Daizenshuu - the Power Levels contradict the Manga.

[Hitiro]

I've always been under the impression that fighters like Nappa, Cui and Vegeta until he learnt how to control his battle power, that they have a resting battle power which as they start fighting and getting serious climbs to their maximum. They have no control over how it reaches that point apart from physically exerting their best. Kind of like how a runner will have a low heart rate before he starts running and then when he is running his heart rate increases up to 30 or 40 more beats per minute.

[RandomGuy96]

He certainly didn't hit Nappa when he calmed down.

Which, again, is irrelevant, given that the "calm" fight lasted like three panels, and for the majority of the fight Nappa was getting thrashed.

Krillin was down in one attack. The fact that he actually dodged the blast and was taken out by the explosion is enough to show Nappa's superiority there. It's funny because Krillin's feats are more impressive than Piccolo's, and he's much weaker.

I was actually talking about him dodging Nappa's punch. Nappa dodged one hit from Goku and almost hurt him with his biggest, baddest attack, but never hit him. Krillin hit Nappa twice, dodged one hit from Nappa (well, one and a half maybe), and almost killed Nappa with his biggest, baddest attack, but thanks to outside intervention only succeeded in cutting his face.

Well, I believe Nappa was putting in more effort during the duel, so that would explain the sweat. And it was very impressive considering how he was fighting a few pages before.

Not really. Managing to dodge one hit and ALMOST do some damage by firing your strongest attack in the enemy's face at point blank is not that impressive, and has been done before by much weaker fighters.

I don't believe Nappa's durability should be enough to guide him against someone twice as strong as himself, either. From what we see, Kaioken was the only surefire way of defeating Nappa at that point. Goku stops Nappa's most powerful attack, but instead of being confident, he realizes how tough Nappa really is. Of course, this is enough to convince Vegeta that Nappa is finished--but Goku's reaction still speaks volumes.

Exactly: Goku specifically comments on Nappa's durability. His power doesn't surprise Goku at all- and is apparently non-threatening to the point that Goku can make him look like a fool with feats like that and treat him like a child- but his toughness does; the guy just doesn't stay down. That's why it would take all day. His durability has never made sense either. For example, not two minutes after he was hurt by two ~2,800 attacks and was shown as incapable of hitting a ~5,000 fighter, he was able to take numerous blows from a ~8,000 fighter without serious injury.

It's pretty clear that Nappa was better than before, though. Goku didn't even bother dodging his Chi-attack earlier and thought he was joke. Once Nappa calmed down, Goku had to dodge that explosion attack--and he's even surprised by Nappa's speed as he flies up to him.

I don't remember him really dodging it. Besides, even if he did, it had more to do with the nature of the attacks. One is an explosion. The other is a projectile. He kiai'd Nappa's ki blast away. You can't deflect an explosion.

Nappa wasn't taking Goku seriously at that point.

"Not taking someone seriously" should not inexplicably make him far slower than he should be, and magically make his eyes worse at tracking movements. Serious or not, someone around eight thousand wouldn't have any trouble completely messing up someone at five thousand. Ginyu even said that someone would only need to be at sixty thousand (compared to his men, who were at forty thousand or so) to be able to move so fast that they could pretty much hit the enemy with impunity, with there being nothing the other side can do about it. Do you think suppressed Goku was taking the Ginyus seriously?

Considering the fact that he knocked Tenshinhan's arm off with a mere hit, I don't doubt Nappa could've taken any of them out with ease if he wanted to. Piccolo was down after being elbowed,

It was an off-guard elbow to the back of the skull. Also, Nappa has a huge elbow. It's more surprising that Piccolo didn't die.

and he was the strongest one there. Going strictly by power, Piccolo should've been able to give Nappa a good fight alone. This doesn't go along with what we saw, as Piccolo wants no part of Nappa without a solid plan involving the others.

Piccolo and Nappa never fought. They just hit each other off guard a couple of times. Piccolo did formulate a plan the first two times he attacked Nappa, but Nappa wouldn't have to be twice as strong as him to make Piccolo prefer to have one.

Gohan's Masenko "stung" his arm, but it was easily deflected regardless.

A ki attack at ~2,800 stung the arm of a fighter with a battle power of seven to eight thousand? Not to mention that a pissed off Gohan had previously charged right up to him and kicked him in the face, launching him and leaving a small gash in his head.

[Hitiro]

"Not taking someone seriously" should not inexplicably make him far slower than he should be, and magically make his eyes worse at tracking movements. Serious or not, someone around eight thousand wouldn't have any trouble completely messing up someone at five thousand. Ginyu even said that someone would only need to be at sixty thousand (compared to his men, who were at forty thousand or so) to be able to move so fast that they could pretty much hit the enemy with impunity, with there being nothing the other side can do about it. Do you think suppressed Goku was taking the Ginyus seriously?

