Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, I mean these two entries from Daizenshuu. How [in]accurate are they? What context?

• "Not even a full power Goku can defeat Boo".
• "Goku always seeks out the strongest, and waited for Boo's reincarnation above all else."

They seem like generic statements about Goku's nature rather than specific power comparisons. The first jus says SS3 Goku can't beat Buu, which is true, he needed to concentrate a blast. The second is just again a statement on Goku's nature. If you really want to interpret it as Pure Buu being stronger than everyone else, then it's simply wrong.

Well, I don't think they intended to be super-specific too. But the first one seems to suggest the context Goku & Vegeta were talking about, rather than considering a full power concentrated blast, which is a consequence of being at full power. The second one I agree it's describing Son Goku's nature in the first part. The second part seems to suggest Boo was his goal, if Goku manage to reach or surpass that level he would have the title of "the current strongest", am I wrong?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

It's very clear: Goku's & Vegeta's plan was to free everyone that Boo had absorbed, to bring him to their level so that they can manage something. They free Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo, and even though they weakened him, they are still not match for him. But they are almost there. They free Mr. Boo, and Evil Boo eventually turns into Pure Boo. They did it, and now they can manage something. Even though Goku admits that they underestimated him because of his size, he still think he can kill him if he can charge a full power blast, but he didn't have time to do it.

So, it's very clear that SS3 Goku can't kill Evil Boo, but could have killed Pure Boo, making SS3 Goku weaker than Evil Boo. Since U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kick Evil Boo's ass, it means that they are stronger than SS3 Goku as well, and since it's implied that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks, it makes SS Gotenks far stronger than SS3 Goku as well, which fits with Goku's words that SS Gotenks would be a warrior stronger than him.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

Son Goku's reactions on strength of Super Boo, Kid Boo and even Buff Boo's power is quite clear. Son Goku (even Super Saiyan 3) cannot defeat Super Buu and his absorption forms individually and needed fusion to able to have chance to stand up to him. Then Super Boo became Buff Boo and his power is stated to have increased, and then into fearsome and terrifying Kid Boo, which their confident in their power to able to stand a change against.

Stand a chance against?? i think its pretty clear that Kid buu wiped the floor with SSj3 Goku and SSj2 Vegeta.

I didn't mention Super Saiya-jin 3 Son Goku nor Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta did I? It's all solely based on Son Goku and Vegeta's reactions to Majin Boo's metamorphosis and power to Buff Boo and then into Kid Boo is what I'm referring to.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

It's very clear: Goku's & Vegeta's plan was to free everyone that Boo had absorbed, to bring him to their level so that they can manage something. They free Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo, and even though they weakened him, they are still not match for him. But they are almost there. They free Mr. Boo, and Evil Boo eventually turns into Pure Boo. They did it, and now they can manage something. Even though Goku admits that they underestimated him because of his size, he still think he can kill him if he can charge a full power blast, but he didn't have time to do it.

So, it's very clear that SS3 Goku can't kill Evil Boo, but could have killed Pure Boo, making SS3 Goku weaker than Evil Boo. Since U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kick Evil Boo's ass, it means that they are stronger than SS3 Goku as well, and since it's implied that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks, it makes SS Gotenks far stronger than SS3 Goku as well, which fits with Goku's words that SS Gotenks would be a warrior stronger than him.

Vegeta underestimated him on his size like he did with Cell and Freeza. Goku clearly took his power seriously and knew from the beginning that he can defeat Pure Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think Goku said once that he did underestimate him, but he was still confident that he could beat him.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I think Goku said once that he did underestimate him, but he was still confident that he could beat him.

Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

That's the most we have of Goku underestimating Boo when really, all he is basically saying is that he overestimated the limitations of his living body as a SSJ3 which therefore gave Boo the advantage in their fight. Him crushing the potara was him showing off because he knew there was a way to beat him individually, but didn't plan on his living body screwing him over.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think Goku said once that he did underestimate him, but he was still confident that he could beat him.

Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

That's the most we have of Goku underestimating Boo when really, all he is basically saying is that he overestimated the limitations of his living body as a SSJ3 which therefore gave Boo the advantage in their fight. Him crushing the potara was him showing off because he knew there was a way to beat him individually, but didn't plan on his living body screwing him over.

Goku didn't crush the Potara; he gave his back. Vegeta crushed his.

I agree with everything else though; just felt like pointing that out

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I think Goku said once that he did underestimate him, but he was still confident that he could beat him.

Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

That's the most we have of Goku underestimating Boo when really, all he is basically saying is that he overestimated the limitations of his living body as a SSJ3 which therefore gave Boo the advantage in their fight. Him crushing the potara was him showing off because he knew there was a way to beat him individually, but didn't plan on his living body screwing him over.

Goku didn't crush the Potara; he gave his back. Vegeta crushed his.

I agree with everything else though; just felt like pointing that out

Really? I could have sword that Goku crushed his too. Can you show me the manga panel? I was probably picturing the animated version of that moment.

[Kamiccolo9]

Really? I could have sword that Goku crushed his too. Can you show me the manga panel? I was probably picturing the animated version of that moment.

I can't pull it up, but he takes it in his hand, looks at it, then holds his hand back out, saying "You can have it back." You can't actually see the earring, but I don't see Goku crushing it, and then going "here's your earring back!"

[hleV]

Goku only crushed the Potara back inside Boo, after Vegeta had done so.

[kuartus4]

and since it's implied that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks.......

How was this implied?

[Hugo Boss]

It's very clear: Goku's & Vegeta's plan was to free everyone that Boo had absorbed, to bring him to their level so that they can manage something. They free Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo, and even though they weakened him, they are still not match for him. But they are almost there. They free Mr. Boo, and Evil Boo eventually turns into Pure Boo. They did it, and now they can manage something. Even though Goku admits that they underestimated him because of his size, he still think he can kill him if he can charge a full power blast, but he didn't have time to do it.

Goku & Vegeta probably thought they could manage something judging by the size of Pure Boo's ki. It was like taking Fat Boo's power from Evil Boo's as they did with Gohan and the others. The problem I guess is that Pure Boo's strength was still in terms of development. At last, he is even stated in some guidebooks to be stronger than everyone else that was around in his time (obviously excluding Vegetto, Gohan-Boo and Gotenks-Boo, but what about Gohan? He was still around).

Goku thought he would probably kill Pure Boo with his full power, but he didn't have time to prove that. After Boo's defeat, he suggests training to defeat someone as strong as Boo and he even wonders if he would win or not in the 28th's tournament. Maybe Goku was comparing his full power to Pure Boo's full power?

So, it's very clear that SS3 Goku can't kill Evil Boo, but could have killed Pure Boo, making SS3 Goku weaker than Evil Boo. Since U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks could kick Evil Boo's ass, it means that they are stronger than SS3 Goku as well, and since it's implied that base Gotenks is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks, it makes SS Gotenks far stronger than SS3 Goku as well, which fits with Goku's words that SS Gotenks would be a warrior stronger than him.

I don't remember Goku saying SS Gotenks would be stronger than him, neither that regular Gotenks would be stronger than SS Goten/Trunks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The problem I guess is that Pure Boo's strength was still in terms of development.

When was that ever stated?

At last, he is even stated in some guidebooks to be stronger than everyone else that was around in his time (obviously excluding Vegetto, Gohan-Boo and Gotenks-Boo, but what about Gohan? He was still around).

Gohan was dead, and when he wasn't dead, he was on Earth, while Boo was in the Kaioshin Realm. He wasn't around, the only ones that were around are Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Boo, and Mr. Satan.

Goku thought he would probably kill Pure Boo with his full power

Not probably, both he & Vegeta were sure about it.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

After Boo's defeat, he suggests training to defeat someone as strong as Boo and he even wonders if he would win or not in the 28th's tournament.

