Goku, a Mary-Sue?

[Zephyr]

If Goku was a Mary Sue then everyone would love and admire him for no reason at all while Vegeta or anyone who doubts him would always be shown in a negative light

Uh.....

They have reasons for loving and admiring him, and people who doubt him aren't always shown in a negative light.

[jjgp1112]

If Goku was a Mary Sue then everyone would love and admire him for no reason at all while Vegeta or anyone who doubts him would always be shown in a negative light

Uh.....

They have reasons for loving and admiring him, and people who doubt him aren't always shown in a negative light.

Yeah, the reasons for people doubting him are important as to what light its cast in. Vegeta doubting Goku is negative because his reasons are a result of his backwards, asshole mentality. Something like everybody questioning him for his decisions against Cell on the other hand, weren't negative.

[RandomGuy96]

It really, really depends on how one qualifies a "Mary Sue". Does having flaws automatically disqualify a character from being one, or can it still apply if the flaws are minor and/or downplayed, or just outright eclipsed by the Sue-ish qualities? Daenerys Targaryen is a good example of a character who's skirts the line. "Mary Sue" has never been a really well defined term in the first place; some people even just use it to refer to a very specific type of self-insert fanfiction character.

In any case, I'd say Goku doesn't count. He has a lot of common Mary Sue traits (inexplicably good at everything he tries even when others fail, has unique powers despite it not being very logical, part of an extinct/dying group, almost everyone loves him no matter what, naysayers are usually depicted as simply wrong or outright cartoonishly evil, gets focus even when he shouldn't, the universe bends and defies logic to make sure he comes out on top, etc.), but his flaws and poor decision making are clearly not signs of an overly idealized character; what makes him a somewhat debatable case is that his horrible deeds are often glanced over, in-story if not by the author. However, I think they're given at least SOME focus, and the "Z" portion of the story in general depicts him as much more of a supporting member of an ensemble cast rather than the main fighter, compared to whom all the others are shit.

Anime Goku (GT and movies, and yes that includes BOG) comes closer, as he is depicted as much more heroic and gets even more focus and wanking, and could very well qualify. I'd have to get a more specific definition, though, but at the moment I'm still leaning towards "no".

[ABED]

inexplicably good at everything he tries even when others fail, has unique powers despite it not being very logical, part of an extinct/dying group, almost everyone loves him no matter what, naysayers are usually depicted as simply wrong or outright cartoonishly evil, gets focus even when he shouldn't, the universe bends and defies logic to make sure he comes out on top, etc.

Goku isn't good at everything he does, he's just a wunderkind at fighting.
When did being part of a dying group become part of the definition?
He's the main character. It's not ensemble in the sense that there's an equal distribution of focus. That was NEVER the case. The story followed him from the beginning.

[RandomGuy96]

inexplicably good at everything he tries even when others fail, has unique powers despite it not being very logical, part of an extinct/dying group, almost everyone loves him no matter what, naysayers are usually depicted as simply wrong or outright cartoonishly evil, gets focus even when he shouldn't, the universe bends and defies logic to make sure he comes out on top, etc.

Goku isn't good at everything he does, he's just a wunderkind at fighting.
When did being part of a dying group become part of the definition?
He's the main character. It's not ensemble in the sense that there's an equal distribution of focus. That was NEVER the case. The story followed him from the beginning.

As I said, everything he tries. He never tries to do anything other than fight, train, and just generally get better at battle.

It's not part of the definition, but it is a common Mary Sue traits, like uncommon hair and eye color.

He was only the "main character" for the pre-Raditz sections. After that he didn't have any more significance than Gohan or Vegeta, and he didn't play a very large role relative to the others in the Pilaf arc either. "He's the main character" is no excuse for him getting completely illogical and stupid power-ups while the story goes out of its way to make the others look like shit.

[Vegard Aune]

For all of you still confused by what a Mary Sue is, let me present the most infamous one of all time: Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way, the "heroine" of the so-bad-it's-brilliant Harry Potter Fan-Fic, MY Immortal.

