Bardock TV Special vs Dragon Ball Minus

[MagicBox]

As a standalone piece of storytelling, I prefer the TV special. Great music, Nozawa knocks it out of the park, the tone is perfect, tons of awesome set pieces, the whole package. As I mentioned in the Jaco thread (and elsewhere), I adore this special.

But as something that actually connects to the larger Dragon Ball story, I prefer Minus despite its cheesy dialogue, undeveloped characters, and overall Superman vibe. It's a strange feeling to prefer something that I have so many nitpicks about, but there are a lot of things that I enjoy about Minus as well. Unlike many people, I don't feel that having Burdock actually care about someone ruins his entire character. He's still a ruthless warrior and a dick to the other Saiyans. And, to me, Minus' version of the Saiyan backstory and Goku's departure makes more sense.

This is one thing that always annoyed me about the Bardock TV Special, why didn't Toei just come out and say it openly "yes that woman in Bardock's squad was the mother of Goku and Raditz"? Why even have a woman on that team unless she was Bardock's wife/girlfriend? What was the point?

I know, right? Why even put a woman in this series unless she's pleasuring our protagonist and popping out babies?

Surely you understand how silly that sounds. As a side note, I never understood the attention Sleypa gets. Even if Toei had confirmed her to be Goku's mother, that wouldn't have magically given her a personality.

[B]

Enough already! Give us info on something new. Like Freeza's family history.

Please, no. If it's just guidebook tidbits about Freeza's species, I suppose I can get behind that, but actual backstory? The only person I want to see less than Goku's mother is Freeza's mother.

Quite frankly, I'm just sick of that portion of the story and Saiyan focus. Saiyan history is in and of itself so uninteresting, I kind of have to applaud Minus for just barely being a story.

[Kid Buu]

I never understood the attention Sleypa gets. Even if Toei had confirmed her to be Goku's mother, that wouldn't have magically given her a personality.

Same reason #18 is so popular despite having no personality: hot girl.

[TheGmGoken]

I never understood the attention Sleypa gets. Even if Toei had confirmed her to be Goku's mother, that wouldn't have magically given her a personality.

Same reason #18 is so popular despite having no personality: hot girl.

Funny the females with personality are hated. Also 18 might be popular for kicking Vegeta ass

[RandomGuy96]

Enough already! Give us info on something new. Like Freeza's family history.

Please, no. If it's just guidebook tidbits about Freeza's species, I suppose I can get behind that, but actual backstory? The only person I want to see less than Goku's mother is Freeza's mother.

Quite frankly, I'm just sick of that portion of the story and Saiyan focus. Saiyan history is in and of itself so uninteresting, I kind of have to applaud Minus for just barely being a story.

I disagree. I'd like to see why Freeza... well, why Freeza is Freeza at all. Why is he so ridiculously strong? Why does his father not resemble him at all? Why do we never see any other examples of this species other than Freeza, Cold, Cooler, Kuriza, and Chilled? What happened to them? How did they found this organization? It bothers me that everything about his clan was left so cryptic, yet we keep getting piles and piles of boring saiyan backstory.

[Luso Saiyan]

This is one thing that always annoyed me about the Bardock TV Special, why didn't Toei just come out and say it openly "yes that woman in Bardock's squad was the mother of Goku and Raditz"? Why even have a woman on that team unless she was Bardock's wife/girlfriend? What was the point?

I know, right? Why even put a woman in this series unless she's pleasuring our protagonist and popping out babies?

Surely you understand how silly that sounds. As a side note, I never understood the attention Sleypa gets. Even if Toei had confirmed her to be Goku's mother, that wouldn't have magically given her a personality.

I was going to say the same thing. Not to mention that making her Goku's mother sounds like cheap fanfiction...

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah. You beat me to it, MagicBox. I never have understood why so many people seem to insist Selypa must be Goku's mother, but, yeah, this proves it. It's only because she's the only female within 100 miles, so, therefore, that must be her role. But I don't really have anything to say that MagicBox didn't already say better. It just flabbergasted me.

[Flame Dragon]

I don't care what anybody says... DB- is not canon for me, except for Kid Raditz and Gine looks, everything else is not canon. It's just so bad, that it made me for the first time wish for Toriyama retirement.

