Goku's Feats

[White Oni]

Not how I see it.

There is no time when goku isn't at point A or B. He goes directly from A to B. Like I said before, there is that time when he's preparing and thinking about teleporting, but as soon as that's done, once he's will to activate IT, he's no long at A, he's at B.

At least that's how I see it.

From my understanding, this interpretation doesn't commit any paradoxes like being in 2 different places at once.

Even if you see it like that or I do, it does not matter. Let's go the way you do for one moment.

- Time when Goku exists at Point A for the last time
- No Time via Instant Transmission
- Time when Goku exists on Point B for the first time.

Teleportation is an action with multiple moments. Whether it is perfect or not. An action with multiple moments uses actively flowing time as those moments are not just one but, as said, multiple. A moment in its shortest time cannot be measured, of course but there is always time. Goku's teleportation has no ignore time effect as vanishing and reappearing can't happen both at time 0 but, if anything at time 0 and time 0,00000000... you know what I mean. I am moving my finger 10 times within a second (if you say I can move my finger 10 times in one moment and say a moment is a second) but each single action, each single point where my finger is has its own little moment (as a moment very well can be defined way shorter than a second and technically the points where the finger is are not really related t that at the same time, if you know what I mean - the second is not the shortest possible moment and physically can very well be defined way shorter to an immeasurably short difference of time between action start and action done or action 1 and action 2) and is not at the same time. When you say no time passes then it automatically means he is on both places at once which he isn't. Also, we have seen Goku's teleport has a delay so I guess that is really unnecessary to discuss.

And technically those stories where you move in a place where no time exists at all don't work exactly because of that. You moving is a direct result of multiple moments, so time passing. Even if somehow you can "ignore the time around you" you are moving and so at least bring some kind of "own time" with you. If time is completely frozen for you as well you should not be able to move at all because moving or any action costs time. Maybe there are powers higher than those laws, such as God who is omnipotent and so can do whatever he wants no matter how paradox it is for us, but there is no reason to believe Goku is and as we can see, he did more than one action and also seemed to have a delay. And well - the delay would be there even if the manga shows us everything in slow motion which it most of the time in battle does or if it would not show us that in slow motion (which means, we couldn't even notice anything about it but as we know not only what we notice exists).

Warning: this is about to go way off topic.

It depends on how you view the causation of IT.

If you think the causation exists prior to the event, then there will ALWAYS be a given amount of time in the event history. Because there has to be at least 1 moment, as you're saying.(Your writing is quite rational and you know quite a lot on this matter is seems)

However, it seems we're misunderstanding each other on a more fundamental level, that changes everything.

I don't think there's prior causation in this case, I see Goku's IT as a simultaneous causation event. That is to say, the very same moment he wills to IT, he reaches point B.

To clarify.

Under your interpretation of how IT works, time works like this.

Moment 1: Goku at point a, causes IT.
Moment 2: IT event finishes and goku's at point B

Under my interpretation:

Moment 1: Goku at point a
Moment 2: Goku causes IT and reaches point B.

Notice that even under my interpretation, The single moment difference between when Goku was at point a and point B is STILL a lapse of time, something I never argued against.(at least not intentionally) HOWEVER, the point I was making still stands, IT does not occur over a lapse of time, as its cause and effect are simultaneous.

[Cetra]

I really think what you think and what I think would not make a difference. Especially because, even though you say "moment 2 = Teleport, reach point B", the "I stand at point A" moment still has to be considered and as you already understood, those are at least two different moments. What you did with the two moments was rearranging them but in the end both moments are important for the whole action as the "I stand here first" moment is a required and important part of the event chain, so even if you put the IT in moment 2, moment 1 may not be ignored as the whole thing cannot be ignored and with it either. I guess you just understand teleporting a bit differently for me because the requirements and result are as important as the action is. Existence at point A- Dematerializing - Existence ends at point A - Materializing - Existence starts at point B.

Also thank you for the compliment.

