Why didn't Mr. Popo take down Daimao?

[ABED]

Letting Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza go was beyond dumb and dangerous. He could easily beat one of them, MAYBE beat another (it was close and he won by surprise and luck the first team), and definitely couldn't beat the last. In all cases, he's risking them just nuking the planet from far away, which he would be helpless to stop.

It was a dumb thing to do, yes. But that's Goku's character, he likes to fight strong opponents.

He couldn't beat Vegeta, that was the point. Kuririn could've killed him, but Goku had been bested. He let Freeza go out of mercy (dumb, but not the point), and it wasn't about being able to easily defeat Piccolo, he wanted someone to push him, otherwise he felt he wouldn't push himself. Piccolo couldn't nuke the planet without killing himself, nor could Vegeta (despite what filler would have us believe).

Wibbs is right, he likes to fight strong opponents. He only would've intentionally let Buu out if he was going to fight him.

[GS7X7]

Goku's often pretty merciful, he usually doesn't like to kill people if it's not necessary. (mook warriors in movies aside)

[RandomGuy96]

Letting Vegeta, Piccolo, and Freeza go was beyond dumb and dangerous. He could easily beat one of them, MAYBE beat another (it was close and he won by surprise and luck the first team), and definitely couldn't beat the last. In all cases, he's risking them just nuking the planet from far away, which he would be helpless to stop.

It was a dumb thing to do, yes. But that's Goku's character, he likes to fight strong opponents.

He couldn't beat Vegeta, that was the point. Kuririn could've killed him, but Goku had been bested. He let Freeza go out of mercy (dumb, but not the point), and it wasn't about being able to easily defeat Piccolo, he wanted someone to push him, otherwise he felt he wouldn't push himself. Piccolo couldn't nuke the planet without killing himself, nor could Vegeta (despite what filler would have us believe).

Wibbs is right, he likes to fight strong opponents. He only would've intentionally let Buu out if he was going to fight him.

In each case, what he did was ridiculously dangerous and would have resulted in all of their deaths if not for dumb luck. So I'm not seeing how any of this is out of the ordinary for Goku.

[Fizzer]

Then what good is Kami? What does he actually do?

He answers prayers from people who desperately want their football team to win. That's it.

[Kid Buu]

I never see that point brought up. Why should he intervene? Because King Piccolo is his responsibility. He unleashed him on the world then did nothing and let the Earthlings die because he wanted a position of power, but none of the responsibility that came with it?

Kami's an asshole

[RandomGuy96]

Then what good is Kami? What does he actually do?

He answers prayers from people who desperately want their football team to win. That's it.

+1

[ABED]

I don't think it's just the Kami was first see, I don't think any of the former Kami's would've intervened. At least the Namekian eventually tries.

SS3 premiered only a few chapters after Goku and Vegeta stopped fighting. There's no freaking way Toriyama is THAT unprepared. You've done nothing to prove it was a retcon, you just keep making things up to defend Goku. Even if it was, that doesn't change what is written in the story. That was about 10 chapters later. That's at least 10 weeks, so it's not an insignificant amount of time between those two events.

Also, Goku tells Piccolo that even if he could've won that he shouldn't. Why lie? It's not like he was hiding anything from Piccolo, he already flat out told him that he shouldn't. You keep coming up with weak reasons to hate on Goku. While it doesn't change the story that was written, it does give a good reason why Goku's inconsistent. It's because the writer was being inconsistent.

The story and Toriyama by proxy intentionally and explicitly portrays Goku in this way, for no reason other than to characterize him.

Or it's just bad writing.

In each case, what he did was ridiculously dangerous and would have resulted in all of their deaths if not for dumb luck. So I'm not seeing how any of this is out of the ordinary for Goku.

Nope, Goku could defeat Piccolo and he was going to do his damnedest to win against Vegeta who couldn't fight back at that time. Goku at least had the advantage of being on Earth whereas Vegeta needed travel, get healed, and then travel back. Goku's also a very good fighter and with the knowledge of how strong Vegeta is, he has a good idea of what it would take to defeat him. Case in point, his gravity training increases his power far and above Vegeta's when he gets to Namek.

