothing alike. Go ahead and hate DBZ. Don't try and ruin in for us by saying it's "bad". When clearly we don't think so. If you don't like DBZ. Talk about DBGT or DB. Just please stop trying to convince people DBZ is bad. When it's your opinion. MY OPINION STATES THAT DBZ IS GOOD. . DBZ is not bad. Never was bad. Never WILL BE BAD. *RAGE MODE OVER*

Firstly, yes, there are a few users here who agree that DBZ is pretty bad, although I doubt they'd want me to call them out right now.

Secondly, I never said that the only reason anybody likes DBZ is because it's bad. People like DBZ for the fighting and/or nostalgia. Sure, there are a few people who look way too deeply into the series and delude themselves into thinking it has more depth than second-grade fanfiction, but most people only care about the fighting and nostalgia.

[TheGmGoken]

Firstly, yes, there are a few users here who agree that DBZ is pretty bad, although I doubt they'd want me to call them out right now.

And it still THEIR opinion. Since you don't call them out. I guess they don't shove it down our throats. As it's their opinion. Not fact.

Secondly, I never said that the only reason anybody likes DBZ is because it's bad. People like DBZ for the fighting and/or nostalgia. Sure, there are a few people who look way too deeply into the series and delude themselves into thinking it has more depth than second-grade fanfiction, but most people only care about the fighting and nostalgia.

You clearly said:
"So you want DBZ to be bad". I never said you said that "People like DBZ cause it bad". I went rage moment because you said that DBZ is bad as if it was fact. WHICH IS NOT. Every thought people don't look deeply into the plot and still like the plot? Like someone like myself? I can name 100 people in real life(Who NEVER watched DBZ before until recently) and internet friends(Who just got into DBZ ) who doesn't have nostalgia for the series and still think it's the GOAT Anime or think the plot is amazing. Sure people like it for fighting. The fights were AMAZING. ONE of the reason I like it is for fighting. It's an ACTION manga-Anime. I'm pretty sure the ACTION in an ACTION manga-anime should have great ACTION to bring the fans into the series. Did I mention DBZ has ACTION because it's an ACTION anime-manga(Also Adventure). YES people have nostalgia of DBZ. They also have Nostalgia of "Hey Arnold!" and "Toonami". What's your point? Everyone has nostalgia on a topic.

[thatdbzguy]

My point is that nostalgia often makes people think some things are better than they really are. If people honestly think DBZ is the GOAT, then they either haven't watched much anime/read much manga, or they have a nostalgia boner for it. It isn't even the best Dragon Ball.

[TheGmGoken]

My point is that nostalgia often makes people think some things are better than they really are. If people honestly think DBZ is the GOAT, then they either haven't watched much anime/read much manga, or they have a nostalgia boner for it. It isn't even the best Dragon Ball.

Considering the fact that many of my friends have seen more anime than myself who grew up with anime (thanks to bootleg dvds from my brother I've seen more than a lifetime worth of anime.....well apparently not). I their opinions are valid and backed up by facts. I also think think DBZ is one of the GOATs. I'm not even bias since DBZ isn't even in my top ten. DBZ not being the best DB is an OPINION. RandomGuy thinks DBZ is the best DB. You're saying that Random is wrong because your opinion is fact? Your point is valid yet at the same time invalid. Not everyone who thinks DBZ is GOAT have nostalgia for it. It's legit how they feel.

DBZ is one of the GOAT. Opinion. What you "thatdbzguy" say about DBZ isn't a FACT. It's an OPINION that you share vocally(Similar to wrestling fans). We've been through this on many threads and they always end up the same.

You start thread about DBZ not being good.
People who like DBZ give you reasons why they think it's good
You make it seem like your opinion is fact
More people come defend
Topic goes dead
You make a new topic which is slightly worded differently to complain about Dbz being bad.

When is this going to end? You already told me why your username is "ThatDbzGuy". But if you hate DBZ so much. Why have a DBZ picture? Why not GT? Why not DB? Why not something else?

Why not use this as your avatar?

Spoiler:

Mods/Admins if I'm going to far. Please warn me so I don't get banned.