I'm not too sure of this. I don't think Ginyu knew much of anything but Goku beat them. His assumption was that Goku must be 60,000 for him to be able to beat Ginyu's special force. And I don't think the manga elaborates on why he must think that. I don't believe Ginyu ever says anything like "He must be at 60,000 if you couldn't track his movements." just pertains to Goku being strong enough to take on them. 1 or 2 at a time. Also, we know that Goku's maximum was not 60,000 but 90,000 as his Kaioken pushes him up to 180,000. So Goku not putting much effort into the fight could probably be around 60,000.

[RandomGuy96]

"Not taking someone seriously" should not inexplicably make him far slower than he should be, and magically make his eyes worse at tracking movements. Serious or not, someone around eight thousand wouldn't have any trouble completely messing up someone at five thousand. Ginyu even said that someone would only need to be at sixty thousand (compared to his men, who were at forty thousand or so) to be able to move so fast that they could pretty much hit the enemy with impunity, with there being nothing the other side can do about it. Do you think suppressed Goku was taking the Ginyus seriously?

I'm not too sure of this. I don't think Ginyu knew much of anything but Goku beat them. His assumption was that Goku must be 60,000 for him to be able to beat Ginyu's special force. And I don't think the manga elaborates on why he must think that. I don't believe Ginyu ever says anything like "He must be at 60,000 if you couldn't track his movements." just pertains to Goku being strong enough to take on them. 1 or 2 at a time. Also, we know that Goku's maximum was not 60,000 but 90,000 as his Kaioken pushes him up to 180,000. So Goku not putting much effort into the fight could probably be around 60,000.

Didn't Jeice tell him how badly they were beaten?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Which, again, is irrelevant, given that the "calm" fight lasted like three panels, and for the majority of the fight Nappa was getting thrashed.

Actually, it's pretty relevant since we're talking about "calm" Nappa. The one that was getting thrashed was the one who was fighting like a jackass. No matter how short the battle was, Nappa demonstrated far better fighting prowess than he did previously. He was also faster.

I was actually talking about him dodging Nappa's punch. Nappa dodged one hit from Goku and almost hurt him with his biggest, baddest attack, but never hit him. Krillin hit Nappa twice, dodged one hit from Nappa (well, one and a half maybe), and almost killed Nappa with his biggest, baddest attack, but thanks to outside intervention only succeeded in cutting his face.

Nappa was still able to fight with Goku on equal terms, though. We've already established that this wasn't possible a chapter before. As for Krillin, well, he hit Nappa with that combo when he was going for Gohan. It's nothing more than a successful attack on an opponent that was off-guard. Piccolo did that to 50% Freeza--same with Gohan and Krillin on Dodoria, and the difference between them was even more ridiculous than Krillin and Nappa.

Not really. Managing to dodge one hit and ALMOST do some damage by firing your strongest attack in the enemy's face at point blank is not that impressive, and has been done before by much weaker fighters.

It was pretty good considering his abysmal performance a few pages back when he couldn't even follow his movements is what I'm saying. The quick battle consisted of the two fighting equally, with neither landing a hit on the other. We have no reason to believe Goku was holding-back, either.

Exactly: Goku specifically comments on Nappa's durability. His power doesn't surprise Goku at all- and is apparently non-threatening to the point that Goku can make him look like a fool with feats like that and treat him like a child- but his toughness does; the guy just doesn't stay down. That's why it would take all day. His durability has never made sense either. For example, not two minutes after he was hurt by two ~2,800 attacks and was shown as incapable of hitting a ~5,000 fighter, he was able to take numerous blows from a ~8,000 fighter without serious injury.

For him to have a more impressive showing, I'd like to think his power would have to be better as well. So no, I don't believe Nappa "powered-up" in a traditional sense, but think he was able to use his power more effectively once he calmed down. Goku noticed the change. I don't think that part makes much sense if Goku is twice as strong as Nappa.

Also, Vegeta says Nappa can beat Goku if he calms down. He knows Goku's Battle Power is over 8,000 at this point, so there had to be a reason for him to believe Nappa had the necessary level of power to defeat him. That is, unless you believe Vegeta's opinion was actually based on nothing but fake confidence.

I don't remember him really dodging it. Besides, even if he did, it had more to do with the nature of the attacks. One is an explosion. The other is a projectile. He kiai'd Nappa's ki blast away. You can't deflect an explosion.

He jumped in the air at the last moment, with Nappa immediately getting up there to fight him. Nappa's speed was shown to surprise Goku right before he dodged his punch, so he was most likely faster than before.