I'm not arguing he made great choices but it's not the same thing as he did with Buu. How is this the same? You have yet to answer that question. Goku always intended to fight those enemies. YOu don't answer that, and seemingly evade that because I don't think you have an answer.

[RandomGuy96]

Also, Goku tells Piccolo that even if he could've won that he shouldn't. Why lie? It's not like he was hiding anything from Piccolo, he already flat out told him that he shouldn't. You keep coming up with weak reasons to hate on Goku. While it doesn't change the story that was written, it does give a good reason why Goku's inconsistent. It's because the writer was being inconsistent.

He wasn't really lying, he was just dodging the question to make one option seem more preferable.

Or it's just bad writing.

If you think that, then it's unnecessary bad writing, because the story never required Goku to have SS3.

Nope, Goku could defeat Piccolo

Barley, after getting his guts blasted through his chest, and only avoided death thanks to a nearby senzu dispenser. He could still very well lose if Piccolo's training gains outstrip his (which they would have, if Raditz didn't arrive) or just takes him by surprise. Also, there's absolutely nothing Goku could do if Piccolo decided to just wipe out all life on the planet with one attack.

and he was going to do his damnedest to win against Vegeta who couldn't fight back at that time

He simply couldn't beat Vegeta, he won purely by dumb luck and help the last time. Without it, or hell, even with it, Vegeta kills them all.

Goku at least had the advantage of being on Earth whereas Vegeta needed travel, get healed, and then travel back

...and then nuke the planet from orbit. Like he was going to do until he heard Freeza was heading for Namek.

Goku's also a very good fighter and with the knowledge of how strong Vegeta is, he has a good idea of what it would take to defeat him. Case in point, his gravity training increases his power far and above Vegeta's when he gets to Namek.

He does that by abusing zenkais, and Vegeta does the same thing. He also didn't know about that at the time he spared Vegeta.

He knows what it takes to defeat him, so he should know they can't actually do it.

I'm not arguing he made great choices but it's not the same thing as he did with Buu. How is this the same? You have yet to answer that question. Goku always intended to fight those enemies. YOu don't answer that, and seemingly evade that because I don't think you have an answer.

I don't need an answer. I have Toriyama telling us "this is what Goku is like". YOU have nothing. I'm just pointing out that Goku being a selfish asshole who the universe bends to just so his dumb actions don't get everyone killed is nothing new.

[GS7X7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTj53SkJaes

Btw, Mr. Popo could have killed Freeza before he had time to transform.

[dbzfan7]

I'm with Randomguy like last time this debate came up.


I still don't get the whole "It's not my place even though I caused the problem"

[GS7X7]

I'm with Randomguy like last time this debate came up.


I still don't get the whole "It's not my place even though I caused the problem"

Plus he DID directly intervene later on....

What's interesting is that in the worst-case scenario if Goku lost, he was planning to have Ten kill him. It does suggest that suicide by his own hands is impossible for him.

[RandomGuy96]

You know, I haven't actually thought about this plot point much, but I'm surprised more people don't take issue to this. It doesn't seem like there's any real answer. Even if you seriously buy "Kami shouldn't/couldn't intervene in human affairs, even though the human affair in this case happens to be an evil genocidal demon he intentionally unleashed on them", there's no reason he should object, because he was willing to stop Junior later.

Best I can come up with: we don't know the exact timeline of Daimao's rampage, so it's possible that in both cases, he simply let Daimao go and rampage on Earth as a test for the humans. He wanted them to prove they were capable of handling this. So they did, in the form of Mutatio and Goku. If those two hadn't stopped Daimao, and he got too out of hand, Kami would have eventually stepped in. Later, however, after training Goku some, he realizes that Goku won't kill the new Piccolo Jr, who has a different personality and power than his father, and who Kami himself might be unable to handle in due time. So he sets out to make sure that this Piccolo is stopped before he gets too strong, as Goku obviously isn't going to finish him off.