And yes, I don't think Goku is anything like her.

Prolific characters like Goku are easy targets for the "Mary Sue" label. They get taken at face value and the nuances of their character often end up submerged beneath popular conceptions and generalizations. Goku is seen as a dumb nice guy who always saves the day, and not the innocent wild child who grows into a fun-loving battle-hungry warrior.

Completely off-topic, but, My Immortal, so-bad-it's-brilliant? Hell no. Light and Dark The Adventures of Dark Yagami is so-bad-it's-brilliant (seriously, I dare you to read through that story without dying from laughter at how preposterously stupid it gets). My Immortal is just boring and annoying most of the time. And let it be said that I love so-bad-it's-good fanfiction.

Back on topic... Yeah, to me a Mary Sue would be a character who never does anything wrong, is loved by everyone except the villains, who can often pull off feats that completely defy the very logic of the universe and yet the story just treats it as "HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT HOW AWESOME OUR HERO IS!!!!!" ... and who also has no discernable character beyond being TOTALLY AWESOME AND SEXY N'STUFF. Goku is nowhere near a Mary Sue. He frequently gets his ass handed to him, especially early on in the story, his stupidity causes tons of grief even for his friends... he does admittedly do the impossible quite often but then again so does everyone else (Remember everyone, you have to train for fifty years to master the Kame-Hame-Ha), and he has a clear and distinct personality. One which entails being incredibly dense and so obsessed with getting a good fight that he indirectly caused the deaths of millions. Yeah Goku is not at all a Sue or a Stu.

[ABED]

As I said, everything he tries. He never tries to do anything other than fight, train, and just generally get better at battle.

Then that's very deceptive because your wording makes it sound like he's good at everything, but all he does is things associated with fighting.

He was only the "main character" for the pre-Raditz sections. After that he didn't have any more significance than Gohan or Vegeta, and he didn't play a very large role relative to the others in the Pilaf arc either. "He's the main character" is no excuse for him getting completely illogical and stupid power-ups while the story goes out of its way to make the others look like shit.

Everyone waits for him to arrive, and he's in every episode, but he's not the main character? He played a big role in the Pilaf arc. You're abusing quotation marks. What illogical power ups are you referring to other than perhaps the ones in the Freeza arc that everyone seemed to get?

[Cursed Lemon]

Various qualifications of a Sue:

- Introduced midway through the story, takes the spotlight away from the main cast
- Physically attractive, wears a lot of belts and zippers
- Has minimal/trivial relationships or contact with the rest of the cast, i.e. badass loner or bleeding-heart vagabond
- Exceptionally strong or competent
- Melodramatic portrayal, either brooding or overly emotional
- Contrived backstory that feels like it's just tacked on with duct tape, often based around tragedy and/or atonement
- Often a technical pacifist or an amoral chaotic-neutral
- Has flaws that only make the character more appealing in some way (bad at math, clumsy, etc.)

So no, I don't really think Goku fits the bill. He's just the main character, that's all.

[Kid Buu]

Everyone waits for him to arrive, and he's in every episode, but he's not the main character? He played a big role in the Pilaf arc. You're abusing quotation marks. What illogical power ups are you referring to other than perhaps the ones in the Freeza arc that everyone seemed to get?

There's a few episodes that doesn't have him, like the Garlic Jr and Great Saiyaman stuff

In the Pilaf Arc it is more of him, Bulma, and Oolong sharing the main character status. Even then, he doesn't save the day in the end (Oolong does), he doesn't beat the final antagonist (Puar does), and he doesn't have a notable character arc (that Yamcha has).

[ABED]

Fair enough about the Great Saiyaman episodes and the Garlic Jr stuff, but in the Pilaf arc I would only give double billing to Bulma. Oolong and Yamcha come along a few episodes later, and the spotlight is still on Goku and Bulma. It's kind of like in the American Pie movies where it's an ensemble story, but by the second one, it's clear that Jim is the central character. Let's use Batman Returns as another example (okay, not a great film, but that's beside the point). Batman's not in it that much, but he's inarguably the main character.