[White Oni]

I really think what you think and what I think would not make a difference. Especially because, even though you say "moment 2 = Teleport, reach point B", the "I stand at point A" moment still has to be considered and as you already understood, those are at least two different moments. What you did with the two moments was rearranging them but in the end both moments are important for the whole action as the "I stand here first" moment is a required and important part of the event chain.

Also thank you for the compliment.

Well I mean, there is a significant different between the 2 interpretations I discussed. Because on the first interpretation of IT, the one I think you take to, IT IS a 2 moment occurrence, and thus, takes time.

On my interpretation, IT is a single moment occurrence and thus takes no time.

Yes, it can be noted that even on my interpretation, there exists a moment before it, where Goku's at point a, BUT that can be said about any event, except maybe the big bang, and it in no way implies that the moment before it is somehow PART of the event. As it's clearly not, on my interpretation.

And if you're going to hold the moment before my interpretation's IT, to me, then I could hold the moment before yours to you as well and state that yours is a 3 moment technique, when it clearly isn't.

There is a significant difference between the 2 interpretations, just not one anywhere near significant enough to this specific discussion. This is because, as you've said, even under your interpretation, the exchange of moments is a lapse of time, but not one anywhere near something humans can measure or even begin to comprehend.

[Cetra]

Well I mean, there is a significant different between the 2 interpretations I discussed. Because on the first interpretation of IT, the one I think you take to, IT IS a 2 moment occurrence, and thus, takes time.

The thing you don't understand here is that IT is an action with requirements and results so if ITs requirement is to "exist somewhere" and "to be able to teleport" and the action of teleporting is "using it and vanishing" and "appearing" and "ceasing to exist somewhere" as well as "beginning to exist somehwhere" being the results of that. You can't just ignore parts of it and unlike your example of me having an even even prior to the existence at point A, the existence at point A is actually the only important thing for the beginning. Technically you can define the first moment as being as long as you want, that does not matter. But existing at one point is important and is part of what is necessary for IT/general teleportation. The core of what we said is very well the same because it had mentioned at least two moments, the important actions and a difference in time, the problem you "cause" (not insulting) with you placing "starts IT and appears" is that you ignore half of what is important because the requirement of existing before somewhere (thing)just is important for the chain as well as the vanishing is important (different thing) as well as the result of stopping to exist there (different thing) as well as appearing (different thing) as well as starting to exist somewhere else (different thing). If you put IT and him appearing again and starting to exist there on one and the same point then you have a very generalized moment that still can be seperated into more moments as "starting IT" will result in 1. vanishing at A (and if he starts Instant Transmission he still is at point A because starting to vanish from point A requires him to stand there in the first place so that is no matter how we define it, a fact that is important and needs to be considered) - (ceasing)- and 2. appearing at point B making it impossible for Instant Transmission in detail to be only one moment, even if you say "Goku starts IT", because when he did, point A definitely was involved no matter if "he still existed there" or "in that moment vanished there". It is axiomatic that this is important and part of one thing (action: Teleport) while not being one and the same (but sub-actions of the greater action) but necessary to consider. That is undeniably important and we can't do anything about it, no matter what we say.

This is getting too complicated, I guess and off-topic as you say. If you want, send me a PM but otherwise I guess we are done because it is possible that this discussion will lead to nowhere and I assume we both don't want that. That said, I actually had fun with this conversation (as weird as this might sound).

EDIT: Meh, why are you replying instead of just writing a PM. Again you don't seem to undestand that those are more actions and so more moments and all of them are important - and they are, that is as mentioned axiomatic. It really is the best to just leave it like that and not to discuss any further. But again, it was fun.

[White Oni]

Well I mean, there is a significant different between the 2 interpretations I discussed. Because on the first interpretation of IT, the one I think you take to, IT IS a 2 moment occurrence, and thus, takes time.