Of course, since he wasn't able to beat Boo on his own, he required help from Vegeta so that he could gather energy.

I don't remember Goku saying SS Gotenks would be stronger than him

He told Fat Boo (or at least though he told him, because he never did ) that someone stronger than him would appear, and that was SS Gotenks.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).

Of course, Goku could have been lying, since he was hiding his true power and lied by saying that he couldn't beat Fat Boo, when he later revealed that he could have beaten him, but lied to give a chance to the kids. However, given to the fact that he never said that he was stronger than SS Gotenks, and with all the implications about Goten's & Trunks' power, along with the Fusion boost, it seems more than likely that SS Gotenks really is stronger than SS3 Goku, by a large margin.

neither that regular Gotenks would be stronger than SS Goten/Trunks.

Base Gotenks was confident that he could beat Boo, which implies that this is the biggest power he ever had up until that point. Toriyama even said that he wanted to create something stronger than Super Saiyan, and eventually came up with Fusion. The GT Perfect Files also stated that SS4 Gogeta was many dozens of times stronger than SS4 Goku or Vegeta on their own, and since I have no reason to assume that the Fusion multiplier changes between users or forms, it means that the Fusion is many dozens of times, and more than 50.

[Hugo Boss]

The problem I guess is that Pure Boo's strength was still in terms of development.

When was that ever stated?

My guesses only.

Gohan was dead, and when he wasn't dead, he was on Earth, while Boo was in the Kaioshin Realm. He wasn't around, the only ones that were around are Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Boo, and Mr. Satan.

Gohan was alive when Pure Boo was defeated.

Not probably, both he & Vegeta were sure about it.

I don't think in this case being sure is enough, Boo could be still supressing his true ability.

Of course, since he wasn't able to beat Boo on his own, he required help from Vegeta so that he could gather energy.

Yeah, but Goku promised to be much better and still wondered if he would win against some Earthling as strong as Pure Boo.

He told Fat Boo (or at least though he told him, because he never did ) that someone stronger than him would appear, and that was SS Gotenks.

Of course, Goku could have been lying, since he was hiding his true power and lied by saying that he couldn't beat Fat Boo, when he later revealed that he could have beaten him, but lied to give a chance to the kids. However, given to the fact that he never said that he was stronger than SS Gotenks, and with all the implications about Goten's & Trunks' power, along with the Fusion boost, it seems more than likely that SS Gotenks really is stronger than SS3 Goku, by a large margin.

The note seems to disregard what Goku said above though, but I understand it. Goku basically implied Fat Boo was not someone SS3 Goku could/should beat, but SS Gotenks would fight and win. The same guess I had in the first quote, Gotenks was still a character in development, maybe some hope/hype was necessary and the power scale was still dancing. Goku apparently didn't feel SS Gotenks' ki from Kaioshin Realm, it could be a hint that SS Gotenks' ki wasn't big enough to call their attention, despite Goku previously saying they were plenty enough to do the job. I'm making just assumptions.

Base Gotenks was confident that he could beat Boo, which implies that this is the biggest power he ever had up until that point. Toriyama even said that he wanted to create something stronger than Super Saiyan, and eventually came up with Fusion. The GT Perfect Files also stated that SS4 Gogeta was many dozens of times stronger than SS4 Goku or Vegeta on their own, and since I have no reason to assume that the Fusion multiplier changes between users or forms, it means that the Fusion is many dozens of times, and more than 50.

Gotenks has some traits of cockying attitude, I guess his power evaluation could be a "bit" exaggerated. About what Toriyama said, at first I thought something that surpass Super Saiyan in general, things-in-general comparations, not exactly Regular Fusion's boost > Super Saiyan(1)'s boost. I recall someone in Kanzenshuu commenting on "many tens of times" rather than "many dozens of times". Even so 50 is still in the range of many "tens" or "dozens", fusion's multiplier could be something higher or not.