"Not taking someone seriously" should not inexplicably make him far slower than he should be, and magically make his eyes worse at tracking movements. Serious or not, someone around eight thousand wouldn't have any trouble completely messing up someone at five thousand. Ginyu even said that someone would only need to be at sixty thousand (compared to his men, who were at forty thousand or so) to be able to move so fast that they could pretty much hit the enemy with impunity, with there being nothing the other side can do about it. Do you think suppressed Goku was taking the Ginyus seriously?

I don't think Nappa's Battle Power is that high, but we know not being in the right state of mind will often do more harm than good.

None of the Ginyu members were a threat to Goku. Even still, he was quickly raising his Battle Power whenever it was necessary. That Goku was on an entirely different level compared to them and had no issue deflecting Jheese's most powerful attack. Goku was stronger than Nappa, too, but not above him to the point where he could take any of Nappa's more powerful Chi-attacks without taking any damage.

It was an off-guard elbow to the back of the skull. Also, Nappa has a huge elbow. It's more surprising that Piccolo didn't die.

Right. But all of the feats the weaker fighters had against Nappa were off-guarded. Well, except Gohan--but I think that was about Nappa underestimating Gohan, if anything.

Piccolo and Nappa never fought. They just hit each other off guard a couple of times. Piccolo did formulate a plan the first two times he attacked Nappa, but Nappa wouldn't have to be twice as strong as him to make Piccolo prefer to have one.

If we go by Battle Powers, Piccolo is barely weaker than Nappa. Everything we see from Piccolo implies that there's a hella difference between him and Nappa. Also, there's the whole "when you're focused, your power surpasses mine, Gohan." stuff that some would say proves Gohan's Masenko is probably more powerful than Piccolo. Hell, Piccolo's reaction to the power Gohan displayed when he kicked Nappa away might be enough in itself.

A ki attack at ~2,800 stung the arm of a fighter with a battle power of seven to eight thousand? Not to mention that a pissed off Gohan had previously charged right up to him and kicked him in the face, launching him and leaving a small gash in his head.

I don't think Nappa's that powerful, but I also don't believe he was using all of his power at that point. I think the "power-up" against Goku was Nappa utilizing all of his power at its absolute best.

Gohan has a tendency to knock the shit outta someone when he's angry. Nappa wasn't expecting that outburst from Gohan, which is why he attacked him the way he did. That kick was actually more impressive than the Masenko, despite the fact that the Masenko was stronger. The difference in the situations is that Nappa was more wide open on one and more defensive on the other.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nor have the Daizenshuu ever given battle power numbers to characters who never displayed said power (Namek Goku would count for this, as the very next time we see him he has powered up).

And? The images still clearly depict what you're saying are weakened versions. You and I both know that those levels were intended to represent the powers at play in the battle, not hypothetical battle powers that were never actually shown. It also makes no sense that Goku would magically get, say, 90% of his ki refilled, but that last little bit just doesn't come back.

The guidebooks never have the BP of those when they are suppressed of weakened. They don't have the image of SS Goku from Namek to say "this is SS Goku, injured", they say "this is SS Goku". Not to mention there isn't any available image of uninjured Freeza arc Goku. You are looking into it too much.

It didn't magically make him weaker... and it wasn't really a huge difference. And he was pretty much calm at first, in a smug and cocky kind of way.

He was calm, but he thought he was against a weakling, he wasn't fighting seriously.

I recall Goku hitting him many times. That's the reason Nappa got so pissed.

But after Nappa got serious & calm, Goku couldn't land a single hit. Nappa blocked all of his hits, and avoided one hit. Same thing goes for Goku. It was an even fight.

I'd agree with you if Nappa actually managed anything against Goku. As it stands, managing to dodge ONE hit and ALMOST doing some damage against someone by firing your most powerful attack at them at point blank range is not enough to override his shitty performance up to that point (Krillin has essentially the same feats against Nappa, btw). Especially since his performance in this supposedly even battle was also pretty shitty: he was sweating bullets after his brief, three panel exchange with Goku, while the latter wasn't even breathing hard and was treating Nappa like a child, and his strongest attack was outright countered at point blank range by a quick reactionary blast from Goku. That is not something you should be able to do to someone on par with yourself.

But Nappa also managed to block all of Goku's hits, and Goku didn't dodge Nappa's hit like it was nothing.

The Daizenshuu 2 even says that Nappa "was powerless against Goku" and "[Goku] treats Nappa like a child".

That was before Nappa got calm & serious.

Someone at 7-8 thousand would also have absolutely no trouble hitting someone suppressed to 5,000, wouldn't be unable to hit a 1,770 fighter, and wouldn't be hurt by attacks from a 2,800 fighter. Also, Tenshinhan, Gohan, and the others wouldn't all be able to survive hits from him.