The thing you don't understand here is that IT is an action with requirements and results so if ITs requirement is to "exist somewhere" and "to be able to teleport" and the action of teleporting is "using it and vanishing" and "appearing" and "ceasing to exist somewhere" as well as "beginning to exist somehwhere" being the results of that. You can't just ignore parts of it and unlike your example of me having an even even prior to the existence at point A, the existence at point A is actually the only important thing for the beginning. Technically you can define the first moment as being as long as you want, that does not matter. But existing at one point is important and is part of what is necessary for IT/general teleportation. The core of what we said is very well the same because it had mentioned at least two moments, the important actions and a difference in time, the problem you "cause" (not insulting) with you placing "starts IT and appears" is that you ignore half of what is important because the requirement of existing before somewhere (thing)just is important for the chain as well as the vanishing is important (different thing) as well as the result of stopping to exist there (different thing) as well as appearing (different thing) as well as starting to exist somewhere else (different thing). If you put IT and him appearing again and starting to exist there on one and the same point then you have a very generalized moment that still can be seperated into more moments as "starting IT" will result in 1. vanishing at A (and if he starts Instant Transmission he still is at point A because starting to vanish from point A requires him to stand there in the first place so that is no matter how we define it, a fact that is important and needs to be considered) - (ceasing)- and 2. appearing at point B making it impossible for Instant Transmission in detail to be only one moment, even if you say "Goku starts IT", because when he did, point A definitely was involvedm no matter if "he still existed there" or "in that moment vanished there".

This is gettingtoo complicated, I guess and off-topic as you say. If you want, send me a PM but otherwise I guess we are done because it is possible that this discussion will lead to nowhere and I assume we both don't want that. That said, I actually had fun with this conversation (as weird as this might sound).

One last things and then I'll stop, because while I'm having fun, I agree with your last point about this being off topic. (please feel free to add a final comment if you feel it necessary.)

One way of looking at this:

moment 1: Goku vanishes form point a
moment 2: Goku appears at point b.

Conclusion: time lapse.

My interpretation of IT:

Moment1: Goku vanishes from point A AND appears in point B simultaneously.

Conclusion: No time lapse.

[White Oni]

On topic:

I hope we get more people talking about FTL combat speed in DBZ.

I'm interested in 3 things.

1) hearing what arguments opposing views have against FTL combat in DBZ

2) Getting a general agreement on FTL for dbz combat, so we can add it to the list.

3) Discussing how incredibly strong the impact of the punches being thrown at these speeds must be and how that influences the Z fighters durability and strength.

[Kamiccolo9]

On topic:

1) hearing what arguments opposing views have against FTL combat in DBZ

The crowd is able to keep up with Goten and Trunks fighting in the Budokai, even while in Super Saiyan form. Same with the population of the world being able to follow SSJ3 Goku and Fat Buu's fight, and Mr. Satan being able to follow the Pure Buu fight, and everyone being able to watch the Cell Games. If they were moving faster than light, they wouldn't be visible to "normal" people.

[White Oni]

On topic:

1) hearing what arguments opposing views have against FTL combat in DBZ

The crowd is able to keep up with Goten and Trunks fighting in the Budokai, even while in Super Saiyan form. Same with the population of the world being able to follow SSJ3 Goku and Fat Buu's fight, and Mr. Satan being able to follow the Pure Buu fight, and everyone being able to watch the Cell Games. If they were moving faster than light, they wouldn't be visible to "normal" people.

Good stuff to mull over.

Here I go.

1) we already know Faster than sight fighting is possible in the DB universe, DB Kuririn and Roshi do so.

2) Cell games and Buu vs Goku combat is not visible to humans, only a few instances of them standing still during battle. (IIRC)

3) The hardest one to counter, the Goten vs trunks fight. All I can say is that it's completely unknown, how much the audience actually sees. HOWEVER, there's an instance when they react to a blast that shouldn't be visible to them. The only thing I can think of is that they were really suppressing themselves.

4) How well does satan follow the fight? Honestly can't remember.

[Bullza]

There was that feat where Buutenks smacked Gohan's blast hard enough to send in through the other side of the planet and through who knows how many layers of rock. Goku is stonger than him as a God, so I guess that'd count for his striking strength.

