Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

[Kamiccolo9]

Major villains*, my bad.

Why would anyone consider 19 and 20 to be "major villains?" Sure, Gero could be considered one, but in the same way that Commander Red was a major villain, not as a fighter.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't 19 and 20 supposed to be the main villains initially, but the editor didn't like the way they looked, so that's why Toriyama made No. 17 and 18? I thought I read that somewhere.

[Kamiccolo9]

Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't 19 and 20 supposed to be the main villains initially, but the editor didn't like the way they looked, so that's why Toriyama made No. 17 and 18? I thought I read that somewhere.

I don't see why "what they were supposed to be" is at all relevant, since that's not what ended up happening. In-Universe, they were nothing.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I wouldn't call them 'nothing'

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P14.1
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

and based on Tenshinhan's reaction this Goku should be > Yardrat Goku, who's >/>> Mecha arc Trunks, who's >> Mecha Freeza, who's > 100% Freeza

[Kamiccolo9]

I wouldn't call them 'nothing'

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P14.1
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

and based on Tenshinhan's reaction this Goku should be > Yardrat Goku, who's >/>> Mecha arc Trunks, who's >> Mecha Freeza, who's > 100% Freeza

In the grand scheme of things, they're nothing. I'm not talking about power, I'm talking about relevance. Aside from Gero being the one who made the Androids, 19 and 20 aren't relevant to anything aside from their initial appearance.

Mecha Freeza never powered up, and Tenshinhan never sensed 100% Organic Freeza anyway. Likewise, Goku never fully powered up against Trunks, and Tenshinhan doesn't have SSJ Namek Goku to compare him to. If this comparison had come from, say, Gohan, then it might have some weight behind it, but Tenshinhan is uninformed. He's just seeing "BIG POWAH," not mentally comparing every new power to every previous one in his head.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

In the mecha Freeza saga, Tenshinhan felt Goku's ki when Goku transformed for Trunks and Trunks tested him. Nothing suggests Goku was suppressed there.

Tenshinhan's reaction could either be that Goku ATM was even greater than the power he sensed from Yardrat Goku, or Toriyama's forgetfulness

[Kamiccolo9]

In the mecha Freeza saga, Tenshinhan felt Goku's ki when Goku transformed for Trunks and Trunks tested him. Nothing suggests Goku was suppressed there.

Tenshinhan's reaction could either be that Goku ATM was even greater than the power he sensed from Yardrat Goku, or Toriyama's forgetfulness

You mean, other than the fact that he wasn't actually fighting, nor did he power up, nor did anyone (Gohan) point him out as being any stronger there?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Wait, are you talking about Mecha Freeza arc or the Android arc?

[Kamiccolo9]

Wait, are you talking about Mecha Freeza arc or the Android arc?

Mecha Freeza. When Trunks swung his sword at Goku. Neither of them had any reason to be at full strength there.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Ah, ok.

I'm not sure SSJ 1 could be suppressed at that point, not until MSSJ was introduced, although I'm not saying that's fact.

And nothing really suggests them to be suppressed, Trunks wanted to test Goku, so that'd be pointless if they're both suppressed.

Like right here, I see no reason to think both are suppressing:

Spoiler:

[Kamiccolo9]

Ah, ok.

I'm not sure SSJ 1 could be suppressed at that point, not until MSSJ was introduced, although I'm not saying that's fact.

And nothing really suggests them to be suppressed, Trunks wanted to test Goku, so that'd be pointless if they're both suppressed.

Like right here, I see no reason to think both are suppressing:

Spoiler:

Trunks didn't know how strong Goku was. If Trunks had gone all-out, and accidentally cut Goku and half, well, oops. There goes the whole plan.

That's enough reason for him to not go all-out right there.

[RandomGuy96]

Remember Yamcha's comment "Goku's ki is so high, and he's not even fighting!"?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

That's enough reason for him to not go all-out right there.

Yes, and as I've said before: Holding back isn't the same thing as suppressing.

[Kamiccolo9]

That's enough reason for him to not go all-out right there.

Yes, and as I've said before: Holding back isn't the same thing as suppressing.

And as I have shown you, they are synonyms. Argue with the dictionary, not me.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Suppressing means you're actively lowering your power to a certain level. Holding back doesn't require the lowering of your power level, but your attacks can seem as if you're at a lower level.

Suppression can always fall under holding back, but holding back doesn't always fall under suppression. They can be very similar, but they're different.

[Kamiccolo9]

Suppressing means you're actively lowering your power to a certain level. Holding back doesn't require the lowering of your power level, but your attacks can seem as if you're at a lower level.

Suppression can always fall under holding back, but holding back doesn't always fall under suppression. They can be very similar, but they're different.

So, making an arbitrary distinction that supports your argument, yet is entirely made up and not supported by anything except itself, and going against the actual meaning of the words. Right.

I'm going with the dictionary.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Can you answer me a question?

[Kamiccolo9]

Can you answer me a question?

Go for it. And then, give me an example from the manga where someone is confirmed to be at full power, yet not using their full power.

[RandomGuy96]

I think he's trying to say that there's a difference between not hitting as hard as you can/not moving as fast as you can and actually lowering your battle power. The former is what Nappa did to not cave in Ten's skull with a kick, as well as what Recoome tried and failed to do with Krillin, while the latter is what Goku did when he first arrived on the scene with a battle power of 5,000. Like, just because you're at full power doesn't mean you always have to be throwing your hardest punches and moving at a sprint.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Remember 50% Freeza vs. Goku? Where Freeza was 20x stronger than Goku, Goku couldn't land a punch, and Freeza's punches didn't take Goku's head off there?

Was Freeza suppressed or holding back?

Remember SSJ 2 Gohan vs. Cell? Where Gohan could've finished Cell off but he didn't?

Was Gohan suppressing or holding back?