You are looking at this from a micro perspective. In isolation, yes, but that's 13 episodes and as soon as it goes on to the next arc, they all drop out of the story for a while. I wouldn't claim either Oolong or Puar save the day, it was a team effort.

Back on topic, there are many characters that have a number of the traits that some consider "Mary Sue"-ish, but it all comes down ultimately to execution.

[The Monkey King]

OP desperately wants a new reason to hate DBZ.

How sad.

And Goku is not a Mary Sue lmao.

[RandomGuy96]

As I said, everything he tries. He never tries to do anything other than fight, train, and just generally get better at battle.

Then that's very deceptive because your wording makes it sound like he's good at everything, but all he does is things associated with fighting.

He was only the "main character" for the pre-Raditz sections. After that he didn't have any more significance than Gohan or Vegeta, and he didn't play a very large role relative to the others in the Pilaf arc either. "He's the main character" is no excuse for him getting completely illogical and stupid power-ups while the story goes out of its way to make the others look like shit.

Everyone waits for him to arrive, and he's in every episode, but he's not the main character? He played a big role in the Pilaf arc. You're abusing quotation marks. What illogical power ups are you referring to other than perhaps the ones in the Freeza arc that everyone seemed to get?

It's not really deceptive when he's the protagonist of a series about fighting where fighting is used to resolve 99% of problems. Not to mention we never saw him try any other pursuits, because they don't interest him.

"Everyone waits for him to arrive" only applies to specific arcs, and even when he does arrive, the formula is sometimes subverted (e.g. in the Saiyan arc, he gets the shit kicked out of him by Vegeta, leaving Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe to be the ones to beat the main villain). I don't think he can be called the main character post-Raditz, as he doesn't play that huge of a role, with his son getting more screen time, as well as the actual character arc. Even Vegeta is more significant than Goku for most of Z, as Goku is practically a non-entity in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu arcs (up until the very end in Freeza's case). In the first arc, he's more like a deuteragonist; again, he doesn't really drive the plot, he doesn't save the day, he doesn't beat the last villain, and he doesn't even have a character arc.

But the main point is, even if he was the main character (which he really isn't), that's no excuse for treating the rest of the supporting cast like shit and defying in-universe logic to wank him.

His Freeza arc power-up, which completely dwarfed Vegeta's (x33 vs x4-5) for no reason other than that he needed to fight Freeza, even though unlike Vegeta and the others he had KK and eventually SS anyway. His Saiyan arc power-up, namely the Kaio-Ken, which was so difficult and powerful that not even its inventor could practically use it, but Goku masters it effortlessly in a year and even improves it. For that matter, KK x10 and x20 in the Freeza arc. His ROSAT training. The magic god water is possibly the worst case, as its whole existence rides in retconning and shitting on a previous arc.

[ABED]

I don't care about the math, but it's ridiculous that Vegeta gets his ass handed to him by Reacoom and then is able to not only rival Ginyu, but fight Freeza to any reasonable degree. It's also ridiculous that Gohan gets a couple power ups and can make Freeza sweat. They are all experiencing huge power ups, I don't know why you pick on Goku.

It's not really deceptive when he's the protagonist of a series about fighting where fighting is used to resolve 99% of problems. Not to mention we never saw him try any other pursuits, because they don't interest him.

It is when you make it seem like he's good at more things than he really is. It would be like saying someone is an amazing chef because everything they make is incredible, but all they do is make eggs and toast. Goku's very good at a limited number of things, which is perfectly reasonable. James Bond has far more things that he excels at.

only applies to specific arcs

Pretty much all in DBZ. Even in the Buu arc, I would be a fair number were waiting for Goku to arrive and save the day. Yes, in the Vegeta arc, expectations are subverted, but the Z Team were waiting for Goku.

as he doesn't play that huge of a role, with his son getting more screen time, as well as the actual character arc. Even Vegeta is more significant than Goku for most of Z, as Goku is practically a non-entity in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu arcs (up until the very end in Freeza's case). In the first arc, he's more like a deuteragonist; again, he doesn't really drive the plot, he doesn't save the day, he doesn't beat the last villain, and he doesn't even have a character arc.