Beerus destroyed a bunch of planets just by flying into them and he was punching and kicking at Goku and his head was still attached to his shoulders.

It's not related to Goku but Cell used his telekinesis to lift possibly dozens of thousands of tons worth of rock when he was creating the arena, that was pretty impressive.

[Kamiccolo9]

On topic:

1) hearing what arguments opposing views have against FTL combat in DBZ

The crowd is able to keep up with Goten and Trunks fighting in the Budokai, even while in Super Saiyan form. Same with the population of the world being able to follow SSJ3 Goku and Fat Buu's fight, and Mr. Satan being able to follow the Pure Buu fight, and everyone being able to watch the Cell Games. If they were moving faster than light, they wouldn't be visible to "normal" people.

Good stuff to mull over.

Here I go.

1) we already know Faster than sight fighting is possible in the DB universe, DB Kuririn and Roshi do so.

2) Cell games and Buu vs Goku combat is not visible to humans, only a few instances of them standing still during battle. (IIRC)

3) The hardest one to counter, the Goten vs trunks fight. All I can say is that it's completely unknown, how much the audience actually sees. HOWEVER, there's an instance when they react to a blast that shouldn't be visible to them. The only thing I can think of is that they were really suppressing themselves.

4) How well does satan follow the fight? Honestly can't remember.

The Krillin Roshi fight is inconsistent with pretty much every other fight in the manga, including the ones immediately following it. As I recall, no one has trouble following Roshi and Goku, nor Tenshinhan and Goku, nor Piccolo and Goku.

In the Cell Games, the announcer comments on how great Goku was fighting, right before Mr. Satan replies that it was a bunch of tricks, indicating that he had seen them.

I doubt Babidi would have broadcasted the fight to the Earthlings as an example of what would happen to them if they wouldn't have been capable of seeing the fights to begin with. There would have been no point.

As for the Goten/Trunks fight, the whole point demonstrated there is that Goten is no good at suppressing himself. There's no way they were suppressing themselves down to low DB levels, especially not as Super Saiyans.

For Mr. Satan I have a slight correction to make. I didn't see any indication that he could keep up with Goku and Buu, since he doesn't appear in any of the panels, but he can definitely follow the Buu vs Buu fight that follows.

[White Oni]

Well I looked over the Trunks vs Goten fight.

SO many things don't make sense here.

The announcer, the FREAKING announcer, dodges a KMHMH.

And yes, the audience sees the blasts.

This contradicts so much and is so goofey, the only way I can justify it is as Gag... I know that's a cheap "cop-out" but it's impossible to make sense of the DB universe without it. And hey, if Hercule can survive a hit from cell... Anythings possible lol.

[White Oni]

The Krillin Roshi fight is inconsistent with pretty much every other fight in the manga, including the ones immediately following it. As I recall, no one has trouble following Roshi and Goku, nor Tenshinhan and Goku, nor Piccolo and Goku.

In the Cell Games, the announcer comments on how great Goku was fighting, right before Mr. Satan replies that it was a bunch of tricks, indicating that he had seen them.

I doubt Babidi would have broadcasted the fight to the Earthlings as an example of what would happen to them if they wouldn't have been capable of seeing the fights to begin with. There would have been no point.

As for the Goten/Trunks fight, the whole point demonstrated there is that Goten is no good at suppressing himself. There's no way they were suppressing themselves down to low DB levels, especially not as Super Saiyans.

For Mr. Satan I have a slight correction to make. I didn't see any indication that he could keep up with Goku and Buu, since he doesn't appear in any of the panels, but he can definitely follow the Buu vs Buu fight that follows.

The Kuririn Roshi Fight is just fine. Think about things like after images, dodging popo who's stated to fight at the speed of lightning, FTL blast dodges, among many other things, clearly, Kuririn and roshi's exchange was not a speed anomaly.

