"Established Facts" that have changed: By Saga.

[Cetra]

EDIT: Never mind. I forgot the Japanese text.

[hleV]

What characters say isn't infallible, as they may often be lying or just overexagerating. Also the Super Saiyan-related "contradictions" are not contradictions because everything is based on a story/legend and they're just theories at best.

Regarding Roshi saying that he's immortal/mortal, what was the actual context? Could it be that in one instance he meant he can't die of old age while in the other that he can be killed?

[UpFromTheSkies]

✪ Becoming a super saiyan is something achieved only through intense training and emotional stimulation... In the Buu Saga,it's revealed that nearly anyone can become an SSj, with minimal training and emotional stimulation, so long as that person has good saiyan genes. A fact that still stands as a current logical inconsistency, seeing as how Future trunks and Gohan attained their ssj status (Contradiction)

This isn't correct. One still needs intense training, rage, and tranquil heart to transform, but Goten & Trunks (both from future & present) are an exception because they belong in the tailless 2nd generation of Saiyan Halflings, according to Daizenshuu 4, so they are the only ones that can transform without training.

They're not 2nd generation halflings, that would mean their parents were halflings, and they're not both second born if that's what you mean, because Trunks has no older sibling.

[Tyro]

When he introduces Master Shen, he says that he's Roshi's old partner. It's fine if we think all that "both Turtle and Crane are symbols of long life" stuff. We don't know how old Roshi is either: they could both be in their 80s, with the difference that Roshi is immortal while Shen isn't.

We know that Kame Sennin is a lot older than that by the time we're introduced to Tsuru Sennin. In Dragon Ball volume #1 he says that he found the Dragon Ball washed up on the beach about 100 years ago. And in volume #8 Goku is training with Karin who tells Goku that about 300 years earlier Kame Sennin was able to reach the top.

But I don't think this proves Tsuru Sennin is equally old quite yet. Being an "old rival" of a guy who's over 300 years old could mean they've been rivals when Kame Sennin was 150-250 YO. I haven't read this portion of the manga in a couple years but I think it's only with the revelation that Kame Sennin and Tsuru Sennin had the same master that we could determine that they were both over 300 YO. Still make's Tsuru Sennin hella old though.

Not only that; the claim that he's immortal in the first Dragon Ball hunt isn't even made by him. Umigame points it out after Roshi tries to justify the whole "Pafu pafu"-thing with a remark that he's an old man not long for this world and so he should be allowed to have some fun before he dies... Yet before he goes off to fight Piccolo he does indeed claim that the whole thing about drinking the water of immortality was a lie and that there's no such thing....

Does the literal translation say "there is no such thing"? Because I don't see a problem with him having drunk the Elixir of Immortality and lied about how it meant he couldn't die period.

[Vegard Aune]

Does the literal translation say "there is no such thing"? Because I don't see a problem with him having drunk the Elixir of Immortality and lied about how it meant he couldn't die period.

The actual phrasing used in Japanese is

不老不死の水などありゃせんよ…　うそじゃ…

Unless I'm reading it entirely wrong, that does seem to literally translate as "There's no such thing as a water of immortality... I was lying...", so yeah.

And for the record I'm taking this from the Kanzenban, volume 10, page 158. Chapter 145, "Muten Roshi's Resolve".

[White Oni]

What characters say isn't infallible, as they may often be lying or just overexagerating. Also the Super Saiyan-related "contradictions" are not contradictions because everything is based on a story/legend and they're just theories

Ok, I'm going to say this once, since apparently people think this is something important to address.

I am not saying the listed content are all examples of logical inconsistencies. They may very well work, as most things can, if you're willing to stretch the imagination.(parunga didn't deem some people "evil enough"/ Grampa gohan told goku he was a different age than he actually was)
HOWEVER they no less contradict prior "established facts".

I use quotations here, because like you and overs have said, nothing can be 100% established as fact, unless the character speaking is considered omniscient.

But in the same sense that AT has recently contradicted "established facts" recently, with minus and bog, he has been doing the same thing since day 1.
The purpose of this thread is to show that, since a lot of people seem to think this is something new and warrants us to discredit new content.

[ABED]

When did Gohan tell Goku he was a different age?
Many of these things aren't established facts. It was never established that Goku wasn't an alien.
Did Vegeta really think he was the strongest or was it a boast?

✪ Future Trunks says that 19 & 20 were the androids that destroyed his future... He later denies this and says it was 17 & 18. (contradiction)

Did he claim this in the manga? I don't recall this in the anime. Yep, I just looked it up, it's a continuity gaff in the manga.