Having an arc isn't a precondition for being the main character. Goku doesn't have much of an arc, if any. He's more or less the same guy from beginning to end.

Your point about everyone else being the one's to defeat Vegeta is SO wrong! All it does is show your hatred for Goku that you want to take any bit of credit away from him that you can. It was his Genki Dama that Kuririn threw, it was Goku that injured Vegeta early on in the battle, it was Goku that rescued his friends in time for them to be there for him, and it was his his plan on how to defeat Vegeta.

Goku is in most of the chapters of DBZ, and pretty much every episode, the characters are constantly waiting on him to arrive. Hell, they do so twice in the Freeza arc. Gohan doesn't drive the plot of the Cell arc until the end. And yes, Goku does defeat Buu, he has some help, but he's the guy that defeats Buu. It's his attack that synchs the deal.

This is all off topic, either PM me, create another thread, or stop making this all about how much you hate Goku.

His Saiyan arc power-up, namely the Kaio-Ken, which was so difficult and powerful that not even its inventor could practically use it, but Goku masters it effortlessly in a year and even improves it. For that matter, KK x10 and x20 in the Freeza arc. His ROSAT training. The magic god water is possibly the worst case, as its whole existence rides in retconning and shitting on a previous arc.
I wouldn't say it shit on the entire arc seeing as how you could chalk it up to Karin not thinking Goku needed it, that he could become strong enough without putting his life at risk. His RoSaT training wasn't ridiculous, I don't see why you think that. Never mind, I know, you hate Goku. We don't know how much effort it took for Goku to master the Kaio-ken. You act like there are no real life parallels where the student eclipses the master.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't care about the math, but it's ridiculous that Vegeta gets his ass handed to him by Reacoom and then is able to not only rival Ginyu, but fight Freeza to any reasonable degree. It's also ridiculous that Gohan gets a couple power ups and can make Freeza sweat. They are all experiencing huge power ups, I don't know why you pick on Goku.

Because Goku's is by far the biggest and most illogical, placing him miles ahead of everyone else in his base form for no real reason. He wasn't even that badly beat up after the fight with Ginyu, yet he still gets x33 boost as opposed to Vegeta, who got a x4-5 boost from getting his guts blown out? I also liked how ignored all of the other power-ups he got, like the Kaio-Ken and god water.

Gohan had to get several zenkais plus the Elder's potential unlock PLUS rage boosts just to get over one million. Goku only needed one zenkai to get to three million.

It is when you make it seem like he's good at more things than he really is. It would be like saying someone is an amazing chef because everything they make is incredible, but all they do is make eggs and toast. Goku's very good at a limited number of things, which is perfectly reasonable. James Bond has far more things that he excels at.

Not really. I simply said he was good at everything he tried, which was true. In a fighting series, it doesn't really matter if he's good at, say, cooking, since that has no relevance to anything. Not to mention we never saw him try anything other than fighting, but given how easily he mastered that, we're not given any reason to think he can ONLY be good at those specific things.

Pretty much all in DBZ. Even in the Buu arc, I would be a fair number were waiting for Goku to arrive and save the day. Yes, in the Vegeta arc, expectations are subverted, but the Z Team were waiting for Goku.

Nope. No one was waiting for Goku in the Buu arc, because he was weak as shit compared to the main villain, and couldn't do anything to help. Everyone was waiting for Gohan and Gotenks, up until Toriyama made a switch at the very last second for unknown reasons. And simply arriving late doesn't make you that important. Past the 23rd Budokai, it's not even about Goku anymore, not really. Heck, Goku dies pretty much right after Gohan is introduced. The only arc you can say kinda played it straight was the Freeza arc, but I'd still argue that it counts as a subversion, because not only did he fail the first time around and have to be saved by the others, but he was barely in the arc up until the very very end, and even then, he didn't kill Freeza; he fucked it up and instead Trunks killed Freeza.

