How good are DBZ characters at martial arts?

[White Oni]

And like I said, I completely disagree with that definition for him. He can do stuff beyond any peak human. Heck, he can basically run twice as fast as the fastest human ever in record, like I demonstrated. It really doesn't matter how fit or how "peak" a normal human is, he or she will never be able to do what Captain America is able to do.

Usain Bolt, the fastest human on record already has pretty much the perfect human body for running and an even more perfect body than his would amount to only marginally differences, like the differences between Usain Bolt and his competitors. However, Captain America completely eclipses Usain Bolt by running pretty much twice as fast as him. That is way more difference than is possible for any normal or peak human. Therefore, he is beyond that, he is just not in same class as actual superhumans. Like I said, he is kind of in the border between humans and superhumans.

Also, having the perfect human body wouldn't make a human being be able to survive being frozen in ice for decades. Surviving that is not a matter of resistance. The body would have to be different from a normal human one.

By the way, compare Buffy to Captain America. Buffy is always stated as being beyond human in terms of her abilities. However, comparing her feats in terms of abilities with Captain America, Captain America seems more impressive than her. And yet she is beyond human and Captain America is peak human? Yeah, no. Can't agree with that. Peak human is a definition that doesn't fit him.

Being classified as peak human has always been just a way for the reader to relate to him and believe that he is not actually beyond human, that a human could possibly be as impressive as him and kind of forget that he is only that impressive in terms of his abilities because of drugs. But what the reader actually sees of him tells something else.

Peak human conditioning also relies on the condition of that universes humans. It is more than likely that the humans of Captain America's universe are much better than our own. Batman's too. In Dragon Ball a Peak Human would probably be capable of some amazing feats.

...Iono... Batman refers to Bruce lee and usain bolt as if they're the fastest in their respective professions... Seems like their peaks are the same.

[rereboy]

I always saw it as Cap is the absolute best a human could possibly be without being classified as a separate species. Not that you (general you) could possibly train yourself up to his level, but that he's still an H. sapiens, unlike the X-men style mutants (H. superior) or the guys like Spider-Man and the FF who're mutants from radioactivity.

In general I agree with this view, which is why I say he isn't actually superhuman. However, I also don't agree with the term peak human being applied to him for the reasons I stated. In my opinion, he is clearly an artificially enhanced human. He's still human, but he has been artificially improved to go beyond normal human limits.

The term peak human, in my opinion, should be reserved to guys like Batman who achieve the very top of physical abilities as humans can naturally go, but don't go beyond that.

Peak human conditioning also relies on the condition of that universes humans. It is more than likely that the humans of Captain America's universe are much better than our own. Batman's too. In Dragon Ball a Peak Human would probably be capable of some amazing feats.

Its clear that those universes are firmly based on our own reality, unlike Dragon Ball's universe. There's absolutely no reason to assume that the average physical human ability of humans in those universes would be significantly different from the real world, besides serving as back up for your argument.

[TheGmGoken]

Question. Oob learning to fight as he fights and even Boo mimick abilities. Could they mimic Batman, Captain America, Shang Chi, Lady Shiva, Broze Tiger, Ra Al Ghuh, Iron Fist, and Moon Knight fighting styles

[RandomGuy96]

Again with the Kratos wank...

Anyway, as has been pointed out, even taking away his high ki level and decreasing it to that of a regular human, Goku's ki abilities ARE martial arts. While he wouldn't be able to blow up stars with them, he should still be able to throw ki attacks, including Kienzans. He should still be able to fly, teleport, make barriers, et cetera. But even if you then take THOSE away from him, well, he's still a saiyan. Saiyans are physically strong enough to tank bullets as children without any ki defense, so I doubt, say, Batman, would have much of a chance, at least realistically.

If you took away Goku's powers plus his ki martial arts plus his racial abilities, then yeah, obviously Batman would win, as I doubt Goku has any meaningful training in regular, mundane hand to hand fighting like Batman does. But at that point it's just not really fair.

More importantly, if Goku and Batman were to fight each other without any superhuman powers given to the former at all, well... remember that Goku is average sized and fairly lean, at 5'9, 137 pounds. Batman, on the other hand, is tall and buff, with an official height of 6'2 and an official weight of 210 pounds. That's several weight classes apart. There's a reason we have those, you know.

I was assuming we were averaging size as well since its supposed to be just about skill. Though that does remind me...Where do they get these weights from?! Batman's isn't to bad though sometimes they draw him like a tank and he looks a lot bigger. But going by most weight by height charts that I've seen Goku is under weight and even when he isn't bulked up from powering up he still usually has a decent build. Are Saiyans made of helium or something?

Batman's height is given in numerous official handbooks. I'm pretty sure they may have also given him a weight in a comic somewhere, but there are so many so fuck checking.

Goku's weight comes from the SEG character guide. Aside from that, the only weights we get are from the anime (Android 19 reads Yamcha at 6'0 and 150 pounds) and an off-hand guess from a character in the manga (Dr. Briefs guesses Vegeta's weight at 60 kilograms, while the SEG lists him at 56 kilograms).