As for the cell games, the announcer was commenting on the fact that they were so strong that all he could see was their explosions. That is why hercule bothered calling it a trick. What type of "trick" would they be pulling if the announcer was just talking about their martial arts?(as if he'd even know what good martial arts looks like)

Babbidi could have just wanted to show them goku's defeat.

hercule doesn't actually see the exchange of blows between the buus, just the outcome of the exchange, hence his concern.


I agree that Goten and trunks were holding back, I just sweep it under the rug as "gag".

[Kamiccolo9]

The Krillin Roshi fight is inconsistent with pretty much every other fight in the manga, including the ones immediately following it. As I recall, no one has trouble following Roshi and Goku, nor Tenshinhan and Goku, nor Piccolo and Goku.

In the Cell Games, the announcer comments on how great Goku was fighting, right before Mr. Satan replies that it was a bunch of tricks, indicating that he had seen them.

I doubt Babidi would have broadcasted the fight to the Earthlings as an example of what would happen to them if they wouldn't have been capable of seeing the fights to begin with. There would have been no point.

As for the Goten/Trunks fight, the whole point demonstrated there is that Goten is no good at suppressing himself. There's no way they were suppressing themselves down to low DB levels, especially not as Super Saiyans.

For Mr. Satan I have a slight correction to make. I didn't see any indication that he could keep up with Goku and Buu, since he doesn't appear in any of the panels, but he can definitely follow the Buu vs Buu fight that follows.

The Kuririn Roshi Fight is just fine. Think about things like after images, dodging popo who's stated to fight at the speed of lightning, FTL blast dodges, among many other things, clearly, Kuririn and roshi's exchange was not a speed anomaly.

As for the cell games, the announcer was commenting on the fact that they were so strong that all he could see was their explosions. That is why (the H-word) bothered calling it a trick. What type of "trick" would they be pulling if the announcer was just talking about their martial arts?(as if he'd even know what good martial arts looks like)

Babbidi could have just wanted to show them goku's defeat.

(the H-word) doesn't actually see the exchange of blows between the buus, just the outcome of the exchange, hence his concern.


I agree that Goten and trunks were holding back, I just sweep it under the rug as "gag".

The part of the fight the announcer commented on contained only one ki attack, a deflected Kamehameha that never connected with anything. There were no explosions.

What would showing a defeated Goku accomplish? The whole point was to show what Buu was capable of, not show him standing over a dead guy that nobody knows. Everyone knows that Buu can kill people; why would showing everyone a defeated Goku impress or scare anyone anymore than they already were?

That's not the impression given at all. He's capable of reacting to the fights, he manages to react when Pure Buu charges at him, an he even runs in to break up the Buu's fight. Why would Pure Buu be suppressing himself to a point where Mr. Satan could see him? It doesn't fit with his character.

Popo moving "at the speed of lightning" isn't in the manga.

The single biggest thing is that no one is ever said to be faster than light. Seriously, in a manga such as Dragon Ball, where everyone brags about and quantifies their strength, you would think that somebody, at some point, would mention that they were faster than light. Yet, aside from some anime quotes, no one ever does. Toriyama has a simplistic style; if he wanted them to be faster than light, he would have said so. You're attempting to apply real life logic to Dragon Ball, which doesn't work. If they were moving at the speed of light, then no one should be able to see them, the speed at which they were moving would cause sonic booms that would devastate the areas where they fought, and no one would be able to carry on or understand conversations while fighting.

DB isn't like Marvel or DC; it doesn't employ pseudo-science to explain all of these things. Toriyama has Vegeta say that he can blow up the planet; it doesn't mean that Vegeta is capable of producing energy output of 4.8x10^5345409583045830485308523452535 gigawhatevers that travels at 4.3 times the speed of light because due to the angle of the attack seen under the trajectory of the sun it connects in .0000000000000003 seconds, it just means that he can blow up the planet. Reading any deeper than that is unnecessary, and I doubt that Toriyama would understand it anyway.

[Bullza]

As I recall, no one has trouble following Roshi and Goku, nor Tenshinhan and Goku, nor Piccolo and Goku.