But that still doesn't explain why he was willing to let others fight and possibly kill Daimao, as that could easily result in his own death. Did he want to commit suicide, as implied by him being PO'd that Goku wouldn't kill Piccolo? Why? It also paints Kami as a guy who would rather let millions die than get off his ass to do something, even if he could literally solve this problem with one sentence.

Man. Kami's an asshole.

[Kid Buu]

He also sided with the Androids with his "you provoked them" stitch even though the Androids admitted they wanted to kill Goku in cold blood.

[dbzfan7]

I'm with Randomguy like last time this debate came up.


I still don't get the whole "It's not my place even though I caused the problem"

Plus he DID directly intervene later on....

What's interesting is that in the worst-case scenario if Goku lost, he was planning to have Ten kill him. It does suggest that suicide by his own hands is impossible for him.

Yeah, way later than he should have. Like the others have said Kami is an asshole.

[Saiga]

While I agree that Goku's actions in the Boo arc are extremely irresponsible, I definitely don't think Super Saiyan 3 was planned ahead. Everything up until that point indicates otherwise, with him stating that Super Saiyan 2 is his full power, and that he's not any stronger than Vegeta, etc. It's an extremely obvious retcon.

[Kid Buu]

Majin Vegeta battle was Chapter 264.
Super Saiyan 3 was Chapter 280

So he had 4 months to think up of SSJ3.

[Bullza]

It's just really bad storytelling is why.

[ABED]

If you think that, then it's unnecessary bad writing, because the story never required Goku to have SS3.

Is there such thing as NECCESSARY bad writing? Was it necessary for Popo to be that much stronger than Goku when we first meet him?

How the hell does Vegeta nuke the planet from orbit without killing himself?

He does that by abusing zenkais, and Vegeta does the same thing. He also didn't know about that at the time he spared Vegeta.

He knows what it takes to defeat him, so he should know they can't actually do it.

Regardless of the method, Goku can get stronger than Vegeta, in fact he does. That last sentence is absurd, he does know he can do it, and does by the time he gets to Namek. I don't get it, do you just completely disregard the story and find every reason you can to hate on Goku? Where did you get the absurd notion that Goku knows he could never beat him when we SEE Goku has enough power to defeat him by the time he gets to Namek? This isn't fun anymore, you just keep evading.

While I agree that Goku's actions in the Boo arc are extremely irresponsible, I definitely don't think Super Saiyan 3 was planned ahead. Everything up until that point indicates otherwise, with him stating that Super Saiyan 2 is his full power, and that he's not any stronger than Vegeta, etc. It's an extremely obvious retcon.

Thank you.

Back on topic, while I can't remember anything specific, I feel like the "it's not my place to step in" rationale is used often in many stories other than Dragon Ball. It rarely if ever comes off as anything other than a cop out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Was it necessary for Popo to be that much stronger than Goku when we first meet him?

Yes, it taught to Goku that there are more than 1 guys stronger than him.

As for the retcon, it may had been a retcon in Toriyama's mind, but in-universe, Goku was lying the whole time because he didn't want to reveal Super Saiyan 3. Same about later, when he admits that he could have beaten Innocent Boo if he wanted to do so, but lied that he couldn't have beaten him. So it doesn't matter if it was a retcon or not in the In-Universe Discussion forum. He lied to give himself a challenging fight with Vegeta & didn't want to waste his time on the Living World, and he lied to give the kids a chance to save the Earth, so that they can grow stronger through that situation, and they would be able to defend the Earth again in the future if a stronger enemy was to appear.

[Kid Buu]

Was it necessary for Popo to be that much stronger than Goku when we first meet him?

Yes, it taught to Goku that there are more than 1 guys stronger than him.

As for the retcon, it may had been a retcon in Toriyama's mind, but in-universe, Goku was lying the whole time because he didn't want to reveal Super Saiyan 3. Same about later, when he admits that he could have beaten Innocent Boo if he wanted to do so, but lied that he couldn't have beaten him. So it doesn't matter if it was a retcon or not in the In-Universe Discussion forum.

See, this is what I dont understand. Why did Toriyama bother to add the retcon? If you remove that line, all it does is make Pure Buu appear weaker than Fat Buu. That's it.