Having an arc isn't a precondition for being the main character. Goku doesn't have much of an arc, if any. He's more or less the same guy from beginning to end.

Goku is in most of the chapters of DBZ, and pretty much every episode, the characters are constantly waiting on him to arrive. Hell, they do so twice in the Freeza arc. Gohan doesn't drive the plot of the Cell arc until the end. And yes, Goku does defeat Buu, he has some help, but he's the guy that defeats Buu. It's his attack that synchs the deal.

Goku does not go through changes, he doesn't play the main role in defeating the main villain, he doesn't drive the plot, he doesn't get a lot of screen time, therefore he's not really the main character, at least not to the extent that he overshadows everyone else.

I fail to see how waiting for someone to arrive means they're that important. No, Goku does not defeat Buu. The plan was thought up by Vegeta, it's only possible because Mr. Buu fights Pure Buu, and all of the power is contributed by Gohan and co + the Earthlings. Goku was a tool, nothing more.

I wouldn't say it shit on the entire arc seeing as how you could chalk it up to Karin not thinking Goku needed it, that he could become strong enough without putting his life at risk. His RoSaT training wasn't ridiculous, I don't see why you think that. Never mind, I know, you hate Goku. We don't know how much effort it took for Goku to master the Kaio-ken. You act like there are no real life parallels where the student eclipses the master.

The whole point of that training was that there are no magical shortcuts, and no substitute for hard work. But then, lo and behold, there actually is, because Goku needs to get stronger, and also no one else can have it.

Goku takes one trip in the ROSAT and suddenly becomes nearly twice as strong as Vegeta, who took two trips in the ROSAT, and by the 2nd trip is also a mastered Super Saiyan, and who started out stronger than Goku going in and had a stronger sparring partner.

Actually, we do. He mastered it in one year while also increasing his strength massively and learning the Genki-Dama, and then kicked it up to KK x10 and x20 in the ship ride from Earth to Namek.

There's a difference between "student surpasses master" and "random mortal is better at using godly techniques than the actual fucking gods who invented those same techniques", even when he trains for a year and said god has been alive and practicing martial arts for thousands of years.

[Ringworm128]

As stated a million times Goku is far from perfect. If you want a Mary-Sue look at Natsu from Fairy Tail.

[Fionordequester]

There's a difference between "student surpasses master" and "random mortal is better at using godly techniques than the actual fucking gods who invented those same techniques", even when he trains for a year and said god has been alive and practicing martial arts for thousands of years.

Then what about guys like Bruce Lee, who become so far above other people due to their brilliance and hard work? Cuz the way I see it, Goku was basically a fictional Bruce Lee if you think about it.

[ABED]

There's a difference between "student surpasses master" and "random mortal is better at using godly techniques than the actual fucking gods who invented those same techniques", even when he trains for a year and said god has been alive and practicing martial arts for thousands of years.

Then what about guys like Bruce Lee, who become so far above other people due to their brilliance and hard work? Cuz the way I see it, Goku was basically a fictional Bruce Lee if you think about it.

My thoughts exactly.

[RandomGuy96]

There's a difference between "student surpasses master" and "random mortal is better at using godly techniques than the actual fucking gods who invented those same techniques", even when he trains for a year and said god has been alive and practicing martial arts for thousands of years.

Then what about guys like Bruce Lee, who become so far above other people due to their brilliance and hard work? Cuz the way I see it, Goku was basically a fictional Bruce Lee if you think about it.

Did Bruce Lee surpass a god who was tens of thousands of years old by mastering a godly technique said god invented?

[ABED]

So because he's a god, he can't be surpassed? It's a fictional world where Toriyama creates the rules and if he says a mortal can surpass a god, then he does. It's not like they are actually gods even in the pagan sense. They are just powerful beings.

[RandomGuy96]

So because he's a god, he can't be surpassed?

Because he's a 50 thousand year old god who created a super powerful technique that he could barely use himself, it is illogical that one random low level fighter could not only learn that same technique in one year, but completely master it and make it several times greater.