137 pounds at 5 ft 9 in isn't underweight. It's definitely skinny, but it's still within the healthy range for his height. I'll admit that a lot of the weights given are weird though, as the series has never been good at math. For example, the supposedly massively obese Yajirobe is 5'5, 172 pounds. That's overweight, but it's not at all "fat".

The term peak human, in my opinion, should be reserved to guys like Batman who achieve the very top of physical abilities as humans can naturally go, but don't go beyond that.

Peak humans can bench press over a thousand pounds with that build, make a fifteen feet vertical jump, switch teacups in the time it takes someone to blink, and kick trees in half?

[dario03]

Again with the Kratos wank...

Anyway, as has been pointed out, even taking away his high ki level and decreasing it to that of a regular human, Goku's ki abilities ARE martial arts. While he wouldn't be able to blow up stars with them, he should still be able to throw ki attacks, including Kienzans. He should still be able to fly, teleport, make barriers, et cetera. But even if you then take THOSE away from him, well, he's still a saiyan. Saiyans are physically strong enough to tank bullets as children without any ki defense, so I doubt, say, Batman, would have much of a chance, at least realistically.

If you took away Goku's powers plus his ki martial arts plus his racial abilities, then yeah, obviously Batman would win, as I doubt Goku has any meaningful training in regular, mundane hand to hand fighting like Batman does. But at that point it's just not really fair.

More importantly, if Goku and Batman were to fight each other without any superhuman powers given to the former at all, well... remember that Goku is average sized and fairly lean, at 5'9, 137 pounds. Batman, on the other hand, is tall and buff, with an official height of 6'2 and an official weight of 210 pounds. That's several weight classes apart. There's a reason we have those, you know.

I was assuming we were averaging size as well since its supposed to be just about skill. Though that does remind me...Where do they get these weights from?! Batman's isn't to bad though sometimes they draw him like a tank and he looks a lot bigger. But going by most weight by height charts that I've seen Goku is under weight and even when he isn't bulked up from powering up he still usually has a decent build. Are Saiyans made of helium or something?

Batman's height is given in numerous official handbooks. I'm pretty sure they may have also given him a weight in a comic somewhere, but there are so many so fuck checking.

Goku's weight comes from the SEG character guide. Aside from that, the only weights we get are from the anime (Android 19 reads Yamcha at 6'0 and 150 pounds) and an off-hand guess from a character in the manga (Dr. Briefs guesses Vegeta's weight at 60 kilograms, while the SEG lists him at 56 kilograms).

137 pounds at 5 ft 9 in isn't underweight. It's definitely skinny, but it's still within the healthy range for his height. I'll admit that a lot of the weights given are weird though, as the series has never been good at math. For example, the supposedly massively obese Yajirobe is 5'5, 172 pounds. It's overweight, but not really "fat".

The term peak human, in my opinion, should be reserved to guys like Batman who achieve the very top of physical abilities as humans can naturally go, but don't go beyond that.

Peak humans can bench press over a thousand pounds with that build, make a fifteen feet vertical jump, switch teacups in the time it takes someone to blink, and kick trees in half?

Yeah I know where the weights come from, I was referring to the weird part about the actual weights like the Yajirobe example. Like sure there are people that are 5'9" and weigh what Goku does, heck I know a guy that is 6'4" and weighs what Goku does but theres no way Goku would weigh that with his build (assuming we were making him human or if Saiyans had similar weight to humans)(and also going by Saiyan saga and later since IIRC he seemed to be drawn with less definition in end of DB). Seems like a lot of fictions list weird weights for some reason. I still remember looking at the Street Fighter 2 manual years ago and wondering how the weights it listed were possible, M. Bison at 6'0" 176lbs, Zangief 7'0" 256lbs. Those guys were built like tanks, and easily looked to be at least 1.5x that weight.

[rereboy]

Peak humans can bench press over a thousand pounds with that build, make a fifteen feet vertical jump, switch teacups in the time it takes someone to blink, and kick trees in half?

None or almost none of those are out of the realm of possibility for a human to do. But, more importantly than that, Batman is consistently written as a very fit human who relies first on his intellect and gadgets and only then on his physique to punish evil, with only sporadic moments where the writers might exaggerate his physical abilities if we look at it from a extremely realistic point of view and even considering stuff like his build like you are doing. He's not really supposed to be that much stronger or faster than any normal human and that idea is constantly transmitted to the reader in everything he does.

Captain America however is written as a super-soldier who relies mainly on his enhanced physical abilities to do what he does. Every time he appears he is constantly showing that he is supposed to be very significantly stronger and faster than any normal human and that idea is constantly transmitted to the reader. Also, his physical feats are more consistent and impressive than Batman's, and some are definitely out of the realm of possibility for a human (like running twice as fast as the fastest human on record, or surviving decades frozen).

That's why the characters are fundamentally different in that regard and why the term peak human applies to Batman but not really to Captain America, IMO.

[Bullza]

Why is this discussion still going on, Batman is an ordinary human at the peak of his capabilities and possibly a bit more so due to it being a comic and Captain America is on the verge of superhuman.

In the context of the thread and everyone being equal it wouldn't really matter what the difference between the two is.