There were actually a lot of comments about them not being able to see them.

[White Oni]

in regards to the cell game, what I'm saying is that nothing contradicts FTL combat speed. To Hercule and the announcer, the only see hazy images sounds and explosions coming from all around the areana and above it. Also, this is the frame. Does that look like the face of someone who saw something normal? just your every day commentary on a normal fight, right?

Spoiler:

As for hercules reaction to Pure buu. Pure buu was being.

Pure buu was either HIGHLY suppressed OR it was pure gag. Don't believe me? HERCULE, frekaing HERCULE, dodged an attack from him in the same frame. lol, unless you think he's capable of something like that. xD

Spoiler:

Popo moving faster than lighting isn't in the manga?

Spoiler:

Also, what was that about human sighting being enough to see movements?

Spoiler:

Note that as fighters in DB get stronger, so does their ability to see fast movement. Bare that in mind when you look at this.

Spoiler:

AT hardly ever said "THIS PERSON IS ____."

Most of the feats we have from the series are careful inferences.

Here's one.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-dis ... ge-8213391

Well, there are those stranges blessings that AT sometimes grants us. Like this page, that makes it more than clear that Goku moves FTL.

Spoiler:

"like a god" Oh AT, humble humble AT.

But really, anyone who thinks FTL speeds are something AT "would never consider" must be smoking something really strong. The Dude's legacy is series of already buff characters getting endless and ridiculous Power ups.

[Kamiccolo9]

As I recall, no one has trouble following Roshi and Goku, nor Tenshinhan and Goku, nor Piccolo and Goku.

There were actually a lot of comments about them not being able to see them.

Provide them, please.

There's one in the Goku/Tenshinhan fight, concerning the announcer saying how much of "an incredible offensive and defensive battle this is, even though I can't remotely see it," which is a strange quote since, if he couldn't see it, how can he know it's an "incredibly offensive and defensive battle?"

Bulma, of all people, manages to keep up with Kami and Piccolo's fight in the 23rd Budokai.

It was said that no one could compete with Piccolo's speed in the same Budokai, not that he couldn't be seen.

All of the fights in the 22nd and 23rd Budokai finals are above the Krillin/Roshi fight, yet there are very few comments regarding them being unable to be seen.

Bulma watches Krillin and Gohan dispose of Freeza's men upon arriving on Namek.

Bulma is also capable of seeing Freeza and co. fly by on Namek. Unless you think that they are flying more slowly with power levels in the tens of thousands then people in the low 100's would fight.

I don't really feel like looking past Namek, but I will if I have to.

And again, these guys have entire conversations while fighting. Are they talking at light speed too? How do they breathe while moving that fast? How do their eyes withstand that kind of wind resistance? Why aren't they creating sonic booms whenever they move? Why has no one ever said that they were moving faster than light?

[Bullza]

After I've eaten by dinner I'll find all the comments I can. I do recall there being a fair amount though.

[White Oni]

After I've eaten by dinner I'll find all the comments I can. I do recall there being a fair amount though.

I think there are a few in the spoilers of my last post, hope that helps some.

[The Monkey King]

No offence Kamiccolo, but have you read any of these fights?

22nd BT:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

23rd BT:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Yamcha vs Saibaman

Spoiler:

Heck, even Tao Pai Pai is casually hypersonic:

Spoiler:

And again, these guys have entire conversations while fighting. Are they talking at light speed too? How do they breathe while moving that fast? How do their eyes withstand that kind of wind resistance? Why aren't they creating sonic booms whenever they move? Why has no one ever said that they were moving faster than light?

What you just described are tropes which are used all throughout fiction. Toriyama simply doesn't care that much.
At most you can argue Toriyama is inconsistent in this regard.

[xmysticgohanx]

In the krillin vs roshi fight, they had an entire fight sequence and the crowd couldn't see them. It makes no sense for the fighters to have gotten slower. The reason they don't create sonic booms is because this is DB not DC where some physics like that don't apply. Why does Google not tell me how fast you have to be to not be seen?