[kuartus4]

Base Gotenks was confident that he could beat Boo, which implies that this is the biggest power he ever had up until that point.

I think Gotenk's confidence is just a gag. After all, to be truly confident, he would have to think that base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta since he saw Vegeta getting owned by Buu. Not only that, but he would also have to think that base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku since Goku admitted to Goten and Trunks that he could never beat Buu, a statement that for them was only reinforced since as far as they knew, SSJ3 Goku could only manage to stall Buu and not beat him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think Gotenk's confidence is just a gag. After all, to be truly confident, he would have to think that base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta since he saw Vegeta getting owned by Buu. Not only that, but he would also have to think that base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku since Goku admitted to Goten and Trunks that he could never beat Buu, a statement that for them was only reinforced since as far as they knew, SSJ3 Goku could only manage to stall Buu and not beat him.

Gotenks didn't compare himself with SS2 Vegeta, SS3 Goku, or Boo. He only thought "Look how strong I got, I'm invincible!", like Kuririn thought that Goku (after beating Reacoom & Butta) must be strong enough to beat Freeza, even though he knew how strong Freeza was.

And it's not only Gotenks' confidence, there is also base Gotenks being stronger than Piccolo (Piccolo couldn't stop him from running to Boo), Toriyama saying that he wanted something stronger than SS, and came up with Fusion, and SS4 Gogeta being dozens of times stronger than SS4 Goku & Vegeta on their own.


I would also like to ask you: How strong do you think Vegetto & Gogeta are?

[kuartus4]

Gotenks didn't compare himself with SS2 Vegeta, SS3 Goku, or Boo. He only thought "Look how strong I got, I'm invincible!", like Kuririn thought that Goku (after beating Reacoom & Butta) must be strong enough to beat Freeza, even though he knew how strong Freeza was.

And it's not only Gotenks' confidence, there is also base Gotenks being stronger than Piccolo (Piccolo couldn't stop him from running to Boo), Toriyama saying that he wanted something stronger than SS, and came up with Fusion, and SS4 Gogeta being dozens of times stronger than SS4 Goku & Vegeta on their own.


I would also like to ask you: How strong do you think Vegetto & Gogeta are?

I have SSJ3 Gogeta stronger than Mystic Gohan and around Gotenks-Buu. For Vegetto I just go with the SEG, Vegeta x Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's how strong I Believe Gogeta to be as well, though I disagree with the interpretation that SEG means "Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP". But that's a another topic for another day.

The reason I asked is because, I see many people that have no problem with Vegetto being stronger than Ultimate Gohan, or Gotenks Boo, or even Gohan Boo in base (I believe that he is stronger than Gohan Boo in base, but not strong enough to humiliate him), and they also have no problem to believe that Gogeta is as strong, or slightly weaker, than Vegetto, but they don't like having SS3 Gotenks, or even SS Gotenks, far above SS3 Goku. So, they overestimate Gogeta, and underestimate Gotenks at the same time, and for no reason.

Anyway, if you want to go purely by the manga, ignore the guides, and assume that Toriyama means SS + Fusion > SS, and then assume that base Gotenks is so confident because gag, but he is actually weaker than SS Goten/Trunks, then sure go ahead. But I disagree, because I don't go purely by the manga when I don't have to, and the interpretation of Toriyama meaning SS + Fusion > SS, and base Gotenks > SS Goten/Trunks just doesn't stick well to me. (BTW, I'm not a Gotenks or Gohan fanboy, I'm a Goku fanboy, so I'm not "haxxing" Gotenks & Gohan because I like them, I'm completely objective.)

[Hugo Boss]

Going by "Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return" 's manga, I would say regular Gotenks is perhaps stronger than Freeza, since Aka was able to fight back. Maybe this is what Goku had in his mind when he said Goten & Trunks would be fine.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Going by "Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return" 's manga, I would say regular Gotenks is perhaps stronger than Freeza, since Aka was able to fight back.

When did Aka fight back? All he did was getting his ass kicked.