I'm fine with making a list but I think it's best if we make distinctions between things like continuity errors and filling in backstory, etc.

[Marco Polo]

Well, it's the DB world, so maybe some humans can live longer.

Even if it's a continuity gaff, I would hardly call it a mess.

Agreed. Even DBGT acknowledged this when they made Pan live 100 years.

[White Oni]

When did Gohan tell Goku he was a different age?
Many of these things aren't established facts. It was never established that Goku wasn't an alien.
Did Vegeta really think he was the strongest or was it a boast?

✪ Future Trunks says that 19 & 20 were the androids that destroyed his future... He later denies this and says it was 17 & 18. (contradiction)

Did he claim this in the manga? I don't recall this in the anime. Yep, I just looked it up, it's a continuity gaff in the manga.

I'm fine with making a list but I think it's best if we make distinctions between things like continuity errors and filling in backstory, etc.

Grampa gohan tells goku his age and that's the root of all statements about goku's age.

In DB minus however, goku's established age was brought into question, leading some to believe grampa gohan was wrong when he aged goku.

[The Tori-bot]

Have we ever seen an Earthling die of natural causes in Dragon Ball? Actually, are there any older human characters with confirmed ages who aren't absurdly old by our standards? Maybe that's just an (extremely fit/ki-using) Earthling's natural lifespan in the Dragon World.

[Li'l Lemmy]

What characters say isn't infallible, as they may often be lying or just overexagerating. Also the Super Saiyan-related "contradictions" are not contradictions because everything is based on a story/legend and they're just theories

Ok, I'm going to say this once, since apparently people think this is something important to address.

This is unnecessary. If you want to convey a sense of urgency, let your choice of words rather than their size accomplish the needed tone. We are all capable of reading normal text.


~Da Lemmy

[White Oni]

What characters say isn't infallible, as they may often be lying or just overexagerating. Also the Super Saiyan-related "contradictions" are not contradictions because everything is based on a story/legend and they're just theories

Ok, I'm going to say this once, since apparently people think this is something important to address.

This is unnecessary. If you want to convey a sense of urgency, let your choice of words rather than their size accomplish the needed tone. We are all capable of reading normal text.


~Da Lemmy

It has already been worded well by herms, apparently that wasn't enough.

So to make sure everyone reading noticed, I made the font a little bigger.

What's unnessessry is making a big deal about a none issue.

[ABED]

Grampa gohan tells goku his age and that's the root of all statements about goku's age.

I don't ever recall that being a thing. The only time I remember Goku's age coming up is when he tells Bulma, and then later realizes he's a year younger because he couldn't count properly.

[White Oni]

Grampa gohan tells goku his age and that's the root of all statements about goku's age.

I don't ever recall that being a thing. The only time I remember Goku's age coming up is when he tells Bulma, and then later realizes he's a year younger because he couldn't count properly.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I can't remember if goku says that gohan told him his age, or if I just assumed that. Either way, goku was wrong about his age, it we are to make sense of the events in minus, or so I've been told.

[ABED]

Yes, Goku was wrong about his age, but he corrects himself at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

[White Oni]

Yes, Goku was wrong about his age, but he corrects himself at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

No, I'm saying that age, the one mentioned at the 21st TB was wrong.

In other words, he was wrong twice/ He never had a correct age in mind.

[ABED]

Fair enough, Toriyama contradicted himself, I'm going with what he originally said, it makes a lot more sense. Also, Roshi tells Goku that Gohan found him when he was a baby. Either Toriyama doesn't consider the story canon, or he forgot about his own continuity.

[White Oni]

Fair enough, Toriyama contradicted himself, I'm going with what he originally said, it makes a lot more sense. Also, Roshi tells Goku that Gohan found him when he was a baby. Either Toriyama doesn't consider the story canon, or he forgot about his own continuity.

This is the thing though, this too can be excused, like all the other things on the list.

Someone was lying, someone was misinformed, someone was ____.

Was is it acceptable for DB and DBZ but not recent work?

[ABED]

I didn't pass judgment on this issue, just stated a fact.

[Mewzard]

Fair enough, Toriyama contradicted himself, I'm going with what he originally said, it makes a lot more sense. Also, Roshi tells Goku that Gohan found him when he was a baby. Either Toriyama doesn't consider the story canon, or he forgot about his own continuity.

Technically, he was a baby in DB Minus, only a baby of three years old (I checked the chapter to make sure, and three years old is still considered a baby *though a big one*), and not a newborn baby. Also, Saiyans grow weird (Goku just grew giant off screen somewhere, Goten and Trunks look about the same years after the end of the Buu Saga, etc), so it's all relative.