[The Monkey King]

For me FoG is superiour to DB- by far.
I wouldn't be suprised if Toriyama himself would agree.
Didn't he think Toei's version of History of Trunks was better?

[Luso Saiyan]

Didn't he think Toei's version of History of Trunks was better?

I don't recall anything about that.

[RocktheDragon]

Father of Goku is head and shoulders above Dragon Ball Minus. From the story, to the themes covered, to the way that they connect to the larger DB universe.

I've made my feelings known over and over again already, so I'll just say that Minus has really irked me because it covered something that I feel has already been done well. Why give us an inferior product of something better? It's like Coke coming up with "New Coke" for no apparent reason but to mess up their brand (even keeping in mind Coke conspiracy theories).

[Kamiccolo9]

For me FoG is superiour to DB- by far.
I wouldn't be suprised if Toriyama himself would agree.
Didn't he think Toei's version of History of Trunks was better?

I definitely did.

I think that, as far as I'm concerned, Minus is going into the forgotten and ignored bin. Not a fan at all.

[auspx]

Why even put a woman in this series unless she's pleasuring our protagonist and popping out babies?

You just described ChiChi after the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

What personality did ChiChi have after she became Goku's wife? Why didn't ChiChi join the Z-warriors? Before DBZ she was one of the best female martial artists in the world. Why didn't she go with Gohan to Planet Namek? Who knows how strong she might have become if the Namekian Great Elder unlocked her hidden power. None of this happened because AT decided to make ChiChi an overprotective mother/housewife.

RE: Bardock and Seripa being Goku's parents sounds like cheap fan fiction.
I don't think so. First of all it would be completely in character for both of them. What makes more sense? That Bardock would be interested in a weak, useless woman or in a strong woman who is a fighter? And she was the only woman in Bardock's team. The other problem with DB Minus and Gine is the idea that Bardock "loves her". Bardock is a cold blooded barbarian. Can you really imagine him falling in love with anyone? Of course not, he just wanted to have sex and produce offspring. And that's how Raditz and Goku were conceived.

Goku's mother being a gentle woman who failed at being a warrior, had to be rescued all the time in battle, and in the end was sent to work in a butcher shop is what sounds like cheap fan fiction. No proud male saiyan warrior would want to have children with a woman like that. It's not too far fetched to imagine that any saiyan who failed at being a warrior would be treated like trash in their society, maybe sent into exile, or maybe even executed by King Vegeta. Gine is basically a human in a saiyan costume. That's all she is. Like someone said earlier, it would have made more sense for Goku's mother to be a "broodmare" whose only purpose in life was to produce children.

[Luso Saiyan]

First of all it would be completely in character for both of them.

How? Her character was barely developed at all.

And she was the only woman in Bardock's team.

Therefore she needs to be Bardock's wife? Why can't she just be what she actually is (a female saiyan warrior of Bardock's team)?

[auspx]

First of all it would be completely in character for both of them.

How? Her character was barely developed at all.

And she was the only woman in Bardock's team.

Therefore she needs to be Bardock's wife? Why can't she just be what she actually is (a female saiyan warrior of Bardock's team)?

You are looking at these characters as if they are "humans in alien costumes". But they are not human. They don't have the same mentality that human beings have. AT said it himself, saiyan men and women only form relationships to produce offspring. They are very much like animals. And it makes perfect sense for Bardock to be attracted to a strong saiyan woman who is a fighter, just like it makes sense for Seripa to be attracted to Bardock. He was the leader of their team and the strongest man there. As for them being a real couple, they probably didn't have anything like that in their society. To put it bluntly, saiyan men and women only have sex to produce offspring... just like animals. There's no "love" or "romance" going on there. This is why Gine is a ridiculous character and her "romance" with Bardock looks like bad fan fiction.

[B]

Why even put a woman in this series unless she's pleasuring our protagonist and popping out babies?

You just described ChiChi after the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

He was being facetious and making fun of you for your insane views on women.