Except if this someone at 7-8 thousand isn't serious against those weaklings.

[RandomGuy96]

The guidebooks never have the BP of those when they are suppressed of weakened. They don't have the image of SS Goku from Namek to say "this is SS Goku, injured", they say "this is SS Goku". Not to mention there isn't any available image of uninjured Freeza arc Goku. You are looking into it too much.

You're the one who's looking too much into it. The Daizenshuu shows us two images of what are clearly Freeza and Goku during their battle on Namek, with the numbers clearly assigned to them. The intent was to show us the powers at play in this battle. It was not to confuse us by throwing out numbers for powers that were never shown in the manga and have no relevance to anything. You know just as well as I do what they most likely meant.

He was calm, but he thought he was against a weakling, he wasn't fighting seriously.

Again, him "not being serious" doesn't matter. He can't suppress his battle power, and if he's anywhere near as strong as you say, ~8,000 Goku would be completely visible and touchable to him, and ~5,000 Goku would appear to be moving in slow motion rather than moving so fast Nappa can't track him and is awed by his speed.

But after Nappa got serious & calm, Goku couldn't land a single hit. Nappa blocked all of his hits, and avoided one hit. Same thing goes for Goku. It was an even fight.

Which comes back to "why should these three panels suddenly be given more relevance than the entire rest of the battle"? Nappa got hit tons of times by Goku. We do not need to see him crush Nappa even more to get that he's stronger.

But Nappa also managed to block all of Goku's hits, and Goku didn't dodge Nappa's hit like it was nothing.

Did he lay a single finger on Goku? No? Did he avoid getting hit himself? No again? What about his ultimate attack, surely if he fired at Goku's face at point blank range then Goku got hit and- oh, Goku easily deflected it in an instant, leaving Nappa in awe and prompting Vegeta to order him to withdraw?

That was before Nappa got calm & serious.

Nope. Nothing like that is noted; those words are used to describe the entire battle (which makes sense, as Goku really heaps on the condescension after Nappa calms down).

Except if this someone at 7-8 thousand isn't serious against those weaklings.

Being "not serious" doesn't automatically make you several times less durable and slower.

[jjgp1112]

The way I look at it, the numbers in the context of Dragon Ball, while acting as a good way of simplifying power to make it easy to understand and quantify strength, also paradoxically overcomplicate things when people start debating over them because people solely plug in power-level figures and expect everything to work out accordingly. It's a strictly results-oriented measure - even though the result you're trying to figure out is hypothetical in order to work backwards and explain things we see in the show - and you have to consider a variety of other factors.

Like RandomGuy mentioned, Nappa is huge and is shown to be extremely durable, withstanding a head-on explosion, Ti­e­n's Tri-Beam, and swatting away Gohan's masenko with just a sting. And it's not like he was "even" with Goku after clearing his mind. He was just able to keep up with his attacks and not embarrass himself. It certainly wasn't anything impressive to Vegeta since he ordered Nappa to withdraw from the fight shortly after.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You know just as well as I do what they most likely meant.

No, I don't agree with you. I'm not being stubborn to prove my point, I just disagree.

Again, him "not being serious" doesn't matter. He can't suppress his battle power, and if he's anywhere near as strong as you say, ~8,000 Goku would be completely visible and touchable to him, and ~5,000 Goku would appear to be moving in slow motion rather than moving so fast Nappa can't track him and is awed by his speed.

Just because he can't suppress his battle power doesn't mean that he can't hold back.

Which comes back to "why should these three panels suddenly be given more relevance than the entire rest of the battle"? Nappa got hit tons of times by Goku. We do not need to see him crush Nappa even more to get that he's stronger.

It's not from the manga, but check DB Movie 3. Goku was enraged against Taopaipai, and he couldn't hit him. Then Karin taught him that by being calm he can be a better fighter, and when Goku calmed down, he defeated Taopaipai. It's exactly the same thing here.

Did he lay a single finger on Goku? No? Did he avoid getting hit himself? No again? What about his ultimate attack, surely if he fired at Goku's face at point blank range then Goku got hit and- oh, Goku easily deflected it in an instant, leaving Nappa in awe and prompting Vegeta to order him to withdraw?

After Nappa calmed down, did Goku lay a finger on Nappa? No. Vegeta didn't order him to withdraw because he knew that Nappa would lose, he told him to withdraw because their fight would take forever to end. Which can't be the case with a x2 difference.

Being "not serious" doesn't automatically make you several times less durable and slower.

Well, try taking a punch to the stomach or in the face without being prepared.