[coola]

Dragon Ball Minus, in my opinion, is like information, that Tenshinhan is descendant of three-eyed aliens, and my reaction for both "revelations" is "la la la la I can't hear you " Seriously, it`s like Star Wars New Trilogy, why you need to explain a past, messing up with continuity, for me, Goku always will be son of low-class warrior, who, thanks to training and determination, become strongest. And Bardock is fine in Bardock Special, thank you.

[auspx]

Why even put a woman in this series unless she's pleasuring our protagonist and popping out babies?

You just described ChiChi after the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

He was being facetious and making fun of you for your insane views on women.

We aren't talking about human beings. We are talking about men and women from a barbaric, alien, warrior race. They do not think or behave like human beings. That was the whole point of the Saiyan Saga. The revelation that Goku comes from a tribe of alien savages but unlike them he is a good person... that was the point. What AT has said in the recent interview confirms this.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -super-qa/

"Normally, Saiyans don’t have much of a notion of romance or marriage, and apart from the royal family of Vegeta, they aren’t particular about blood-relationships.

Being in among all that, I suppose you could say that the pair of Bardock and Gine were those rare Saiyans who were joined by a bond other than for reproductive purposes."

"Saiyans don’t have much of a concept of “family”."

"On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions."

Do you really think it's "insane" that characters who aren't human aren't going to behave like humans?

[garnetjester]

I don't think anyone is disputing your point about saiyans being primal beings who didn't bond much or whatever, what some people are responding to is your view that there shouldn't be a female character in DBZ unless she's there to produce children. Whether that principle applies to DBZ or not is besides the point, what people are pointing out is that female characters can also be written to have the same goals and purposes as male characters, which in Selipa's case would be being a saiyan warrior.

And yeah, it sounds over romatic and fanfiction-like for Bardock and Gine to bond, (and personally, I'm not sure I like it, I don't want Goku to be a ~special snowflake~) but you seriously can't expect an entire race to behave exactly the same, that's not very plausible.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I can't really fully judge it until I get to read Minus for myself (which likely won't be until that Jaco collected volume comes out, if not quite a while after that), but just going off what I do know...I'm kind of in the middle.

I love the Bardock special. I can see why a lot of people take their love for the character too far and kind of romanticize his character a little too much. He's just a really cool character that, despite looking a lot like Goku, still is striking enough on his own. And while portions of the story's special - such as Bardock's new psychic powers, the non-violent-seeming baby Goku, lack of Raditz, etc. - aren't as good as I'd like them to be, it's still just a really good watch. And as I said in another thread, it's the version of the story that we've had pretty much un-contested - nay, even complimented by Toriyama - for 20-ish years. It's no wonder anything different would be so jarring to a lot of people.

That said though, a lot of what people are having problems with in Minus, I'm not really seeing (though again, need to read it for myself to judge fully). I don't mind meeting Goku's mother at long last, or that she's a less violent Saiyan than most. It fits with the 'unexpected' vibe that Toriyama likes to throw out a lot, much like Table as Vegeta's brother did. I'm a little unsure how to feel about his Bardock whom seems different from the version we've had before, but at the same time...I just don't have a problem with there being Saiyans that don't fit the norm, as the more I think about it, the sillier it seems that an entire race would be bloodthirsty. I also don't mind that both of Goku's parents may have been less violent (though from what I understand Bardock still goes out and conquers planets, so he's not exactly innocent...) than the norm, because that still doesn't invalidate Goku's own nature coming more from the head trauma. It edges pretty close to messing with that, especially with portraying him as much less feral of a child than we previously thought, but it could still fit as it stands now.

The thing that I'm having an issue with is Freeza somehow knowing about the Super Saiyan God. Shenron being able to talk about it is one thing, he's a wish-granting being - for all we know he knows EVERYTHING. But Freeza knowing it seems...odd. I mean, where would he likely have learned it from? My money's on a Saiyan. If a Saiyan, any Saiyan, knew about it, then surely Vegeta would have heard about it, even if he scoffed it off as some 'stupid rumor' compared to the Super Saiyan legend. But Vegeta knew absolutely nothing about it. That makes it very, very odd to me that Freeza knew about it.

Just going off what little I know of Minus compared to how much I like the old TV special...right now I'd say I still favor the special, but I think I'll like Minus for what it is.